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China's Going Through the Black Mirror Glass

Started by Gonk, September 19, 2018, 09:17:44 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Gonk

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social-credit-a-model-citizen-in-a-digital-dictatorship/10200278

State surveillance upgrade roll-out for 2020, with how much of a model citizen you are resulting either in VIP upgrades and preferred university access, or being frozen out of travel, social media and work.

A paranoiac's dream, surely? Confirming that yes, you are being watched, yes, you are being judged and yes, it will affect your credit rating.

Trust the process, embrace the system, ensure your family and friends do the same and you will never need a Wonga.

(this would never happen in a FREE MARKET economy...)

Crisps?

Scroll wheel broke after the first two sentences, so I can only assume it's bad stuff, yet still less of an atrocity than that web page.

Sebastian Cobb

#2
Good news, private lenders and insurance companies are using social media scouring algorithms to do this too.

Alt least the Chinese one, as grimly passively authoritarian as it is, is fairly open in the behaviours it is trying to cow you in to.


Depressed Beyond Tables



Cuellar

Can't fucking wait for this.

All my years of dutifully indicating on my bike/in my car even when there is literally no one else around could have been earning me major 'good citizen' points.

Alberon

Five years tops before this is used for anyone on benefits in the UK.

BlodwynPig

It's a jingoists "scroll piece" from an Australian news source. Ignore.

Alberon

Whatever the merits of the article China is doing this. So, not ignore.

Norton Canes

I would just like to say what a fine example the Chinese State is setting to the other governments of the world.

Do I get to go First Class now?

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Alberon on September 19, 2018, 12:19:51 PM
Five years tops before this is used for anyone on benefits in the UK.

Well they already used metrics from the universal job site if you gave consent to let them share data, which I think you didn't have to, but they heavily inferred you did.

Someone wrote a browser extension that would auto apply to everything to keep them happy/point out how pointless it all was.

Paul Calf

Just waiting for the usual suspects who learned their Mandarin while horizontal to point out that ACTUALLY thisjustshowshowfreetheChinesereallyarecomparedtoEuropeans.

Icehaven

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 19, 2018, 01:46:19 PM
Well they already used metrics from the universal job site if you gave consent to let them share data, which I think you didn't have to, but they heavily inferred you did.

Someone wrote a browser extension that would auto apply to everything to keep them happy/point out how pointless it all was.

In the last library I worked in we used to get people coming in every week to use the public computers to use Universal Jobsearch, and they'd simply bring up the list of jobs, apply for the first however many it was they needed to by clicking 'apply' regardless of what they were, print it out for the jobcentre and leave. They neither wanted the jobs nor even sometimes knew what they were, and were often quite vocal about what a stupid waste of time it was because the website was shite and they were actively looking for work elsewhere, but that they still had to use this site even if they could prove they were looking for work elsewhere. One woman was in her 50s but looked older, obviously had mental health issues and was quite physically frail, and she'd apply for things like working in a box factory or warehouse jobs. Such a ridiculous waste of her and everyone else's time.

Uncle TechTip

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 19, 2018, 10:45:23 AM
Good news, private lenders and insurance companies are using social media scouring algorithms to do this too.

Alt least the Chinese one, as grimly passively authoritarian as it is, is fairly open in the behaviours it is trying to cow you in to.

And I'll bet that staying off social media in an effort to reduce the effects of this will mean that you'll have no social capital at all and this will get you the worst deal.

greenman

Quote from: Paul Calf on September 19, 2018, 02:37:35 PM
Just waiting for the usual suspects who learned their Mandarin while horizontal to point out that ACTUALLY thisjustshowshowfreetheChinesereallyarecomparedtoEuropeans.

This is more the domain of "don't rock the boat" centralists who've gradually stopped talking about Tibet over the last 20 years.

bgmnts

V for Vendetta basically but with more Chinese people.

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: Gonk on September 19, 2018, 09:17:44 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social-credit-a-model-citizen-in-a-digital-dictatorship/10200278

A vast network of 200 million CCTV cameras across China ensures there's no dark corner in which to hide.

Every step she takes, every one of her actions big or small — even what she thinks — can be tracked and judged.

This article is slightly hyperbolic. There's no doubt the above quote reflects the ambitions of the Chinese government, but that doesn't mean they're able to achieve it.

As this NYT piece put it,

QuoteEven so, China's ambitions outstrip its abilities. Technology in place at one train station or crosswalk may be lacking in another city, or even the next block over. Bureaucratic inefficiencies prevent the creation of a nationwide network.

For the Communist Party, that may not matter. Far from hiding their efforts, Chinese authorities regularly state, and overstate, their capabilities. In China, even the perception of surveillance can keep the public in line.

If the CCP can convince people that they can do what they claim they'll be able to do, then a big part of it's success could be that perception.

Interesting that the ABC article shows 'Dandan' using Alibaba's Sesame Credit (which is not the same as the government's social credit system, currently under development)

Sebastian Cobb

Do you not find the ambition in itself worrying? The fact it won't work properly probably won't be much comfort to the people utterly fucked over by it.

I don't think it's that technically difficult anyway, some US police departments have controversial software that uses anpr and social media analysis to determine the likelihood that someone is a criminal.

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 19, 2018, 05:19:16 PM
Do you not find the ambition in itself worrying?

I do. But any account of Chinese politics that ignores bureaucratic inefficiency and corruption is a massively incomplete one. I think the story is important enough without over-egging it.

Zetetic

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 19, 2018, 10:45:23 AM
Good news, private lenders and insurance companies are using social media scouring algorithms to do this too.
Without specific consent?

(I recognise that even if the answer is "No, I should have made that clear." then we still risk it becoming difficult to obtain loans or insurance without agreeing to this in the future.)

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Zetetic on September 19, 2018, 09:31:06 PM
Without specific consent?

(I recognise that even if the answer is "No, I should have made that clear." then we still risk it becoming difficult to obtain loans or insurance without agreeing to this in the future.)

https://medium.com/privacy-international/social-media-intelligence-and-profiling-in-the-insurance-industry-4958fd11f86f

Zetetic

Is that a "No" then?

Because all of the stuff in that article would seem to require giving specific consent (and access) to use social media information. Have I missed something? (Edit: Noting that firstcarquote abandoned using that information because of Facebook's own policies.)

That seems more 'open' to me, even I'm not very happy about it.

Sebastian Cobb

I'm not sure how much consent matters too much in this sense given how willing people are to give it over in order to get a bargain. Look at how telematic boxes are becoming normalised with young drivers.

Zetetic

It matters a bit in the context of a claim that "Alt least the Chinese one ... is fairly open in the behaviours it is trying to cow you in to", I think.

More broadly, I wouldn't be opposed to trying to outlaw discrimination on these sort of bases - just as we've done with gender.

I guess on the basis of any sort of behaviour other than that directly connected to the issue at hand - I think it's still fine to require higher insurance premiums of those that have caused accidents, and to offer lower premiums for those that have undertaken more training, for example. (Not entirely trivial to delineate, but not beyond the wit of man.)

marquis_de_sad

For what it's worth, Sesame Credit (the private company whose app was — rather misleadingly — shown in the ABC article) say they only collect and share data with consent. They might not be telling the truth, but that's what they say.

Icehaven

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45590293

Major life insurer to only sell policies to people who wear fitbits or smartwatches that collect their health (and plenty more besides) data. Iceberg, tips etc.

This sounds absolutely brilliant. Great system. I would definitely be competing for high score

Fry

Quote from: icehaven on September 21, 2018, 07:10:18 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45590293

Major life insurer to only sell policies to people who wear fitbits or smartwatches that collect their health (and plenty more besides) data. Iceberg, tips etc.


When I used to wear a fitbit I noticed it would log a good few hundred extra steps a day when I was on the bus, the jostling and bumping registering as steps. How do they account for shit like that?

steveh

There was a photo going round recently of a restaurant in China that had installed little automated rocking devices on tables that their customers could put their phones / trackers in so they could up their step count while sat around eating and drinking.