What do women want men to be like? (Help a brother out)

[Shit Good Nose]

Yes (love), it's a Westcountry thing.  I remember very tactfully letting my first girlfriend in London know on the train to visit my folks - a rather outspoken American with a lot of 'views' and a tendency to assume the worst in people, especially men.

With the accompanying customer response "cheers drive".

[alan nagsworth]

Women would like men to have a better understanding of what 'dialectic' means.

nailed it bro

[Twit 2]

The bus driver in my Somerset village calls everyone "love" - whether man, woman, child or mineral.

Looks like we got ourselves a mansplainer!

Please don't hit me, but I thought Shoulders' post was showing some understanding and empathy. Fair enough if he still got it wrong, but can't he be misguided AND well meaning? Not sure how doing the Body Snatcher point at him helps. Surely that's the sort of thing that puts people off trying to understand complex issues when they're told they're doing it wrong.

Sorry if this post is another in the chain. Also, I should point out that men are generally a toxic bunch of world-ruining cunts and that women are well overdue at least total parity, if not a millennium in charge while men stay the fuck out of it.

[Barry Admin]

Rolling my eyes so fuckin hard at this thread. Been spending a lot of time recently subscribed to feminist publications and niche content groups on various social media outlets and I can safely say that when women say "fuck men" without hyperbole, they've earned the right to do so unchallenged, especially by "well, actually" and "not all men" types. If you're a man and you don't agree with this, you might have convinced yourself you're looking at the bigger picture, but you're not. If you're a woman and you don't agree with this, you're either extremely lucky or it's some wack internalised misogyny.

I've only skimmed through the thread, but can I ask what's prompted you to do this?

The last sentence in the quoted paragraph is also really intriguing to me.

I can't really dance around this sensitively, I'm not that smart or patient. I'll just tell you exactly what I think, I guess...

Garbage like this makes me ashamed of my gender, to the point where even sexism used ironically for laffs comes across as dangerous, especially when you consider its influence on any sort of online public forum and the many ways it can be construed. But that's just the male way of thinking, isn't it? People should inherently know you're joking. If they don't, they're either daft or stuck-up, and you're discounting the myriad ways in which a person might still see what you're saying as damaging despite recognising its humorous intent.

That we're on some post-ironic shit now does not make it any better and it does not make you look any less smug. Puffing your chest out as "full circle woke" and expecting everyone to instantly recognise that, wearing your "It's okay, females! I'm allowed to make jokes!" badge is a load of crap.

I've been where you are, and looking back, I'm glad I left it - and social networking - behind. I've said this before in the past, but when I was on twitter I did much the same as you. I followed loads of people who were generally really upset about stuff, usually relating to their position in society, and their treatment. And I'm a big old empathy sponge, and ended up just kind of sucking up all these peoples hurt and offence and outrage.

It's great to try and understand other people and the issues they face, but I think it's easy to get way too wrapped up in it. As I say, the last sentence in the first quoted paragraph is really intriguing to me:

If you're a woman and you don't agree with this, you're either extremely lucky or it's some wack internalised misogyny.

That in itself actually downplays women's view of what it's like to be a woman, and that's you - a man - making that judgement. Is being a woman then essentially being a victim? Is that the identity of a woman? Not only that, is it the only identity you will accept from a woman? And if a woman disagrees with you, will you then tell her that she's actually either "extremely lucky" or under the influence of "internalised misogyny"?

Is this not essentially the same kind of "mansplaining" that was being called out, and which you were responding to?



Not trying to catch you out or be a dick with the above, I hope you understand. In another thread yesterday, I said I think that influence is a funny thing, especially given how we interact with the internet, and that pretty much anyone could be turned into a race realist if they were fed (or binged upon) the right sort of content for long enough. So I want to say basically that we all need to try and have a balanced diet of stuff we check out online, and that going really far in one direction is never a particularly good idea. You don't actually have to be ashamed of your gender, you just have to do you. Sometimes sexist jokes are funny, depending on the context and setting. Sometimes getting really offended and upset about things is a good release, but it probably should be a last resort.

Again, it's just so hard to try and do this with enough tact or insight, but you just seem so, so wound up about stuff that doesn't actually affect you directly, and I suspect all these kinds of outraged, emotive responses people are learning to make these days might actually be making the world a worse place.

[pancreas]

Sorry if this post is another in the chain. Also, I should point out that men are generally a toxic bunch of world-ruining cunts and that women are well overdue at least total parity, if not a millennium in charge while men stay the fuck out of it.

I think you'll find they'll be just as terrible. Look at Theresa May, Andrea Leadsom, Amber Rudd, Stella Creasy, Jess Phillips, Joan Ryan, Angela Eagle ... that's just a small sample of the current lot. Not to mention Margaret Thatcher, may she rot in hell.

[bgmnts]

And thats with having very little power in the grand scheme. Imagine how ruinous a world run by women would be!

[Shit Good Nose]

I think it's unfair and inaccurate to say all men are toxic cunts.  It's more accurate to say that most humans are toxic cunts, and most of those that aren't are only a hair's breadth away from being toxic cunts.

[The Boston Crab]

I remember when 'toxic' made me think of Britney in a red latex catsuit. Now it makes me think of the blissful inevitability of the death of the sun.

[thenoise]

I remember when 'toxic' made me think of Britney in a red latex catsuit. Now it makes me think of the blissful inevitability of the death of the sun.

That was 'Oops I did it again', 'Toxic' was the air hostess outfit and the nudie suit ('fleshings' as Mrs Mainwaring might call them). Fat lot of good an oxbridge education did you.

[Barry Admin]

Yaël Naïm - Toxic https://youtu.be/zqKZ_WIK5ms

Haven't heard that for a few years.

[alan nagsworth]

I've only skimmed through the thread, but can I ask what's prompted you to do this?

It sort of just happened. Every day I push myself to question the actions and thought processes of not just me but those around me. I mean, largely I'm a very laid back and approachable person but I have so many "you think you're being empathetic but you really aren't putting yourself in someone else's shoes enough there" or "there are still traces of narcissism in your good intentions and you need to eradicate that" moments still. As time went on in recent months I've found myself utterly loathing online communities like Reddit and steering myself more into little hubs that force me to see the world through the eyes of a woman or LGBTQ person.

I've never been so bad as to sending unsolicited dick pics or lashing out at women if they reject me, but I'm not wholly innocent either (elaborated below), I still have a fair bit to learn and to purge out of me. I hate gender roles/divides and part of me fully understanding this is by spending time sitting back and observing the non-cis male side of things. I watch (and avidly enjoy the shit out of) RuPaul's Drag Race partly for the same reason. I look at people and think, god there's so much fuckin strength over adversity and there's such a fight there, these dudes are so much stronger than me. It gives me a perspective where relatively I've never really had to fight for anything.

That in itself actually downplays women's view of what it's like to be a woman, and that's you - a man - making that judgement. Is being a woman then essentially being a victim? Is that the identity of a woman? Not only that, is it the only identity you will accept from a woman? And if a woman disagrees with you, will you then tell her that she's actually either "extremely lucky" or under the influence of "internalised misogyny"?

Is this not essentially the same kind of "mansplaining" that was being called out, and which you were responding to?

Yeah, you make a good point. That definitely wasn't my intention when I wrote that, but looking back at it, I do see some self-righteousness in my attitude. It's sometimes difficult to want to be seen as "a man who gets it" without also coming across like you're speaking for women, because you aren't the fighter in this situation. You're literally just someone in the crowd waving the banner.

Internalised misogyny is definitely a thing, though; I've seen it and it sucks, but thinking about it, that isn't my call to make. I can ask, "I dunno, kind of sounds like you're defending the shitty thing that guy did?" but I don't have the right to declare someone a victim, or that my gender is trash and women deserve better. It's more complicated than that, but I'm making progress.

Not trying to catch you out or be a dick with the above, I hope you understand. In another thread yesterday, I said I think that influence is a funny thing, especially given how we interact with the internet, and that pretty much anyone could be turned into a race realist if they were fed (or binged upon) the right sort of content for long enough. So I want to say basically that we all need to try and have a balanced diet of stuff we check out online, and that going really far in one direction is never a particularly good idea. You don't actually have to be ashamed of your gender, you just have to do you. Sometimes sexist jokes are funny, depending on the context and setting. Sometimes getting really offended and upset about things is a good release, but it probably should be a last resort.

Again, it's just so hard to try and do this with enough tact or insight, but you just seem so, so wound up about stuff that doesn't actually affect you directly, and I suspect all these kinds of outraged, emotive responses people are learning to make these days might actually be making the world a worse place.

I'm curious about that last sentence also. I think saying it doesn't affect me directly isn't necessarily true. The way it affects me is that I want to be a better, more understanding person (though I'd obviously never try to equate this process with that of a woman who's suffered this shit for generations and most of her own life) . I get wound up because I live in London and I see women whistled and clapped at, leered at out of car windows, followed through the streets, and I want to be instrumental in forcing that behaviour into the history books.

I think that balanced content is all well and good, but I'm not about to immerse myself in any mens rights groups to the extent that it's on my feed in equal measure to feminist stuff. I will dip into it because it'd be dumb not to, but it's not like that side of things is particularly hard to understand, albeit morbidly fascinating.

What do you mean by "outraged, emotive responses" - could you cite some examples?

[Captain Z]

It sort of just happened. Every day I push myself to question the actions and thought processes of not just me but those around me.

I went through a phase like this but instead now I just watch clips of Shooting Stars and Robot Wars on youtube.

[Shit Good Nose]

Every day I push myself to question the actions and thought processes of not just me but those around me.

I've said many times in loads of threads recently that we are now in a world where everything is okay and nothing is okay all at the same time, and the rules change daily, there are labels and sub-labels, and just when we think we've got acceptable thinking sussed, someone or some situation comes along to totally blow that sussing out of the water.

To adapt what Captain Z said above, I think getting too outraged about anything these days is harming no one but yourself (the royal yourself), and with so many of us CaBbers struggling with numerous things (health, mental health, finances, whatever), I think looking after number one and worrying less about other people - particularly those totally detached from your own existence - is, really, the only healthy way forward.

I realise that probably sounds harsh, but with all the shit I've been through in the last 10 years I'm not about to get hot and bothered and involved with whether or not some American politician had sex with loads of girls when he was at college 25 years ago, and the shit I've put up with is a LOT milder than most other CaBbers...


......fuck it, I'm trying to make a point and, again, not really sure what I'm trying to say.  I think my brain is at the start of being fucked...

[manticore]

I hate gender roles/divides and part of me fully understanding this is by spending time sitting back and observing the non-cis male side of things. I watch (and avidly enjoy the shit out of) RuPaul's Drag Race partly for the same reason.

I'm wondering what do you mean by 'non-cis male' please?

[alan nagsworth]

I'm wondering what do you mean by 'non-cis male' please?

People who aren't cis men.

I'll reply to the other bits later, I'm in a very heated card battle on Final Fantasy VIII and it's fucking my brains

[manticore]

People who aren't cis men.

Everybody on the planet then, including women, who I don't believe are 'non-male'.

[Noonling]

I hate gender roles/divides and part of me fully understanding this is by spending time sitting back and observing the non-cis male side of things. I watch (and avidly enjoy the shit out of) RuPaul's Drag Race partly for the same reason.

I haven't watched RuPaul's show, but my understanding is that most of them are drag queens, and don't identify as trans? Thus they would be "cis".

[canadagoose]

Everybody on the planet then, including women, who I don't believe are 'non-male'.

Do you have to be on GC-evangelist mode all the time? You know what he meant.

[Cuellar]

And RuPaul has said trans people aren't allowed to enter, so he's cancelled and a piece of trash.

[manticore]

Do you have to be on GC-evangelist mode all the time? You know what he meant.

I don't know what he meant, what he said made no sense. And the fact that he didn't explain what he said but just repeated himself suggests to me that he didn't know either.

I'm not going to stop questioning things like this, along with anything else I don't understand or disagree with on this board.

[canadagoose]

I don't know what he meant, what he said made no sense. And the fact that he didn't explain what he said but just repeated himself suggests to me that he didn't know either.

I'm not going to stop questioning things like this, along with anything else I don't understand or disagree with on this board.

Yeah, I'm sure you don't "understand". Chinny reckon. Are you going to keep doing this in every other thread? It's just ideological derailing.

[manticore]

Yeah, I'm sure you don't "understand". Chinny reckon. Are you going to keep doing this in every other thread? It's just ideological derailing.

I think it's about four or five threads, which isn't actually as much as it should have been, as I've been to cowardly or lazy to do it sometimes. People question things all the time on this board, it's part of what it's for.

If you understand what 'non-cis male' means then you must have access to some supernatural knowledge that I don't.

[pancreas]

And RuPaul has said trans people aren't allowed to enter, so he's cancelled and a piece of trash.

I think he's changed his tune on that. There was an apology.

[alan nagsworth]

I don't know what he meant, what he said made no sense. And the fact that he didn't explain what he said but just repeated himself suggests to me that he didn't know either.

I'm not going to stop questioning things like this, along with anything else I don't understand or disagree with on this board.

No, you do know what I meant, you're just being prickly. It's obvious that I was referring to anyone other than what I am: a man who was born as one and continues to identify as one.

I haven't watched RuPaul's show, but my understanding is that most of them are drag queens, and don't identify as trans? Thus they would be "cis".

I am not equating those two examples as being the same thing, please don't assume I'm lacking that much awareness. Both examples given were to illustrate my viewing the world from another perspective.

I probably should have said "hetero cis male" but I feel like I'm just being picked at now for things which should really be blatantly obvious.

And RuPaul has said trans people aren't allowed to enter, so he's cancelled and a piece of trash.

This is an interesting point of which I'm well aware and wouldn't mind discussing with you. Why do you think this is a bad move on Ru's part? It's something I struggle to form an opinion on as I'm neither trans nor gay, but as far as I can tell, is it not just a case of acceptable exclusivity? Gay men using drag as an at of rebellion against persecution because it's a long-standing thing... isn't that sort of alright, that they would want to have this thing for themselves? It's a touchy subject but I feel like I can sort of understand why they wouldn't want that particular scene to be compromised at all, but at the same time, in the grand scheme of things, inclusivity is obviously the way forward.

To adapt what Captain Z said above, I think getting too outraged about anything these days is harming no one but yourself (the royal yourself), and with so many of us CaBbers struggling with numerous things (health, mental health, finances, whatever), I think looking after number one and worrying less about other people - particularly those totally detached from your own existence - is, really, the only healthy way forward.

I mean, it's not like this is life-consuming stuff. Gender politics is no less damaging a thing to be interested in than world politics, about a part of the world completely detached from your own. I'm not tearing myself to bits over this, it's just something which is really important to me.

[canadagoose]

I think it's about four or five threads, which isn't actually as much as it should have been, as I've been to cowardly or lazy to do it sometimes. People question things all the time on this board, it's part of what it's for.

Four or five on the same thing is a lot. And I'm not sure it comes into the category of "questioning things"; it's getting a bit into the realm of TFM and Corbyn when it's that sort of frequency.

If you understand what 'non-cis male' means then you must have access to some supernatural knowledge that I don't.

Anyone who isn't a cis male is either a trans man, a woman or a non-binary person. It's not that difficult.

[Noonling]

I probably should have said "hetero cis male" but I feel like I'm just being picked at now for things which should really be blatantly obvious.

Apologies - I didn't mean to pick on you, I was just being a sleepy idiot!

[Sorry Monkeys]

there are some who seem to really not like any men and I wonder, like, what's the end of the line for them. What would they like men to be like?

Sorry ;)

[The Boston Crab]

All the best with that.

[manticore]

I don't know what he meant, what he said made no sense. And the fact that he didn't explain what he said but just repeated himself suggests to me that he didn't know either.

I'm not going to stop questioning things like this, along with anything else I don't understand or disagree with on this board.

No, you do know what I meant, you're just being prickly. It's obvious that I was referring to anyone other than what I am: a man who was born as one and continues to identify as one.

It wasn't being picky to question your statement that 'non-cis male' means "People who aren't cis men" which would have included women in the category of 'non-males'.  You've now adjusted that to "hetero cis male", but that's meaningless again as 'cis' is a meaningless term. What do you mean when you say you identify as a man? I'm a man, but I don't identify as one because I don't know what that would mean, so I'm not 'cis' and nobody else is either. I haven't got a clue what it feels like to be a man. It just happens to be my biological sex. What characteristics do you have that cause you to 'identify' as a man and which differentiate you from a woman? Do you mean 'gender identity'?

Is being disabled or black or gay an identity? Some people think you can become black by identifying as black.

A man who calls himself 'Pips Bunce' who calls himself 'gender-fluid' and part time wears a dress was listed on the Credit Suisse Top 100 Female Executives list in 2018. A company called Lunapads advertised their products to help with women's periods with a 'content warning' for 'gendered language' because they used the word 'woman' in relation to periods. I mean think about that.

Those are just two random examples. Women are being erased and terms like 'cis male' and 'cis woman' are part of that.

[canadagoose]

Women are being erased and terms like 'cis male' and 'cis woman' are part of that.