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New stained glass window in Westminster Abbey

Started by gib, September 27, 2018, 12:27:41 AM

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the

Oh how challenging etc. *snore*

If the Dean hadn't been kicking a football around in the first place, none of this would've happened

ajsmith2

Degenerate 'art' like this is an insult to the values of Western Society and to our potential as human beings. That's what I say to myself as I change my Gab banner to a William Blake print before going back to fapping over Sekko Boys memes while listening to 90s video game soundtracks anyway.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

#32
Quote from: Pdine on September 27, 2018, 10:22:02 AM
I do find it a bit depressing to see the same old arguments about art and skill trotted out, both here and on the DM  comments page. What do they have to do with each other?

They're synonymous? As in: "the subtle art of window dressing" Just another way of saying that there's a skill in dressing up a window. Though not in this case - if us and the DM readers are anything to go by.

Thomas

Quote from: The GuardianThe dean recalled asking Hockney to create the window and being told the artist could not do anything for six months. "Then he sent me a sketch the next day, which I think is an indication he was keen it's shit."

Dr Trouser

Isn't David Hockney the one who by his own admission can't paint feet?


Kelvin

Quote from: Dr Trouser on September 27, 2018, 12:32:20 PM
Isn't David Hockney the one who by his own admission can't paint feet?

I wish his tribute to the queen had featured her with lots of pouches, huge veiny muscles, and a massive pert arse.

pancreas

Poo's diagram of Greginald Cackman had more going for it.

Pdine

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on September 27, 2018, 11:22:48 AM
They're synonymous? As in: "the subtle art of window dressing" Just another way of saying that there's a skill in dressing up a window. Though not in this case - if us and the DM readers are anything to go by.

Yes, but that's an almost entirely distinct sense of 'art' from the one generally intended when discussing 'artists'. You're talking about OED sense 1:

QuoteSkill in doing something, esp. as the result of knowledge or practice.

I'm talking about OED sense 8a:

QuoteThe expression or application of creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting, drawing, or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

So what does skill have to do with art (OED sense 8a)?

Icehaven

Quote from: Blumf on September 27, 2018, 09:10:50 AM
Giraffes, falling from the sky, their bodies bursting on impact, their blood and guts draining into a river of blood....


It reminds me of this storytime classic;



gilbertharding

The trouble with defending the window as...

QuoteThe expression or application of creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting, drawing, or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

...is that it still relies on the 'application of creative skill' which is clearly debatable in this case (notwithstanding the creative skill of the technicians who actually made it) - and not JUST by 'Daily Mail reading types'. It also rests on the work having beauty or emotional power - which are also heavily in the eye of the beholder.

I suppose in a way, the really pointless thing is even to express an opinion about this sort of thing. But I didn't start it, so...

I like Hockney - even including most of his recent work - but unless the pictures I've seen of this window are a gross misrepresentation of the actual piece, this is pretty execrable. The Queen might deserve nothing better, but Westminster Abbey does.

If it's Modern ecclesiastical stained glass you're after, you could do worse than going to Tudeley in Kent, where the church has a complete set of windows by Marc Chagall. Or else the baptistry window at Coventry Cathedral by John Piper and Patrick Reyntiens.


Buelligan

To my mind, appreciating stained glass involves light and the movement of light, obvs this can't really be conveyed in a still photograph.
I've always felt it would be marvelous to create a window that produced changing images or impressions on the interior of a building as the sun or other light source illuminating it moved or changed.  I'm firmly on the rood screen for this one.

Blumf

Quote from: Mr Farenheit on September 27, 2018, 03:21:42 PM
They should get Ringo Starr to do one

Bit unfair on The Beatles drummer and also, what's telling him to go away got to do with stained glass?

Mr Farenheit

Quote from: Blumf on September 27, 2018, 03:51:05 PM
Bit unfair on The Beatles drummer and also, what's telling him to go away got to do with stained glass?

Sorry, just still pissed off my Ringo and his all starr band video didn't reach him til Oct 21 2008. Royal Mail's fault more than Ringo's really and I take it back.

But I do think his artwork would look great in Westminster or Chartres. https://m.imgur.com/gallery/0BEPY


Shoulders?-Stomach!

The stained glass at Vysehrad in Prague is really good, especially for art nouveau lovers. Meets the requirements of the medium, as Buelligan says above, by deploying the use of colour and light in the space deliberately and carefully so as to create not just a piece of art but an ambience around it.

Hockney's effort can't do that as it's just one window right next to a very different window. Integration is the key, I suspect.

Replies From View

Question:  Is it funny.

Answer:  Yes it is.



Well then it is good then.

Replies From View


Replies From View

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 27, 2018, 04:25:07 PM
The stained glass at Vysehrad in Prague is really good, especially for art nouveau lovers. Meets the requirements of the medium, as Buelligan says above, by deploying the use of colour and light in the space deliberately and carefully so as to create not just a piece of art but an ambience around it.

Hockney's effort can't do that as it's just one window right next to a very different window. Integration is the key, I suspect.

Personally I'd like to know what fans of Sierra's graphical adventure games think of it.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Replies From View on September 27, 2018, 05:55:06 PM
Question:  Is it funny.

If it's a deliberate troll, then aye. Otherwise it's just shite.

Replies From View

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on September 27, 2018, 06:20:47 PM
If it's a deliberate troll, then aye. Otherwise it's just shite.

I think it's funny even if just shite.  Imagine all the furious Daily Mail readers bobbing up and down and gnashing their teeth.

Bhazor

Properly shit. But its a vanity piece for the monarchy so that makes it funny.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Replies From View on September 27, 2018, 06:26:18 PM
I think it's funny even if just shite.  Imagine all the furious Daily Mail readers bobbing up and down and gnashing their teeth.

They're all a bit preoccupied at the minute 'cos a woman closed a car door.

Captain Z

Seems like this has made a lot of people Westminster crabby.

Quote from: Dr Trouser on September 27, 2018, 12:32:20 PM
Isn't David Hockney the one who by his own admission can't paint feet?

Yes, but luckily they gave him the dimensions in metres.

Attila


idunnosomename

Quote from: gilbertharding on September 27, 2018, 03:32:24 PM
The trouble with defending the window as...

...is that it still relies on the 'application of creative skill' which is clearly debatable in this case (notwithstanding the creative skill of the technicians who actually made it) - and not JUST by 'Daily Mail reading types'. It also rests on the work having beauty or emotional power - which are also heavily in the eye of the beholder.

I suppose in a way, the really pointless thing is even to express an opinion about this sort of thing. But I didn't start it, so...

I like Hockney - even including most of his recent work - but unless the pictures I've seen of this window are a gross misrepresentation of the actual piece, this is pretty execrable. The Queen might deserve nothing better, but Westminster Abbey does.

If it's Modern ecclesiastical stained glass you're after, you could do worse than going to Tudeley in Kent, where the church has a complete set of windows by Marc Chagall. Or else the baptistry window at Coventry Cathedral by John Piper and Patrick Reyntiens.
Agreed but
Piper's windows in St Margaret's Westminster (next to the Abbey) are shit, though. And there are many "Chagall" windows that aint much cop either (Tudeley is fine, I went there by accident once, it's nice but I wasnt blown away: and I have been blown away by modern stained glass)

The actual glass is just as important as the design. And this looks like weak shit. Like old sweet wrappers.

buzby

Quote from: Buelligan on September 27, 2018, 03:45:15 PM
To my mind, appreciating stained glass involves light and the movement of light, obvs this can't really be conveyed in a still photograph.
I've always felt it would be marvelous to create a window that produced changing images or impressions on the interior of a building as the sun or other light source illuminating it moved or changed.  I'm firmly on the rood screen for this one.
Piper and Reyntiens' stained glass in the walls and lantern of the Catholic Cathedral in Liverpool do this - with it being designed 'in the round' after Vatican II it means the colours and patterns of light inside the building changes as the sun rises and sets. It's quite spectacular.

marquis_de_sad

I can't give my opinion on that until I know what the Daily Mail think.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Quote from: Pdine on September 27, 2018, 01:52:51 PM
Yes, but that's an almost entirely distinct sense of 'art' from the one generally intended when discussing 'artists'. You're talking about OED sense 1:

I'm talking about OED sense 8a:

So what does skill have to do with art (OED sense 8a)?

You can have art without skill if you like. The only thing then is you have no way to distinguish good art from bad art. Art becomes democratic in the worst possible way of every person being as good as any other. Which is quite a significant caveat.

marquis_de_sad

This craft discussion is irrelevant. The window is ugly as fuck. That's all that should matter.

It does amuse me that some people on here are deluding themselves that this cack-handed blob mess is somehow radical. Maybe Hockney employed the same PR firm that the Tories did when they changed their logo to a tree. A tree! The most bland, safe, and meaningless symbol you could possibly go for.

This is the quiet bat people of modern art.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

He's a name with a profile, that's all that counts. They don't want to get it wrong and hire somehow whose reputation suddenly goes south over night. Then it would be like burying Fuseli (an 18th century English painter who no one now remembers) in St. Paul's all over again while completely ignoring the prolific output of his contemporary William Blake who, incidentally, does now have a little bust of himself in Poet's Corner. Better late than never.