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Katie Hopkins files for bankruptcy [split topic]

Started by Alberon, September 17, 2018, 01:39:59 PM

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Dr Rock

I don't think she's mentally ill. What would be the disorder? Narcissism?

Bhazor


Jittlebags

Not sure. Gemma Collins on Masterchuff would be more what I'd expect a narcissist to be like. Like a female Trump, but with worse hair.

Rizla

"Katie Hopkins" - sound like a crap kids book. I know someone with a similarly Beatrix Potterish monicker and they're a cunt as well. Wasn't Terry Nutkins meant to be a cunt? Maybe that's it. Their crap names.

Replies From View


Blue Jam

#65
Quote from: Jittlebags on September 17, 2018, 10:13:59 PM
Not sure. Gemma Collins on Masterchuff would be more what I'd expect a narcissist to be like. Like a female Trump, but with worse hair.

I think Collins comes across as quite likeable... and I like her accent... I know fuck-all about her, mind...

Hopkins does have that narcissistic trait of being too proud to admit wrongdoing and apologise, like saying the word "sorry" would actually kill her. She has that much in common with Trump. Really I think she's more like Milo- someone putting on an act but not being clever enough to sustain it for very long, unlike, say, Boris Johnson with his buffoon act.

manticore

Quote from: Dr Rock on September 17, 2018, 10:07:41 PM
I don't think she's mentally ill. What would be the disorder? Narcissism?

No, Hopkins isn't mentally ill, and narcissism is a characteristic of personality, not a disease. The least one can do for shitheads is grant them responsibility for their actions and name them for what they are.

She showed some insight into the problems disabled people face when she had troubles getting around after her brain operation, but it seems she's one of those people who can't comprehend other people's suffering if she hasn't experienced it herself. There's plenty of coldness around, and it's not illness.

Zetetic

Quote from: manticore on September 17, 2018, 11:17:01 PM
No, Hopkins isn't mentally ill, and narcissism is a characteristic of personality, not a disease.

Most mental illnesses aren't characterised as 'disease'. (Most mental illnesses make themselves known through someone's personality arguably. Certainly given enough time - otherwise we're arguing for strict delineation of 'personality' from someone's affective and cognitive faculties, and very weird model of causality between them after that.)

Assuming that she's not making herself happy or other people, but continues to act in this way ... what other standard are we to find to decide that she's not unwell?

Blue Jam

Masochism... it does appear that she has a self-destructive streak, but that may be true of all self-styled hate figures. I can't believe that anyone truly wants to be hated- Hopkins, Milo etc may say "I'll get lynched for this, but..." but they live for those people who post btl to say they're brave for saying it and that they completely agree with them.

Quote from: manticore on September 17, 2018, 11:17:01 PMShe showed some insight into the problems disabled people face when she had troubles getting around after her brain operation, but it seems she's one of those people who can't comprehend other people's suffering if she hasn't experienced it herself. There's plenty of coldness around, and it's not illness.

Perhaps she's more of a sociopath then. IIRC sociopaths are unable to experience empathy, while narcissists are highly attuned to the emotions of others but simply don't care about them- could someone who actually knows about this stuff please explain?

A lot of people lack empathy and are actively proud of the fact. Hopkins strikes me as one of those people.

Zetetic

I'm not sure picking one of those words over another will help.

I suppose it's worth being clear what the point of deciding whether she's unwell or not is - and I guess it's something to do with degrees of moral judgement, pity and future expectations of her behaviour.

I find it's hard not to feel sorry for her being her at this point.

Blue Jam

I find it hard to feel sorry for her at all. Even if she is putting on an act, we are what we pretend to be.

Sebastian Cobb

Can't even be an embittered arsehole without someone saying you're mentally ill these days.

Zetetic

Quote from: Blue Jam on September 17, 2018, 11:31:37 PM
Even if she is putting on an act, we are what we pretend to be.
I do agree with that - you can't be Katie Hopkins for this long without being Kate Hopkins, as it were. That just seems quite a miserable thing to be, miserable beyond it being the sort of thing it's reasonable to want to be.

Quotebut they live for those people who post btl to say they're brave for saying it
I think there's some truth to that, and it hints at a compulsion of sorts.

Blue Jam

Hopkins definitely has that thing of having a fragile ego and being able to dish it out but totally unable to take it, but that's just your standard bully, and not all bullies are narcissists.

Zetetic

I suppose, less positively, perhaps characterising her as 'unwell' is also about deciding that it's not worth engaging with her arguments as arguments or something. That she's not to be usefully (for anyone) reasoned with entirely on her terms, maybe.

mothman

As Sean Connery once said, when a man huntsh dragonsh for long enough, he becomesh a dragon himshelf. She gazed into the abyss, and it gazed back. And made her a Nazi.

Dr Rock

Quote from: Zetetic on September 17, 2018, 11:27:54 PM
I suppose it's worth being clear what the point of deciding whether she's unwell or not is - and I guess it's something to do with degrees of moral judgement, pity and future expectations of her behaviour.

If someone puts the idea on the table I think it's simply interesting to discuss, if we're not hurting anybody.

Zetetic

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't discuss it - but that in discussing whether a word is right, you've got to think about what the impact of using it supposed to be.

A word's meaning is bound up with what it being true, or not, of something causes you do different.

Particularly for 'mental illness', I think, and 'personality disorder' (as manticore gestures at). The second of these, in specific contrast to the first, has historically been used to deny people any further help and to indicate that they're unworthy of receiving any.

Johnny Yesno

I mentioned it over in Comedy Chat, but there's an excellent Hopkins-style character in How Does that Make You Feel?, which is now in its tenth series: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01shnfd.

manticore

Quote from: Zetetic on September 17, 2018, 11:20:43 PM
Most mental illnesses aren't characterised as 'disease'. (Most mental illnesses make themselves known through someone's personality arguably. Certainly given enough time - otherwise we're arguing for strict delineation of 'personality' from someone's affective and cognitive faculties, and very weird model of causality between them after that.)

Assuming that she's not making herself happy or other people, but continues to act in this way ... what other standard are we to find to decide that she's not unwell?

The standard that she's a person with agency as much as anyone else, and there's also a a standard that says we shouldn't medicalise despicable behaviour into oblivion, but treat people as having agency so that there's a possibility of bringing them to take responsibility for their actions. That might concievably involve therapy in some instances, but you don't help people change by telling them they're ill. Unhappiness and making other people unhappy isn't illness.

Coldness and lack of feeling for others is a social condition ultimately, and is inculated from early childhood onwards. The population of Hitler's Germany were'nt all ill. Something can be done about it on an individual level, but in the end individual change would be social change, which to which medicalisation is one of the many barriers.

This is all very interesting, but the real question is - does she float?

Zetetic

By standard, manticore, I meant a test that we can apply to an individual (and their behaviours) that let's us know whether "mentally ill" applies or not.

Quotewe shouldn't medicalise despicable behaviour into oblivion
Agreed. I don't think the mentally unwell are without agency, in a moral sense or otherwise, mind you - I think this is a question of degrees, if anything. Or something about explanations not being excuses.

QuoteColdness and lack of feeling for others is a social condition ultimately, and is inculated from early childhood onwards.
Does any of this mean that it's not a mental illness?

Quotesocial change, which to which medicalisation is one of the many barriers.
That's contrasts interestingly with the perspective of many people struggling to get help now - in the guise of 'medical' help or otherwise - because of continuing push towards 'prevention' at the cost of neglecting those in distress here and now. (Which I grant is still a pseudo-medical public health concept there, and doesn't quite take the form that either your or I want of an overhaul of our society and how we treat one another.)

Dr Rock

Quote from: Zetetic on September 17, 2018, 11:39:01 PM
Particularly for 'mental illness', I think, and 'personality disorder' (as manticore gestures at). The second of these, in specific contrast to the first, has historically been used to deny people any further help

'Doctor, I think I have narcissistic personality disorder, and it's ruining my life.'

'Well... I can offer some cognitive behavioural therapy.'

Zetetic

It's more people hurting themselves over and over again until services decide that they're impossible to help (since the services haven't helped them), and then they kill themselves.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Dr Rock on September 18, 2018, 12:42:19 AM
'Doctor, I think I have narcissistic personality disorder, and it's ruining my life.'

'You need to take a long hard look in the mirror.'


greenman

Quote from: Blue Jam on September 17, 2018, 11:23:53 PM
Perhaps she's more of a sociopath then. IIRC sociopaths are unable to experience empathy, while narcissists are highly attuned to the emotions of others but simply don't care about them- could someone who actually knows about this stuff please explain?

A lot of people lack empathy and are actively proud of the fact. Hopkins strikes me as one of those people.

Narcissism is a reaction to very low self esteem generally isn't it? you don't need to be sociopathic to be one and everyone will have aspects of themselves along those lines but not to the same degree.

manticore

Quote from: Zetetic on September 18, 2018, 12:05:54 AM
QuoteColdness and lack of feeling for others is a social condition ultimately, and is inculated from early childhood onwards.

Does any of this mean that it's not a mental illness?

It means that 'mental illness' is a hopeless phrase to use to describe a social pathology that affects every person living today. To diagnose every single person with an individual mental disorder because of the way society creates them and induces them to behave towards one another would be absurd and contribute to the mainainance of that order.

A slight tangent - the huge increase of ADHD diagnosis is so patently related to social and cultural factors but is treated as a matter of individual pathologies because no one wants to look at the crazy life we're living and our endless need for distraction from ourselves.

greenman

Typically things like Narcissism are referred to as a personality disorder not a mental illness and would not for example shield you from legal liability for your actions.

Zetetic

#89
Quote from: manticore on September 18, 2018, 01:10:12 AM
It means that 'mental illness' is a hopeless phrase to use to describe a social pathology that affects every person living today.
But it doesn't. At least not how it seems to affect Katie Hopkins.

Quote from: greenman on September 18, 2018, 01:13:36 AM
Typically things like Narcissism are referred to as a personality disorder not a mental illness
What we've talking about is what that distinction is actually in aid of. As I've said, historically that distinction is about enabling people to abandon attempts to help people without feeling so bad about doing so.

Quoteand would not for example shield you from legal liability for your actions.
Nor will any diagnosis per se, of course.

The relevant concept in England and Wales is a 'mental disorder':
QuoteA mental disorder may be relevant to:
    The decision to prosecute or divert;
    Fitness to plead; and
    Sentencing/Disposal.
and:
QuoteExamples of clinically recognised mental disorders include personality disorders, eating disorders, autistic spectrum disorders, mental illnesses such as depression, bi polar disorder and schizophrenia, and learning disabilities.

(Full-on "unable to form mens rea" defences of insanity are probably less likely to be argued for a personality disorder than a psychosis thoroughly disturbing someone's perception of events, but these defences are rare anyway.)