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Eminem - Kamikaze

Started by up_the_hampipe, August 31, 2018, 09:00:56 AM

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alan nagsworth

Quote from: Z on September 01, 2018, 10:21:04 PM
he's able to structure rhymes and shit

You're right, he certainly does structure a lot of shit.

Anyway aside from the fact that he's a 45 year old manchild making a bratty retaliation album sniping critics of his last heap of shit album, I can't abide any piece of work in this day and age that calls someone brave enough to be open about their sexuality in the hip hop community a "faggot".

Oh, but "that's just Eminem!" I hear you say. Is it? And that's acceptable, yeah? That makes the things he says easier to digest, does it? Imagine if Morrissey, an already-abhorred public figure, sang on his new album "There's people out there at whom, my finger, I wag it / Tyler might be a creator, but oh, he's also a faggot". Wouldn't wash, would it? No. It's not okay, and excusing it because of Eminem's stature and his artistic medium is not okay either.

Of course I'll be the first to admit that in the not-so-distant past I've listened to and enjoyed a fair whack of gangster rap which has expressed views of homophobia, misogyny and whatever else, but I'm working to cut those things out of my life - and I don't think people like Dr. Dre should be celebrated any more, because of the fucking awful things he's done - and to be spouting shit like this in 2018 when you're a fuckin' grown ass man is deplorable. He should know better. Fuck him.

Ja'moke

I mean, not to fully defend Eminem on that point, because has a pretty bad history of casually using the word "faggot", but in this instance he was referencing Tyler calling himself a "faggot", right (Tyler has used that word a whole bunch throughout his career, probably more than Eminem)? And Em is claiming he did it for the attention (and then threw in a ballsack pun for good measure).

"Tyler create nothin', I see why you called yourself a [faggot], bitch
It's not just 'cause you lack attention
It's because you worship D12's balls, you're sack-religious."



alan nagsworth

I was never a huge fan of Tyler's stuff so I'd never paid much enough attention to his personal use of the word, but that being said, it makes a lot more sense in hindsight, either because in his mind he was comfortable with his sexuality and his own right to appropriate the term, or, less comfortably, if he was aggressively using it as part of a repression of his feelings. He's clearly had a lot of emotional conflict regarding it, which is probably why he was quite coy in admitting it publicly (i.e. through flippant lyrics as opposed to a public statement, like his peer, Frank Ocean). I've no doubt that coming out as a gay/queer black man in the hip hop community would be terrifying.

All of this, however, doesn't excuse the fact that Eminem has no right to use the word, and never has. It reads as, and to me it is, a homophobic slur.

Clownbaby

#33
Aye the Tyler faggot-jab was one of the eye rolls for me. I'm not a fan of Tyler or anything but it just seemed redundant to bring his sexuality into it at all. Having listened to Tyler a fair bit while I tried to like him, he uses the word multiple times. Am I right in thinking Em and Tyler got on alright before Tyler said Walk on Water was shite? Seems like Em used the (scrambled) F word in a teasing slap-on-the-wrist way and probably thought he was fair game to use it cause Tyler used it in the past I don't know, I'm just guessing. Either way, low hanging fruit eh. I'm pretty sure he's all talk and couldn't give a shit if Tyler is gay but people will still react to that word being used and I bet it's caused a lot of the more reactionary listeners to write off the whole album out of anger about the faggot-jab. Been listening Kamikaze through a couple more times again and as much as I like the tracks I mentioned on the last page, Nice Guy, Good Guy, Normal and Venom leave me cold.

I'm fine with Em going on about mutilating his own dick and sniggering at his own bad puns but using "faggot" is the wrong side of childish (just in case anyone thinks I'm ok with that, which I'm not. I thought it was naff) especially in this damn day and age, not a big or clever move.

Ja'moke

Also, Tyler's last album is better than anything Eminem has put out since The Eminem Show.

Clownbaby

I need to give that a listen, I've never got away with Tyler to be honest but people keep telling me that even if I'm not arsed about his other stuff I may like this. I've given each album except for the new one a fair shake and from each one it always seems to be the case that I quite like one song and that's it. I like the idea of him but the music is never what I expect. It's hard to explain. Seems like a cool lad though

Ja'moke

Yeah his new one is a big departure from all his other albums. I might even call it sweet? Some really nice melodies. See You Again the stand out.

Z

Quote from: Ja'moke on September 02, 2018, 05:37:04 PM
Also, Tyler's last album is better than anything Eminem has put out since The Eminem Show.
It's better than the Eminem Show too, it's a great album, like

up_the_hampipe

Quote from: Z on September 01, 2018, 10:21:04 PM
Why'd he target Tyler btw? Seems like a really bad choice when his last album was so good

As mentioned already, Tyler has publicly talked shit about some of Em's music. He has every right to do that, so Eminem has every right to respond. A lot of artists, including Tyler, release some dogshit tunes throughout their careers, so if you have respect for an artist that influenced you so heavily, might not be a wise choice to jump on twitter when he releases a song you're not feeling.

Ja'moke

Quote from: Z on September 02, 2018, 06:54:48 PM
It's better than the Eminem Show too, it's a great album, like

Nah, I put Eminem Show a close second behind the Marshall Mathers LP. I think it's Eminem at the peak of his powers at a time when his drive was unstoppable. I think he put out the first D12 album, 8 Mile, and the Eminem Show in close succession and was firing on all cylinders. An album analysing his fame and how crazy his life had become over the past couple of years. Excellent lyrics and storytelling and so many incredible songs (White America, Till I Collapse, Soldier, Saying Goodbye To Hollywood, Sing For The Moment). I love that album.

Clownbaby

Quote from: up_the_hampipe on September 02, 2018, 07:02:52 PM
As mentioned already, Tyler has publicly talked shit about some of Em's music. He has every right to do that, so Eminem has every right to respond. A lot of artists, including Tyler, release some dogshit tunes throughout their careers, so if you have respect for an artist that influenced you so heavily, might not be a wise choice to jump on twitter when he releases a song you're not feeling.

+1. I'm leggy sure Tyler can take it as well

up_the_hampipe

Quote from: alan nagsworth on September 02, 2018, 01:28:57 PM
You're right, he certainly does structure a lot of shit.

Anyway aside from the fact that he's a 45 year old manchild making a bratty retaliation album sniping critics of his last heap of shit album, I can't abide any piece of work in this day and age that calls someone brave enough to be open about their sexuality in the hip hop community a "faggot".

Oh, but "that's just Eminem!" I hear you say. Is it? And that's acceptable, yeah? That makes the things he says easier to digest, does it? Imagine if Morrissey, an already-abhorred public figure, sang on his new album "There's people out there at whom, my finger, I wag it / Tyler might be a creator, but oh, he's also a faggot". Wouldn't wash, would it? No. It's not okay, and excusing it because of Eminem's stature and his artistic medium is not okay either.

Of course I'll be the first to admit that in the not-so-distant past I've listened to and enjoyed a fair whack of gangster rap which has expressed views of homophobia, misogyny and whatever else, but I'm working to cut those things out of my life - and I don't think people like Dr. Dre should be celebrated any more, because of the fucking awful things he's done - and to be spouting shit like this in 2018 when you're a fuckin' grown ass man is deplorable. He should know better. Fuck him.

Eminem is not mocking Tyler The Creator for being gay, he's mocking him for pretending to be gay to get attention, as well as calling him a copycat. Tyler has never come out as gay. If we're going to use the lyric "I've been kissing white boys since 2004" as the basis, then we should assume he's a rapist and a murderer as well, and we can also assume that Eminem and Dr. Dre are gay lovers since Eminem once rapped "All this time me and Dre been fuckin' with hats off". Tyler has made much more sincere love songs about women he's been in love with, but again who knows. He makes it a game for people to guess what's real about him and what isn't. He says Tyler calls himself a 'faggot' because he throws that word around about himself and others.

But, of course, folks hear that word (even though you don't actually hear it, he censors himself) and get mad. I get it, he could have found a different road to make his point, but let's actually look at what he says before we kick off like Eminem is this old homophobe going after this brave young homosexual in the hip-hop industry. It's nonsense.

Ja'moke

I would say "Garden Shed" is the more appropriate track for evidence of Tyler coming out.

up_the_hampipe

Quote from: Ja'moke on September 02, 2018, 08:37:27 PM
I would say "Garden Shed" is the more appropriate track for evidence of Tyler coming out.

He has said those lyrics were misheard and misinterpreted.

up_the_hampipe

On a lighter note, this impression of Eminem's modern flow that's been circulating has made me laugh a fair bit https://www.instagram.com/p/BnKE6G8lgY4/

Clownbaby

Quote from: up_the_hampipe on September 03, 2018, 10:00:29 AM
On a lighter note, this impression of Eminem's modern flow that's been circulating has made me laugh a fair bit https://www.instagram.com/p/BnKE6G8lgY4/

flappin in a bapkin

DukeDeMondo

Quote from: chveik on September 01, 2018, 03:25:27 PM
Funny there's a thread about this awful album and not about the new Denzel Curry.

Well you could've started one, to be fair.

I mean TA13OO is absolutely in my Top 5 of the year so far, maybe Top 3, but it's hardly all that peculiar, that a surprise release by one of the most famous rappers on the planet would generate more interest than the latest Denzel Curry record might.

bushwick

Heard two off this. Don't like title track, the one with Joyner Lucas is okay but JL bodies Em on it, imo. Em needs to remember less is more, he sounded effortless in his early days, now he tries too hard and his super-complex rhyme patterns are ugly to listen to. Don't understand why he can't pick better beats when he will have access to the world's best producers.

When you really think about it though, how many rock acts were ever relevant after 20 years of fame? And nobody expected them to be, either. Nobody would expect a mid-90s AC/DC album to be cutting edge.

Another thing: Em is now doing the Noel Gallagher "sorry the last album was shit" bit, but at least Noel just said it in interviews. To release an album talking about how your last album was shit is gonna test your long-suffering fans innit. But that's the difference between rock and rap I guess, the reportage aspect of rap means it provides its own commentary, which is well pomo and pretty lame. He's such a big star and cultural phenomenon that he kind of has to do it, whereas Gucci Mane, say, can release countless dope tracks saying the same thing in different ways and people love him for it. Em is a victim of his own success.

Ja'moke

He didn't say Revival was shit though. He was dissing people who said it was shit.

Utter Shit

Spot on about the pop culture stuff only becoming a problem if it's not backed by anything worthwhile lyrically or musically. I heard Without Me and The Real Slim Shady back to back recently and they both still had my head nodding, and the lyrics still made me laugh...and it's not like Christina Aguilera or Fred Durst are still relevant, let alone Carson Daly.

chveik

Quote from: DukeDeMondo on September 03, 2018, 02:18:26 PM
Well you could've started one, to be fair.

I mean TA13OO is absolutely in my Top 5 of the year so far, maybe Top 3, but it's hardly all that peculiar, that a surprise release by one of the most famous rappers on the planet would generate more interest than the latest Denzel Curry record might.

Fair enough

Ja'moke

MGK first to respond to Eminem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sNCyiyIc_8

It's decent and he sounds more comfortable on a beat than Eminem. And MGK is shit, so that tells you everything.

Noodle Lizard

Actually having listened to it, it's pretty decent.  Lyrical themes aside.

up_the_hampipe

Quote from: Ja'moke on September 03, 2018, 08:59:18 PM
MGK first to respond to Eminem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sNCyiyIc_8

It's decent and he sounds more comfortable on a beat than Eminem. And MGK is shit, so that tells you everything.

This seems like a mistake.

Ja'moke

Fantano's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J34qpusEXK4&feature=youtu.be

I don't always agree with this guy, but I appreciate that he properly explains his thoughts and doesn't just follow trends. He sums up most of my problems with this album. Although I disagree with him on The Ringer being the worst track, that's probably the best on the record.

Depressed Beyond Tables


BeardFaceMan

I went off Eminem around the time of the Eminem Show album, was that around the time he stopped using Dre as much and started producing his own tracks? As amazing as Eminem is/was as a lyricist and MC, he really, really needs a producer to make the great stuff. What are some stand out tracks of his I might have missed over the last decade or so?

Clownbaby

#57
Quote from: Ja'moke on September 04, 2018, 12:48:18 PM
Fantano's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J34qpusEXK4&feature=youtu.be

I don't always agree with this guy, but I appreciate that he properly explains his thoughts and doesn't just follow trends. He sums up most of my problems with this album. Although I disagree with him on The Ringer being the worst track, that's probably the best on the record.

I like watching ol' Antwan Fantwan's reviews cause I respect his opinion even if I don't always agree with it. I would have given Kamikaze a decent 6 myself but he makes a few good points. Agree though about The Ringer. Surprised he disliked that one so much. It's my favourite track.

up_the_hampipe

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on September 04, 2018, 02:44:57 PM
I went off Eminem around the time of the Eminem Show album, was that around the time he stopped using Dre as much and started producing his own tracks? As amazing as Eminem is/was as a lyricist and MC, he really, really needs a producer to make the great stuff. What are some stand out tracks of his I might have missed over the last decade or so?

Like Toy Soldiers, Mosh, Same Song & Dance, Deja Vu, Underground, Beautiful, Bad Guy, Legacy, Love Game, Headlights, Castle, Arose, Caterpillar, Chloraseptic Remix. Those are some stand outs for me, but there's plenty of other good ones.

Malcy

Video for 'Fall'

https://youtube.com/watch?v=MfTbHITdhEI

Phone constantly going off at the start is a pain in the arse though.

Someone's has a lot of time on their hands.