Norm McDonald: "Bill Hicks and Mort Sahl are Shit"

[Barry Admin]

He seems to be taking the "anti" part of the definition very literally.

[petril]

There's no consistency in his comedy purism, he's just randomly swinging his fists at whatever annoys him and attaching some lofty reason for doing so afterwards. I guess he just has a hole he needs to fill.

It reminds of Gallagher in that interview he did for the AV Club years ago https://www.avclub.com/gallagher-1798218616

Norm McDonald = Gallagher

There are at least five comedy specials on Comedy Central where the comedian wears a dark color and stands in front of a dark curtain. Now how fucking stupid is that? Now your hands and your face are floating in blackness.

going after Norman Lovett now

[MortSahlFan]

Picking those three out does seem intentionally provocative, to be fair. Only a dildo would genuinely hold such an opinion.

I agree.. It seems like nowadays you become more popular as a result of something non-artistic, just as long as it gets enough advertisement clicks.

[Sebastian Cobb]

I don't hate hicks but I reckon if I heard him at the age I am now rather than a stoner 15 year old I'd think he was a wanker.

[BeardFaceMan]

I've heard a lot of criticisms levelled at Hicks over the years,  some justified, some not, but this is certainly the first time I've heard him described as anti-comedy. Thats just silly.

[Trojan_Jockey]

I've heard a lot of criticisms levelled at Hicks over the years,  some justified, some not, but this is certainly the first time I've heard him described as anti-comedy. Thats just silly.

Nobody has described him as anti-comedy.

[BeardFaceMan]

Its what Norm said isnt it? That Hicks was shit and not a comedian because he used truth in his act, to Norm thats anti-comedy because it isnt pure, whatever the fuck that means.

[marquis_de_sad]

The Hicks stuff was part of something Norm said in the interview in the OP about bringing politics and social commentary into comedy. His statement on anti-comedy was made at a different time, on twitter. He only mentioned Kaufman in the latter.

[up_the_hampipe]

He tends to describe what Hicks and others do as "important comedy". I do see and agree with his point to an extent, but based on some of the comedians he claims are geniuses, there's an inconsistency. Most of the great comics have some substance and a clear point of view, which goes beyond the rules Norm seems to define for comedy.

[Shit Good Nose]

Americans do seem to have a different understanding of "anti comedy", or at least the term means something completely different over there. 

[MortSahlFan]

Americans do seem to have a different understanding of "anti comedy", or at least the term means something completely different over there.

How do we contrast?

[MortSahlFan]

I guess Norm only thinks it's funny when he dresses up with a white haired wig, fake moustache, selling Kentucky Fried Chicken on commercials - because that's what comedy is all about.

[MortSahlFan]

I guess Norm only thinks it's funny when he dresses up with a white haired wig, fake moustache, selling Kentucky Fried Chicken on commercials - because THATS comedy!

[Shit Good Nose]

How do we contrast?

Assuming the phrase "anti-comedy" is not being used as a negative term to criticise the comedian or show (and it's used in that sense on both sides of the Atlantic), British anti-comedy tends to have no obvious punchline and often either takes very humdrum topics and turns them into something slightly surreal through the journey, or maintains a complete po-face, and it's all delivered very very deadpan and dry.  A typical example would be a couple of early (VERY early) Harry Hill jokes:
Why did the chicken cross the road?  To go to Dixons, because they sell their own brand Saisho electrical products which are just as reliable as those from the large Japanese manufacturers, but at a fraction of the cost, plus the Dixons warranty covers all repairs and maintenance for a year;
What do you get if you cross an elephant and a rhino?  An elephant-rhino hybrid which is accepted by neither elephant nor rhino species and is destined to become extinct after only one generation.

Comedians like Hill (although he's become more "mainstream" over time, albeit in his own way), Ted Chippington, Jim Tavare and, more recently, Ed Aczel all fit within the British anti-comedy template.  American anti-comedy tends to be satire, sarcasm, Hicks/Bruce/Sahl almost-lecturing, or all of the above, but still within the realms of standard joke telling and/or observation formats.  Aside from Andy Kaufman (and I would argue that even Kaufman was more performance art than any kind of labelled comedy) I've yet to see or hear one American comedian that really fits within what us Brits have always understood as anti-comedy.

That's not to say either one is right or wrong or better than the other, just that they mean different things in the respective countries.

[marquis_de_sad]

and dry.  A typical example would be a couple of early (VERY early) Harry Hill jokes:
Why did the chicken cross the road?  To go to Dixons, because they sell their own brand Saisho electrical products which are just as reliable as those from the large Japanese manufacturers, but at a fraction of the cost, plus the Dixons warranty covers all repairs and maintenance for a year;

"Why did the chicken cross the road" is itself an anti-comedy joke. The punchline is there's no punchline.

[kngen]

"Why did the chicken cross the road" is itself an anti-comedy joke. The punchline is there's no punchline.

There's an argument that it isn't. 'To get to the other side' is suggesting that it's going to be run over and killed. I'll admit that it took 40-odd years for me to finally get it though, so it might just be the smartest joke going.

[Dr Rock]

Maybe the chicken is making use of a zebra crossing.

[marquis_de_sad]

There's an argument that it isn't. 'To get to the other side' is suggesting that it's going to be run over and killed. I'll admit that it took 40-odd years for me to finally get it though, so it might just be the smartest joke going.

Nonsense.

[Barry Admin]

Yeah I don't agree with that either. Chickens run pretty fast and are good at evading things in Rocky 2.

[up_the_hampipe]

I guess Norm only thinks it's funny when he dresses up with a white haired wig, fake moustache, selling Kentucky Fried Chicken on commercials - because that's what comedy is all about.

I think that's just a job.

[Jumblegraws]

Assuming the phrase "anti-comedy" is not being used as a negative term to criticise the comedian or show (and it's used in that sense on both sides of the Atlantic), British anti-comedy tends to have no obvious punchline and often either takes very humdrum topics and turns them into something slightly surreal through the journey, or maintains a complete po-face, and it's all delivered very very deadpan and dry.  A typical example would be a couple of early (VERY early) Harry Hill jokes:
Why did the chicken cross the road?  To go to Dixons, because they sell their own brand Saisho electrical products which are just as reliable as those from the large Japanese manufacturers, but at a fraction of the cost, plus the Dixons warranty covers all repairs and maintenance for a year;
What do you get if you cross an elephant and a rhino?  An elephant-rhino hybrid which is accepted by neither elephant nor rhino species and is destined to become extinct after only one generation.

Comedians like Hill (although he's become more "mainstream" over time, albeit in his own way), Ted Chippington, Jim Tavare and, more recently, Ed Aczel all fit within the British anti-comedy template.  American anti-comedy tends to be satire, sarcasm, Hicks/Bruce/Sahl almost-lecturing, or all of the above, but still within the realms of standard joke telling and/or observation formats.  Aside from Andy Kaufman (and I would argue that even Kaufman was more performance art than any kind of labelled comedy) I've yet to see or hear one American comedian that really fits within what us Brits have always understood as anti-comedy.

That's not to say either one is right or wrong or better than the other, just that they mean different things in the respective countries.

The first card I always see pulled out of the American anti-comedy deck is Neil Hamburger, who does just what you describe British anti-comedians doing.

[kngen]

Nonsense.

Well, there's plenty of debate about it between wikipedia users - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AWhy_did_the_chicken_cross_the_road%3F

[Shit Good Nose]

The first card I always see pulled out of the American anti-comedy deck is Neil Hamburger, who does just what you describe British anti-comedians doing.

Well, Hamburger is a character isn't he, much like Kaufman's Tony Clifton, and that character is supposed to be a shit comedian who forgets punchlines and has no sense of pace, so that's a little bit different. 

[QDRPHNC]

All y'all can fuck off, Norm MacDonald is brilliant.

[Trojan_Jockey]

Assuming the phrase "anti-comedy" is not being used as a negative term to criticise the comedian or show (and it's used in that sense on both sides of the Atlantic), British anti-comedy tends to have no obvious punchline and often either takes very humdrum topics and turns them into something slightly surreal through the journey, or maintains a complete po-face, and it's all delivered very very deadpan and dry.  A typical example would be a couple of early (VERY early) Harry Hill jokes:
Why did the chicken cross the road?  To go to Dixons, because they sell their own brand Saisho electrical products which are just as reliable as those from the large Japanese manufacturers, but at a fraction of the cost, plus the Dixons warranty covers all repairs and maintenance for a year;
What do you get if you cross an elephant and a rhino?  An elephant-rhino hybrid which is accepted by neither elephant nor rhino species and is destined to become extinct after only one generation.

These kind of jokes are remarkably similar to some of those in the "jokes" segment on NML. For example, "Yo momma is so fat she has type II diabetes AND congestive heart failure".  Norm does do anti-comedy, he just doesn't think he does.

[marquis_de_sad]

Well, there's plenty of debate about it between wikipedia users - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AWhy_did_the_chicken_cross_the_road%3F

And now there's plenty of debate about it on CaB. Still no evidence for the suicide theory, though.

[marquis_de_sad]

Norm does do anti-comedy, he just doesn't think he does.

100% agree with this.

[A Car With No Doors]

He seems to be taking the "anti" part of the definition very literally.

It's strange, because there's no concise term for it which isn't that, which as you've pointed out isn't accurate. You could call it "comedy about comedy" or "meta comedy" (although those both sound terrible and nobody should call them that), because it is just more jokes springing from the ideas of jokes and different elements of comedy that the audience would be aware of. I don't doubt that there are people who are referred to as anti-comedy who hate the concept of stand-up etc., but perhaps it should just be considered comedy in itself rather than some wild new thing, because undoubtedly someone here can point to it having been used for humour for a long while. I definitely don't get a sneering hatred of comedy from Neil Hamburger: his first few studio-recorded/overdubbed "live" albums in particular are deliberately, perhaps even lovingly crafted (down to the fake audience and field recordings) and full of jokes.

EDIT: to correct some spelling

[Dionne Warlock]

If you get to 70 percent, you're a guy on the streets screaming at people.

I love you, Norm, but don't you be having a pop at my man Billy Eichner.

This will not stand!

[Jumblegraws]

Well, Hamburger is a character isn't he, much like Kaufman's Tony Clifton, and that character is supposed to be a shit comedian who forgets punchlines and has no sense of pace, so that's a little bit different.

I don't want to belabour the point but I don't really see why it's different. Even if the premise is that Neil Hamburger the character thinks he's delivering straightforward gags, it's still an American comic using anti-comedy conventions in exactly the way you describe British comics doing so.
Edit to add: I should probably say I'm talking about when he does his feedline-punchline non-jokes like "Why didn't Santa gove any presents to Osama Bin Laden? Because he blew up the World Trade Centre", his general sloppiness is, as you say, character comedy and not anti-comedy in itself