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Phil Collins again

Started by TheMonk, September 12, 2018, 01:12:44 PM

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Shit Good Nose

Quote from: PaulTMA on October 31, 2018, 11:55:12 AM
The only vehemently anti-Phil people left standing are the few remaining souls who still insist Ringo is shit drummer and that the first Stereophonics album is "quite good"

Well, I still insist that Ringo is a shit drummer, BUT I quickly off-set that with acknowledging that he is the ONLY drummer for The Beatles.  All you have to do is compare Pete Best(more technically proficient)'s work with Ringo's and there's no doubt.  Also cf. Keith Moon being the ONLY drummer for The Who (although Zak Starkey hasn't done too bad, but Kenney Jones - an infinitely more gifted drummer than both - just never sounded right, did he).


But there are still some other anti-Phil people around - the Gallagher brothers, most Britpop fans, and NME (never forget the infamous editor's note after the last time they ever interviewed Phil [early-mid 90s] that said something along the lines of "if you ever say anything positive about a Phil Collins song or album or even suggest doing anything other than a capsule review, you'll be fired on the spot").  A few ignorant CaBbers are hanging in there as well, despite having their beliefs about him debunked.

There are loads of provable and verifiable stories that suggest Phil is a nice decent chap, but, aside from the odd shout out for his charity work, they never get mentioned.

SpiderChrist

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on October 31, 2018, 01:18:09 PM
Well, I still insist that Ringo is a shit drummer

and it was going so well, too.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: SpiderChrist on October 31, 2018, 01:31:08 PM
and it was going so well, too.

Well, you could have included the most important part of that sentence when you quoted me...

SpiderChrist

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on October 31, 2018, 01:33:45 PM
Well, you could have included the most important part of that sentence when you quoted me...

Yeah, but where's the fun in that?

Shit Good Nose

Why I oughtta.....(shakes fist)


It's apposite for a thread about a man who has been constantly and consistently quoted out of context for so long, I suppose.

SpiderChrist

Well, I like him. Great drummer, decent singer, good songwriter - and he signed a record token* card for me, which I stuck a £1 token in and gave to my Dad for Christmas.


*ask yer Nan

saltysnacks

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on October 31, 2018, 11:22:50 AM
The actual proper evidence strongly suggests he's not a cock at all.  As I keep saying, once you realise that every negative thing that is popularly known about him is either wrong or entirely made up, all you're left with is 80s ubiquity, people that simply don't like his music, and being duped by Chris Morris.  I don't see how any one of those can decide a person's cuntness as they don't have anything to do with him as a person.

Consider me chastened. I just assumed the stories were true, always interesting to find out when you've been taken in.

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 15, 2018, 11:57:39 PM
Everyone is going bald these days, it's all the rage, but back in the '80s it was considered unacceptable.

Calvin Harris considers sequel song.

I'm gonna see if I can turn this into a Genesis thread.

My first appreciation of them was back in '86/'87 when I was 11. I'd just got my own radio and was developing a proper obsession with pop music of the era, and Land of Confusion and Tonight, Tonight, Tonight, which had just come out, were amongst my favourites.  I gradually got to know some of the older hits like Abacab and That's All by some kind of musical osmosis, and though they didn't have the same impact on me as those two off Invisible Touch, I'd pigeonholed Genesis as a group that I liked, along with A-ha, Curiosity Killed the Cat, and whoever else was big back then.  It took me a little while to realise that Phil Collins (who I knew from his ubiquity on the radio) was the singer and drummer; his solo stuff had a totally different sound (although I also remember thinking that both Invisible Touch and That's All were solo Phil songs).

It wasn't until I got to university 8 years later that I grew to properly appreciate Genesis. I had a friend who was studying music who was their greatest cheerleader - he used to complain that some of the musical theory he was studying (figured bass among other things) was too simplistic and archaic to be applied to some Genesis compositions, and as an example he put on Mad Man Moon. As a keen musician myself, the harmonic progressions and the unusual yet natural-sounding time signatures just blew my mind.

And so it went on - I got to know the other early Phil albums, and eventually started to listen to the earlier Gabriel ones.  For me, Phil Collins had always been the voice of Genesis, and even to this day I struggle to enjoy Gabriel's vocals, given how much rougher they are. 

Favourite stuff?

- All of Trick and Wind and Wuthering. Pretty sure Trick would be one of my Desert Island Discs, I never get tired of it. The diversity of sound in that one short album is astonishing - the lullaby-like rhythms of Entangled, the grandiose and imposing sound of Dance on a Volcano, the crazy rhythm and chord progression of the middle section of Robbery, Assault and Battery, the beautiful delicacy of Mad Man Moon. It's unsurpassable in my opinion.  I managed to find it on CD from its original 1984 release recently - it's definitely worth getting hold of, compared to the more recent remasters as the mix is much nicer and has better dynamic range.

- Some of my favourite material is from the live shows in the mid to late 70s, with Collins taking vocals on early songs. Firth of Fifth, Supper's Ready and Cinema Show from Second's Out; and the In The Cage / Cinema Show medley from Three Sides Live are fantastically performed. Another beauty (not on any official release) is the live version of White Mountain from the Trick of the Tail tour.

- Inside and Out from the Stop the Pigeon EP is a lovely Hackett composition which never got the exposure it deserved.

- From the Peter Gabriel years, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway must be my favourite. It seems like his vocals were more disciplined and just altogether better on that album. Fly on a Windshield, In The Cage, Hairless Heart, all great tunes. Can't stand Counting Out Time though - I always have to skip it. I think this was even released as a single, which makes me wonder why they so often choose what seem to me the worst tracks.

Anyway, what are your Genesis highlights and lowlights? Is Who Dunnit really the worst thing they did?  (No, of course not: I Can't Dance is.)


a duncandisorderly

Quote from: Darles Chickens on October 31, 2018, 03:01:08 PM
All of Trick and Wind and Wuthering...

one of my favourite genesis songs is the collins/hackett co-write, "blood on the rooftops". it sounds like both sorts of genesis- the more proggy symphonic arrangement is there, while the structure remains compact & the song is almost brisk enough to fit with their later material, but it sits away from either the banks/gabriel compositions of the earlier band & the trying-to-be-pop of the band that (it seems to me) grudgingly accepted collins as its leader.

& of course, hackett- having become the george harrison of the group as far as songwriting credits went, upped & left soon afterwards. his revisiting of the genesis catalogue with his own band is a wonderful thing, & I've more time for him than any other member of genesis, though I like collins too. I'd recommend that his detractors have a read of his book.
I think banks is an asshole.

I think Banks is misunderstood. He comes across badly in interviews because he's so dry that he's off the scale. Case in point is when he declared seemingly without humour that, when Hackett left, they mixed him out of the Second's Out live album.  Of course they didn't, as he's everywhere on that album, but Banks doesn't really pull off this kind of thing with that much charm.

Some of my favourite Genesis songs are Banks compositions (Firth of Fifth, Mad Man Moon, One for the Vine, Robbery Assault and Battery, Heathaze), and I appreciate his unusual chords and rhythms (and as a pianist myself, I admire his technical prowess, both as a performer and a writer).  I think Hackett was a perfect complement for Banks, and for me Entangled is a perfect example of that marriage of songwriting talent.  Genesis definitely lost something when Hackett went, and it's a huge shame he's been so sidelined in their history ever since.

While I prefer Phil's vocals, there aren't that many of his songs that stand out - Blood on the Rooftops is one, and also Please Don't Ask from Duke is another which I enjoy musically even if lyrically it's a bit of a soapbox. I'm assuming that some of the glorious instrumentals, like the end of Cinema Show, had a lot of Phil's influence all over them.   I actually quite enjoy Calling all Stations (if you take it for what it is), but it demonstrates that Rutherford and Banks were definitely the driving force behind the Genesis sound by the end, as stylistically it's not that different from We Can't Dance.  In fact, without Phil's influence, it sounds less like a solo Phil album than its predecessor, which is a good thing in my opinion!


PaulTMA

Genuinely don't know if Banks is truly a knob or not, but overall he was their best writer.

Shit Good Nose

Yeah, Tony Banks is a little bit misunderstood.  As Darles says above, his ultra-dry (even for an English person) sense of humour has often left people thinking that he's a massive cunt.  The mixing Hackett out of Second's Out comment is a perfect example - following that the American media ran with it and basically reported that story as fact, when it was nothing more than a jokey comment albeit said with the cold delivery and stoney face of a Vulcan.  There's also a very popular misconception that Hackett and Banks hate each other because of what happened during the writing and recording of Wind and Wuthering.  Whilst that professional rivalry remains, behind the scenes they've always been good friends, and remain so to this day - in fact out of all of the Genesis members past and most recent they're the two that keep in the most regular contact with each other.  Admittedly that could just as much be because Hackett has long been an incredibly mellow and laid back person (no one initially mentioned the '82 reunion concert to him or invited him along [because he had just finished a long solo tour and was staying with his wife's family in Brazil, so none of them thought he'd want to do it], but rather than have a massive shit-fit about it he just phoned one of them up [can't remember who] and asked if he could join in.  In the end his flight back to the UK was delayed, so he only arrived in time for the encore, and that was only because the whole thing was running late on account of the torrential rain).

It doesn't help that the..."creative" editing of the recent doc, which even made Mike Rutherford seem like a massive cunt (which is impossible), really picks out Steve's bitterness and Tony's nonchalance, and it did its best to edge Steve out of the picture.  Literally, at several points.

As Steve has nearly always said, his effective alienating from the band was the best thing to have ever happened to and for him - aside from Gabriel, he's had the most successful and enduring career of all of them, with Phil obviously pretty much dead, Tony not really interested in having anything to do with popular music these days, and interest in Mike and the Mechanics having waned years ago.  But Steve's still slogging away playing live regularly, keeping Genesis music alive, and writing new solo material as well.

Endicott

I discovered these interviews (for the 2007 reissues) because of this thread. I think they all come across fine listening to them.

playlist here, but misses off Trespass.


PaulTMA

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on November 09, 2018, 05:00:26 PM
There's also a very popular misconception that Hackett and Banks hate each other because of what happened during the writing and recording of Wind and Wuthering.  Whilst that professional rivalry remains, behind the scenes they've always been good friends, and remain so to this day - in fact out of all of the Genesis members past and most recent they're the two that keep in the most regular contact with each other.  Admittedly that could just as much be because Hackett has long been an incredibly mellow and laid back person (no one initially mentioned the '82 reunion concert to him or invited him along [because he had just finished a long solo tour and was staying with his wife's family in Brazil, so none of them thought he'd want to do it], but rather than have a massive shit-fit about it he just phoned one of them up [can't remember who] and asked if he could join in.  In the end, his flight back to the UK was delayed, so he only arrived in time for the encore, and that was only because the whole thing was running late on account of the torrential rain).

However, this interview does essentially reveal that relations between Hackett and the remaining members were not great in the early 80s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xlsZUt1viw&t=13m38s (watch till about 16 mins)

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: PaulTMA on November 09, 2018, 06:28:57 PM
However, this interview does essentially reveal that relations between Hackett and the remaining members were not great in the early 80s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xlsZUt1viw&t=13m38s (watch till about 16 mins)

That was all started, believe it or not, by Hackett in (if memory serves) 1980, when he did a lot of badmouthing about the rest of the band in pretty much every interview he did.  They'd patched things up by late 81/early 82.

PaulTMA

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on November 09, 2018, 07:12:39 PM
That was all started, believe it or not, by Hackett in (if memory serves) 1980, when he did a lot of badmouthing about the rest of the band in pretty much every interview he did.  They'd patched things up by late 81/early 82.

Do you know of any which may be online to read?  Sounds fun!

Endicott

Interesting to discover the real intent behind Home By The Sea. I'd always assumed it to be the cry of old people trapped in an old people's home, in Hastings or Bournemouth.

https://genius.com/Genesis-home-by-the-sea-lyrics

metaltax

I thought Banks came off pretty well in his Prog magazine acceptance speech. As someone else said, he's just really dry.

https://youtu.be/OUK3QLAvH6Q

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: metaltax on November 09, 2018, 11:01:50 PM
I thought Banks came off pretty well in his Prog magazine acceptance speech. As someone else said, he's just really dry.

https://youtu.be/OUK3QLAvH6Q

Thanks for that - I haven't seen that before.

I think that's the most animated and expressive I've EVER seen him and I actually properly LOLed when he said "you're the twelfth best keyboard player in the world!"

He should do a double act with Wakeman.

gib

<tag> team in charge of Phil Collins' latest album title finish early and hit the pub <tag>

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: PaulTMA on November 09, 2018, 07:59:02 PM
Do you know of any which may be online to read?  Sounds fun!

Ignore that - I'm conflating it with Bill Bruford's comments about them during and just after the Trick tour.

Although Steve and the rest of the band were buddies again by the time of the 82 reunion.

a duncandisorderly

Quote from: Darles Chickens on November 09, 2018, 12:18:32 PM
I think Banks is misunderstood.....
Some of my favourite Genesis songs are Banks compositions (Firth of Fifth, Mad Man Moon, One for the Vine, Robbery Assault and Battery, Heathaze), and I appreciate his unusual chords and rhythms (and as a pianist myself, I admire his technical prowess, both as a performer and a writer).  I think Hackett was a perfect complement for Banks, and for me Entangled is a perfect example of that marriage of songwriting talent.  Genesis definitely lost something when Hackett went, and it's a huge shame he's been so sidelined in their history ever since.

banks is one of the rare instances wherein I can enjoy someone's work while thinking them an asshole as a person. after years of staying away from them, I've revisited the classic genesis albums, mainly on account of hackett's recent performances, where he plays genesis material rather than his own more experimental stuff- he knows which side his bread is buttered, clearly, though I've enjoyed his varied output enormously... things like the gig with evelyn glennie, especially.

they were majestic, but I'm afraid it's always going to seem to me like a power struggle that banks was going to win.

biggytitbo

♫ He's her paedo lover ♫

You'll all be singing it tomorrow.

metaltax

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on November 09, 2018, 11:14:50 PM
He should do a double act with Wakeman.

Oh Christ no. Wakeman's somehow been labelled as "funny" and he really isn't. He's got a good line in end-of-the-pier sub-Jim Davidson (with whom he's great mates) material but he comes across as an utterly humourless bastard these days, unless it's making veiled references to tits and willes.

His autobiography is pure Partridge though.

Maurice Yeatman

Quote from: metaltax on November 10, 2018, 12:44:03 PM
Oh Christ no. Wakeman's somehow been labelled as "funny" and he really isn't. He's got a good line in end-of-the-pier sub-Jim Davidson (with whom he's great mates) material but he comes across as an utterly humourless bastard these days, unless it's making veiled references to tits and willes.

His speeches always go down well even though they're interminable rehashes of old gags, and in this case https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFAqzBo6DbM#t=7m25s a horrible Bernard Manning aside directed at the young woman handing out the awards behind him.

the hum

I think somebody mentioned this in the previous Phil/Genesis thread, but I definitely warmed to him in that behind the scenes final Genesis tour doc where he seems affable, even self-deprecating towards the road crew (apart from his Spinal Tap moment driving to homeware stores in search of the perfect percussive chair), whereas Banks/Rutherford (admittedly Rutherford in particular) just come across as jaded and horribly aloof.

the hum

Also his home vids of the making of the 'shapes' album are a great little treasure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMm-08uZXfo