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Topic: Top of the Pops on BBC Four - Thread Two.

Started by Dr Rock, August 26, 2018, 02:21:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

non capisco

I dunno, I don't think there was much tinny about 'You Spin Me Round'. That thing took no prisoners. I suppose it helped it was a force of nature like Pete Burns fronting it and not Rick Astley or Sonia.

buzby

#991
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on April 21, 2019, 11:43:38 PM
I'm incredibly sorry to have to do this Buzby, but that's an RK100S.
That's what I get for watching without my glasses! Though it's a Korg RK100 from 1984 - the RK100S is a recreation of the original (with integrated synth, as the RK100 was only a MIDI controller) that released in 2014.

Quote from: non capisco on April 22, 2019, 12:43:59 AM
I dunno, I don't think there was much tinny about 'You Spin Me Round'. That thing took no prisoners. I suppose it helped it was a force of nature like Pete Burns fronting it and not Rick Astley or Sonia.
I agree. The problem with the later 'hit factory' stuf is that they were literally bashing trackso out on a production line, with the same sounds and same production tricks and techniques getting resued over and over again. The stuff that came before that had some time spent on it which allowed them to make them sound different. Listen to Toy Boy and Never Gonna Give You Up in this week's episode - the choruses in particular are obviously all coming from the same synth patches and and drum machine samples.

Pauline Walnuts

It was quite odd that often the early SAW tracks were the best things on TotPs, only now (in the repeats being shown) are we seeing the true terror of their reign.

northernrebel

I'm already nostalgic for the halcyon SAW days of 'Showing Out' and 'You Spin Me Right Round'. A classic's a classic.

Rick Astley - very iconic sounding, and utterly 1987, but sadly drab somehow. It has no fire in its belly.

On an unrelated note, Mötley Crüe made me laugh my head off - the excesses of poodle rock. And in the video I could hardly tell the fellas from the girls girls girls.

I felt shortchanged not seeing Jacko. Even post-post-Neverland, a classic's a classic #2. 'I Just Can't Stop Loving You' was the start of the saccharine overload that was to stymie Jackson's talent*, but it's still a great and memorable tune.

*Or did the tooth decay set in earlier?? Hmm

buzby

Quote from: daf on April 19, 2019, 09:10:10 PM
20 August 1987: Presenters: Janice Long & Steve Wright
At least Steve is safe from Janice - she's got standards, after all.
Quote
(20) WAX – Bridge To Your Heart
Two titans of seventies pop unmasked. Gold and Gouldman had been working together since 10cc split in 1983 - Gold guested on their 1981 album Ten Out Of 10 and had been asked to join permanently but declined. After the split Gouldman reconnected with Gold and invited him over to his home in Cheshire to work on some tracks together. He ended up staying for 7 months and they recorded enough tracks for an album. They decided on the name Common Knowledge and released two singles in 1984 - the very Joel-like Don't Break My Heart and more synth-pop ballad Victoria, though niether made a dent in the chart so the album release was shelved.

At the insistence of Gouldman's manager they reconvened in 1985 to record another album's worth of tracks, this time under the name Wax. The first single Ball And Chain was released in 1985 but again failed to trouble the charts. The follow-up Right Between The Eyes released in april 1986 had some success, reaching #43 in the US but only #60 here, and the album Magnetic Heaven reached #101 un the US charts. The final two singles Shadows Of Love and Systematic went back to making no impression, however.

They decided to give it another go in 1987, recording another album titled American English. The eponymous lead single continued their poor chart run. This was the second single, released on the 6th of July (the album was to be released at the end of August), and finally got them a hit in the UK, mainland Europe and Australia (but again did nothing in the US). Unfortunately it was their only real success over here , as the follow-up single In Some Other World did nothing, and only one single from their third and final album A Hundred Thousand in Fresh Notes barely scraped into the top 100 in 1989.

I really like this track, with the bouncy arrangement, catchy chorus, fakeout intro and the way Gold calls out the 'horn' solo (the only thing I dislike, as it's a really bad sampled sax, which Gold mimes to). For their appearance Gold has a gaffa'd E-Mu Emax.
Quote
(18) FIVE STAR – Whenever You're Ready
Not one of their best, this - it's sounding a bit old hat for 1987. The same old dance moves getting trotted out again too. The main thing catching my eye is the disparity between the width of Denise's shoulderpads compared to her waist. Was she anorexic? She looks like she would snap in half if she went out in a strong wind.
Quote
(23) SHERRICK – Just Call
He's no Alenander O'Neal, that's for sure. That badly-sampled slap bass just brings back the horrors of the Seinfeld theme.
Quote
(21) BON JOVI – Never Say Goodbye
Really just no.
Quote
(4) SINITTA – Toy Boy
Alright Nureyev, put the plums away!
you can see what they have had for their dinner! Was this the first appearance of cycling shorts for male dancers on Ver Pops? As mentioned previously, this is an early example of SAW cookie-cutter production - it's all downhill from here.
Quote
(2) SPAGNA – Call Me (+ scrolling credits - there's posh!!)
Bloody DX7 parping brass - can someone please send the Italo producers some Roland D50s ASAP! Amazingly, the official video was filmed in Nottingham, around Belvoir Castle and rhe Ritzy nightclub.  There's even shots of a BT GPT Payphone 500 in the over-literal shots relating to the title..

daf

Quote from: buzby on April 25, 2019, 09:55:33 PM
Wax (. . .)

I really like this track, with the bouncy arrangement, catchy chorus, fakeout intro and the way Gold calls out the 'horn' solo

Isn't it great!

I remember this from the time - My sister had it on the chunky Hits 7 double tape . . . no memory of the rest of the compilation - I think we must have been constantly rewinding it just to hear that one track!

daf

27 August 1987: Presenter: Gary Davies

(23) THEN JERICO – The Motive
Now Ponytail
(2) PET SHOP BOYS & DUSTY SPRINGFIELD – What Have I Done To Deserve This? (video)
You're talking about that new plastic hooter, right?


https://www.flickr.com/photos/51106326@N00/sets/72157664255330154

(6) WET WET WET – Sweet Little Mystery
Marti Grinning Wide
(18) BLACK – Wonderful Life
Colin Singing Live
(28) T'PAU – Heart & Soul
Sing Song and Prosper
(1) RICK ASTLEY – Never Gonna Give You Up
The Le-Willows Shuffle
(13) PRINCE & SHEENA EASTON – U Got The Look (video / credits)
Big Time!

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: buzby on April 25, 2019, 09:55:33 PM
Bloody DX7 parping brass - can someone please send the Italo producers some Roland D50s ASAP! Amazingly, the official video was filmed in Nottingham, around Belvoir Castle and rhe Ritzy nightclub.  There's even shots of a BT GPT Payphone 500 in the over-literal shots relating to the title..

lol at the Suzuki.

Gulftastic


DrGreggles

Quote from: daf on April 25, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
(6) WET WET WET – Sweet Little Mystery

A smug, gurning prick Pellow may be, but I think the Wets did some decent stuff in their early days. SLM is a good little pop song.

Dr Rock

Strong episode there. My memory of the time, as a goth who could also appreciate Mel & Kim's Showing Out, is that the townies must be listening Never Gonna Give You Up and thinking 'this is the fucking shit! The best song ever recorded!!' And indeed they did.


Norton Canes

Yep, a much better episode then the last couple of washouts.


Quote from: daf on April 25, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
(23) THEN JERICO – The Motive

The anthem indie band for people who thought The Alarm were a bit too edgy but U2 had sold out. Proper banger though.

Quote from: daf on April 25, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
(2) PET SHOP BOYS & DUSTY SPRINGFIELD – What Have I Done To Deserve This? (video)

Everything in this video reeks cool - especially Chris's dance cameo - except, unfortunately, Dusty herself, usually a paragon of cool but here just looking too... 1987.

Quote from: daf on April 25, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
(18) BLACK – Wonderful Life

He just about gets to that high note

Quote from: daf on April 25, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
(28) T'PAU – Heart & Soul

A mic time (sorry, best I could do)

Quote from: daf on April 25, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
(13) PRINCE & SHEENA EASTON – U Got The Look (video / credits)

Sheena E!


I see we lost the Breakers this week, due to the surfeit of live performances I guess.

poodlefaker

Quote from: DrGreggles on April 26, 2019, 08:08:08 AM
A smug, gurning prick Pellow may be, but I think the Wets did some decent stuff in their early days. SLM is a good little pop song.

...with help from Van Morrison and John Martyn, who both got paid off.

buzby

Quote from: poodlefaker on April 26, 2019, 10:30:58 AM
...with help from Van Morrison and John Martyn, who both got paid off.
It should be noted that they later rewrote the lyrics of the second verse to remove Van Morrison's credit for ripping off Sense Of Wonder (later pressings of the single and the version that appeared on Popped In, Souled Out and all subsequent albums and compilations have the changed lyrics - similar to the situation with the Heather Small re-recording of Ride On TIme). The John Martyn Sweet Little Mystery rip was a bit more fundamental to the song though, and as part of the settlement he got 20% of the publishing royalty in the UK and 40% in the US, and Pellow's lyrics credit was removed.

They did it again on Angel Eyes, nicking lyrics off Squeeze's Heartbreaking World which led to Chris Difford suing and  getting a writing credit. Years later Difford was asked to write lyrics for them and he became good friends with Pellow as they were both recovering drug addicts, eventually becoming his manager (Pellow was living in Difford's house at one point).

daf

#1004
3 September 1987: Presenter: Mike Smith

(21) SQUEEZE – Hourglass
It's a Tube Takeover!!
(20) LEVERT – Casanova
Le Turquoise
(27) THE HOUSEMARTINS – Me & The Farmer
"The Jools Holland Sketch"
(15) CLIFF RICHARD – Some People
Chubby Coffin Corridor
(30) THE CULT – Wild Flower (video)
Jumbo Crucifix
(34) JOHNNY HATES JAZZ – I Don't Want To Be A Hero
Lapel Gong


https://www.flickr.com/photos/51106326@N00/sets/72157666706487435

(1) RICK ASTLEY – Never Gonna Give You Up
Brave choice, those white trousers!
(3) THE FAT BOYS & THE BEACH BOYS – Wipeout (video / credits)
Surf's Down

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/29acfa7a1ab0a8b8e75bf5edc01e059620190425064622/7e7b68

(better quality, but slightly "squeezed" version):
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/fcd0b6646a307ea98ab3715b776c987220190425061602/82dca0

(youtube version) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmsFgDvQ14Q

3 things I like about the Fat Boys Wipeout song and its video [found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-kAnNgqN9o]

1. They do that Beastie Boys style everyone in on the last syl-la-BALL thing

2. Not only are the Beach Boys in it, they do the scratching. In pith helmets.

3. The boxing match introduction.

Also of note: Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini cameos in the video. He gets killed at the end of the 3rd Dirty Dozen sequel and is mourned by Sloth and Winston Zeddemore.

Jockice

Quote from: buzby on April 26, 2019, 11:36:38 AM

They did it again on Angel Eyes, nicking lyrics off Squeeze's Heartbreaking World which led to Chris Difford suing and  getting a writing credit. Years later Difford was asked to write lyrics for them and he became good friends with Pellow as they were both recovering drug addicts, eventually becoming his manager (Pellow was living in Difford's house at one point).

Difford isn't very complimentary about Pellow (or indeed the other WWW members) in his autobiography. Worth reading.

The Culture Bunker

"Wonderful Life" is one of my favourite pop songs of the 80s. Great video, too. But in commercial terms, only one more top 40 sighting for Black/Colin - I've not heard any of his follow-up album to judge whether he lost his knack for writing pop songs, or he was a victim of trends moving on.

And, yeah, despite the singer being a bit of a bell-end, that Then Jericho song is pretty good.

Strange that a very weak episode, 20.8.87, can be followed by a strong one. Probably suggests a transitional period.

DrGreggles

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on April 26, 2019, 06:35:02 PM
"Wonderful Life" is one of my favourite pop songs of the 80s.

That'll be because it's fucking great.

daf

10 September 1987: Presenters: Simon Bates & Peter Powell

(5) T'PAU – Heart & Soul”
Ginger Explosion
(24) LEVEL 42 – It's Over
Check out the guns, Ladies!!
(32) W.A.S.P. – Scream Until You Like It
A Man's Bra (Prance like a ninny)
(12) WAX – Bridge To Your Heart
10 GG
(29) JONATHAN BUTLER – Lies
What the Butler Sang (live)
(1) RICK ASTLEY – Never Gonna Give You Up
High Waister



(4) U2 – Where The Streets Have No Name (video / credits)
. . . CH-ch-CH-ch-CH-ch-Chinnnng . . .

buzby

#1011
Quote from: daf on April 25, 2019, 10:18:07 PM
27 August 1987: Presenter: Gary Davies

(23) THEN JERICO – The Motive
It's all a bit Simple Minds-wannabe, this, and frankly one Jim Kerr is one too many.
Quote
(2) PET SHOP BOYS & DUSTY SPRINGFIELD – What Have I Done To Deserve This?
A fantastic record - Tennant's dry, detached vocals perfectly intermesh with Dusty's soulful emoting. Great arrangement and production from Mendelsohn and Hague. too

It was co-written with veteran US songwriter Allee Willis  whose other co-writing credits included Boogie Wonderland and September for Earth, Wind & Fire, Neutron Dance for The Pointer Sisters and she would go on to co-write I'll Be There For You with The Rembrandts. She came to work with the PSBs via a roundabout route - their manager Tom Watson was over in LA arranging their US publsihing deal, and a friend of Willis' at MCA Records who collected her art (Willis is also a painter) met with Watson who also collected art and he arranged to come and see Willis to buy some paintings. While he was there he asked  to fly her over to London to paint a portrait of the Boys for their fan club stationery.

During the sitting, she mentioned to Tennant and Lowe that she was also a songwriter, and while they were chatting the penny eventually dropped with Neil and he said 'Oh my god, you're not the "A. Willis" on all those Earth, Wind & Fire albums, are you?" and they asked her to work on a song with them. They had always wanted to record a duet with Dusty Srpingfield as far back as the recording of Please, and as Allee had worked with her in the past it was decided to write something they could record together. She stayed an extra week in London to finish it, and then used her contacts to help the Boys persuade Dusty to record it with them.

The video was directed by Eric Watson, who had directed a number of their previous videos (Opportunities, West End Girls, Love Comes Quickly and Suburbia). He cleverly teases Dusty's appearance, making it look like she was filmed separately until she appears onstage with them at the end (she does seem to have borrowed Spagna's wig though).
Quote
(18) BLACK – Wonderful Life
Colin singing live again, though the studio sound mix is very flat - a similar problem to what New Order suffered a couple of weeks ago. This really is one of the classic songs of the 80s (if not all time) ,and it's a travesty it was not a bigger hit. As mentioned in the discussion around Sweetest Smile, this was actually a re-release after he signed to A&M, with the original release on the Bootle-based indie Ugly Man reaching #42 the previous September. The two versions are virtually identical, except for the A&M release having predictably slightly more polished production.

As mentioned by The Culture Bunker, the video is excellent. It was shot around the Mersey Estuary, and shows that undercranked black and white film can even make New Brighton (the art deco prom shelters and lighthouse), Wallasey (the promenade), Garston Docks (the ship sailing past behind him) and Colin's home town of Southport (the funfair and beach scenes) look classy.
Quote
(28) T'PAU – Heart & Soul
Like Wonderful Life, this was it's second go around in the UK charts. It was initially released as their debut single in April, but never made it into the UK chart. In the US it was picked up to soundtrack a Pepe Jeans cinema commercial and entered the Billboard chart at #91 at the beginning of May, eventually peaking at #4 on the 4th of August. This exposure prompted Siren to re-release it in the UK at the beginning of August, and it eventually peaked at #4 on the 19th of September. It went on to be a major hit worldwide,

I don't care what anyone says, this is a banger of a tune - the production is excellent, as are pint-sized powerhouse (and ex-resident of Huyton) Decker's vocals but my favourite part is the rarely-used device of simultaneous vocal tracks with different melodies. I will also admit to having a bit of a crush on her at this time (though the follow-up single was nowhere near as interesting).
Quote
(13) PRINCE & SHEENA EASTON – U Got The Look (video / credits)
This is obviously a banger as well. Who would have thought Sheena Easton of all people would end up as Prince's muse?

Norton Canes

Quote from: buzby on April 26, 2019, 10:47:20 PM
I don't care what anyone says, this is a banger of a tune - the production is excellent

As showcased by the excellent extended mix

The Culture Bunker

Quote from: buzby on April 26, 2019, 10:47:20 PMAs mentioned by The Culture Bunker, the video is excellent. It was shot around the Mersey Estuary, and shows that undercranked black and white film can even make New Brighton (the art deco prom shelters and lighthouse), Wallasey (the promenade), Garston Docks (the ship sailing past behind him) and Colin's home town of Southport (the funfair and beach scenes) look classy.
Colin's contemporaries (I guess?) It's Immaterial did a similar job when they recorded 'New Brighton' for their second album a couple of years after this. Made the place seem kind of romantic - I've never been near the place to break the illusion. (It's Immaterial are thanked in the sleeve notes to Black's Wonderful Life album, incidentally).

I am a bit surprised 'Wonderful Life' wasn't even a small hit in the States.

buzby

#1014
Quote from: daf on April 26, 2019, 12:14:39 PM
3 September 1987: Presenter: Mike Smith
Check out  that gormless looking tit stood behind Smiffy, staring into the camera like a serial killer!
Quote
(21) SQUEEZE – Hourglass
Blimey, it's keyboard-tastic. Mr Boogie Woogie stylings has a Yamaha CP70 and a 1979-vintage Korg CX3 electronic organ. Andy Metcalfe's keyboard rack has 2 DX7s and what looks like Holland's spare Korg CX3. This was a bit of a late-period comeback - they had last troubled the Top 40 with Labelled With Love in 1981. It has an insanely catchy chanted chorus which no doubt helped. The Dali-inspired video was directed by Ade Edmondson.
Quote
(20) LEVERT – Casanova
'Dance track of the moment'? Bloody awful.
Quote
(27) THE HOUSEMARTINS – Me & The Farmer
"The Jools Holland Sketch"
Excruciatingly unfunny. We do get a better look a the CX3 though.
Quote
(15) CLIFF RICHARD – Some People
Piss off Kitty.
Quote
(30) THE CULT – Wild Flower (video)
All pretence of Goth gone now - they have turned into an AC/DC tribute band.
Quote
(34) JOHNNY HATES JAZZ – I Don't Want To Be A Hero
KEY CHANGE
The Emax is making great inroads as the Emulator II replacement.

The Culture Bunker

'Hourglass' also gave Squeeze the US top 20 hit that 'Tempted' should have been. They followed it up with '853-5937', another decent sized hit over the pond, which Difford and Tillbrook are so embarrassed by that it didn't appear on the Greatest Hits album that I picked up in the mid 90s.

The guy I write/record the odd song with found an Emax amongst his dad's old music stuff the other day. Half tempted to see if we can fire it up to see what we can do with it (not much, I expect).

buzby

#1016
Quote from: The Culture Bunker on April 26, 2019, 11:12:59 PM
Colin's contemporaries (I guess?) It's Immaterial did a similar job when they recorded 'New Brighton' for their second album a couple of years after this. Made the place seem kind of romantic - I've never been near the place to break the illusion. (It's Immaterial are thanked in the sleeve notes to Black's Wonderful Life album, incidentally).

I am a bit surprised 'Wonderful Life' wasn't even a small hit in the States.

New Brighton at that time was a bit down on it's luck - a faded seaside resort that was just about hanging on (it's arguably never really recovered, though it's smartened itself up in recent years). Around the same time it was (in)famously documented in Martin Parr's The Last Resort photo collection (though I maintain there was an element of staging involved in his photographs - Tom Wood's pictures of the place in the same era are nowhere near as exploitative or sneering).

It's Immaterial, Black and  The Christians were all good friends, having all been part of the 'second wave' of the early 80s Liverpool scene where they played on the same bills. Colin's memorial service at the Anglican Cathedral was like a who's who of  80s Liverpool musicians.

After writing the entry for Wonderful Life, I was minded to dig out my 12" copy of his early David Motion-produced single Hey Presto. It is amazing, and inexplicable how it never did anything chart-wise  The 12" only B-side Liquid Dream is my favourite track on it though.

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on April 26, 2019, 11:43:52 PM
The guy I write/record the odd song with found an Emax amongst his dad's old music stuff the other day. Half tempted to see if we can fire it up to see what we can do with it (not much, I expect).
If you are lucky the floppy drive will still be working (at least they used 3.5" instead of the 5.25" ones the Emulators used). If you are really lucky it might be one with the SCSI interface and hard disk upgrade.

DrGreggles

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on April 26, 2019, 11:43:52 PM
'Hourglass' also gave Squeeze the US top 20 hit that 'Tempted' should have been. They followed it up with '853-5937', another decent sized hit over the pond, which Difford and Tillbrook are so embarrassed by that it didn't appear on the Greatest Hits album that I picked up in the mid 90s.

Which they performed on Jim'll Fix It... with my sister!

MidnightShambler

Quote from: buzby on April 27, 2019, 12:00:11 AM
New Brighton at that time was a bit down on it's luck - a faded seaside resort that was just about hanging on (it's arguably never really recovered, though it's smartened itself up in recent years). Around the same time it was (in)famously documented in Martin Parr's The Last Resort photo collection (though I maintain there was an element of staging involved in his photographs - Tom Wood's pictures of the place in the same era are nowhere near as exploitative or sneering).

It's Immaterial, Black and  The Christians were all good friends, having all been part of the 'second wave' of the early 80s Liverpool scene where they played on the same bills. Colin's memorial service at the Anglican Cathedral was like a who's who of  80s Liverpool musicians.

After writing the entry for Wonderful Life, I was minded to dig out my 12" copy of his early David Motion-produced single Hey Presto. It is amazing, and inexplicable how it never did anything chart-wise  The 12" only B-side Liquid Dream is my favourite track on it though.
If you are lucky the floppy drive will still be working (at least they used 3.5" instead of the 5.25" ones the Emulators used). If you are really lucky it might be one with the SCSI interface and hard disk upgrade.

I live in New Brighton and in 1987 it was nowhere near hanging on, it was completely gone, as had most of Merseyside. But New Brighton was a particular wreck, Victoria Road was almost completely deserted, the place was full of heroin, all the bars and clubs had more or less closed and the outdoor funfair was gone. The outdoor baths had another couple of years until the storm knocked it down in 1990. The Black video made it look much more idyllic than it was. And although there was an element of staging in The Last Resort I agree, the place really was a shithole by then.

But now it's totally recovered, big new development on the prom, bespoke bars and restaurants, the Victoria Quarter renovation, the beach is totally clean, gigs at Fort Perch Rock, its buzzing again.

buzby

Quote from: MidnightShambler on April 27, 2019, 01:41:49 AM
I live in New Brighton and in 1987 it was nowhere near hanging on, it was completely gone, as had most of Merseyside. But New Brighton was a particular wreck, Victoria Road was almost completely deserted, the place was full of heroin, all the bars and clubs had more or less closed and the outdoor funfair was gone. The outdoor baths had another couple of years until the storm knocked it down in 1990. The Black video made it look much more idyllic than it was. And although there was an element of staging in The Last Resort I agree, the place really was a shithole by then.

But now it's totally recovered, big new development on the prom, bespoke bars and restaurants, the Victoria Quarter renovation, the beach is totally clean, gigs at Fort Perch Rock, its buzzing again.
We were still going there for days out in the summer holidays, the indoor fair and the Golden Goose arcade at the old pier entrance was still there, as was the baths (though as you say it met it's end in 1990). The model boating lake was always my first destination from getting off the train though. The Floral Pavillion and Chelsea Reach nightclub were also still going I think (Radio Merseyside were always promoting concerts at the Pavillion).

It's all about perspective I think - to a kid from the Norris Green council estate (which was also awash with heroin, like most fo Merseyside at the time) New Brighton still looked like an exciting and fun place for a day out (though I do remember if you went on the beach round by the Golden Goose there would be raw sewage everywhere as it was before the Mersey Interceptor sewer schemes had been completed on both sides of the river).

Southport had a lot more going for it at that time (helped by the locals being a bit more better off), but I'd agree that these days New Brighton is a much nicer place to be after all the work the council has put in to it's redevelopment (Southport is probably in a worse state now, ironically).