Bands which have a shift in power dynamics from within

[a duncandisorderly]

Gong has been through quite a few changes over the years, the most notable being after Daevid Allen left for the first time in 1975 and the band produced Shamal (also promoting material from Steve Hillage's Fish Rising around the same time. Then suddenly becoming a jazz fusion band under the leadership of Pierre Moerlen to produce Gazeuse!.

Daevid Allen's first band, Soft Machine went through many changes, with no original members present by the end.

yeah, I was going to mention gong... even in el alien's own account, any 'power struggle' seems to have been a rather gentle business. & now the band is in the safe hands of former monsoon bassoon leader kavus torabi, one of the many projects he manages along with his radio/DJ appearances with steve davis. busy lad.

[wosl]

I think after Peter Green left Mick Fleetwood became the one with the real power in Fleetwood Mac, just look at recent events.

I'd say he forms 'a firm' with John McVie. You don't have to look only to the present for evidence, either.  Look at the way Bob Weston, arguably FM's most talented guitarist after Green and Kirwan, was hustled out of the band after a tryst with Fleetwood's first wife of presumably no greater intensity or duration than the one Fleetwood himself would later have with Stevie Nicks.

[a duncandisorderly]

I'd say he forms 'a firm' with John McVie. You don't have to look only to the present for evidence, either.  Look at the way Bob Weston, arguably FM's most talented guitarist after Green and Kirwan, was hustled out of the band after a tryst with Fleetwood's first wife of presumably no greater intensity or duration than the one Fleetwood himself would later have with Stevie Nicks.

FM's is definitely one of the odder shifts in power, isn't it? green could've called the band anything he wanted, but chose to name it after the drummer & the bassist he hadn't even convinced to join yet. "I've put your name in the band's name- now you have to join!"..... then leaves, leaving them to it, while both of the other two guitarists are themselves close to disintegration. so then poor bob... bob welch... & the whole fake mac fiasco... fleetwood decides to take control ("my name's first in the band's name") & hires buckingham/nicks. then gradually LB takes over.

[wosl]

I think they were originally billed as Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac.  Mick should be reminded of that whenever he starts coming over a touch band führer.

[Z]

I'm enjoying this thread guys! Looking like the 70s was a peak period for total fucking messes of this kind?


Spiral Stairs's role in Pavement was always a bit odd. He was never the leader but him not even having a song on Terror Twilight just seems odd as fuck doesn't it? Like Malkmus was just trying to force the band into splitting up so he didn't have to do it himself

[Pingers]

Human League, 1980. Ware and Marsh leave, Phil Oakey goes trawling Sheffield nightclubs and recruits two teenage girls with no music experience: complete left turn.

There's a great bit in the Made in Sheffield DVD where Stephen Singleton (I think) recounts being told "Our Joanne's joined The Human League" and his incredulous response of "Doing what??"

[JesusAndYourBush]

Jefferson Starship.  Grace Slick had a drunken meltdown at a gig in Germany mid 1978 (sieg heiling and making odd comments) and left the band to get herself together.  When she returned a year and a half later they'd drafted in that guy with the tash and another female singer, the group had begun it's descent into crapdom, becoming Starship a few years later, with Grace kept well in the background, if she was good they'd let her do one or two songs maybe.

[Jockice]

Human League, 1980. Ware and Marsh leave, Phil Oakey goes trawling Sheffield nightclubs and recruits two teenage girls with no music experience: complete left turn.

There's a great bit in the Made in Sheffield DVD where Stephen Singleton (I think) recounts being told "Our Joanne's joined The Human League" and his incredulous response of "Doing what??"

Ware got chucked out actually which pissed him off no end as he'd formed the band and recruited Oakey in the first place. Apparently Phil expected Marsh to side with him but he didn't, leaving him with tour dates to fulfill and nobody who could actually play the synth properly, although Adrian Wright was shit hot at showing slides. As well as Joanne and Susan they also recruited Jo Callis (ex Rezillos and originally from Rotherham) and Ian Burden (from local bands Graph and the Musical Janeens). And the rest is history.

As for Stephen Singleton, he still holds a grudge against Martin Fry, who he originally asked to join Vice Versa, for apparently later claiming that the entire transformation to ABC was his idea and for basically having a huge ego. A few years ago there was one of those Bands Reunited programmes on MTV in which both Singleton and Mark White (who stayed with ABC for a while after Singleton left) refused to rejoin Fry at the end for a one-off concert. The drummer played though.

[Pingers]

Ware got chucked out actually which pissed him off no end as he'd formed the band and recruited Oakey in the first place. Apparently Phil expected Marsh to side with him but he didn't, leaving him with tour dates to fulfill and nobody who could actually play the synth properly, although Adrian Wright was shit hot at showing slides. As well as Joanne and Susan they also recruited Jo Callis (ex Rezillos and originally from Rotherham) and Ian Burden (from local bands Graph and the Musical Janeens). And the rest is history.

As for Stephen Singleton, he still holds a grudge against Martin Fry, who he originally asked to join Vice Versa, for apparently later claiming that the entire transformation to ABC was his idea and for basically having a huge ego. A few years ago there was one of those Bands Reunited programmes on MTV in which both Singleton and Mark White (who stayed with ABC for a while after Singleton left) refused to rejoin Fry at the end for a one-off concert. The drummer played though.

Props to you Jockice, you clearly know your post-punk Sheffield onions. I had read that Martyn Ware had recruited Oakey mainly because he looked like a pop star. Must have been gutted when he got the shove then.

[Jockice]

Props to you Jockice, you clearly know your post-punk Sheffield onions. I had read that Martyn Ware had recruited Oakey mainly because he looked like a pop star. Must have been gutted when he got the shove then.

It's a pleasure Pingers. Him and Oakey were best mates at school too so I don't think he was too happy about it.

[sevendaughters]

Spiral Stairs's role in Pavement was always a bit odd. He was never the leader but him not even having a song on Terror Twilight just seems odd as fuck doesn't it? Like Malkmus was just trying to force the band into splitting up so he didn't have to do it himself

yep. passive aggressive mess really. you can see it in the absolute boredom in Malkmus' face from vids of the last tour or the performance he puts in in the Painted Soldiers video.

the weirdest one for me is Pixies. they all say it was Black's band first and foremost and that despite fans wanting more Kim, Kim was happy to have her own band and just play bass/sing backup. But he still walked and did his own thing. think that's just the sign of people being strange and not getting on.

[holyzombiejesus]

Not really a power shift as such but Stuart Murdoch allowing the mediocre talents of Jackson, Campbell and Martin to add their shoddy songs to Belle & Sebastian albums has generally been to the listener's detriment. Then again, in recent years, Stuart Murdoch adding his own shoddy songs to Belle & Sebastian albums has generally been to the listener's detriment.

[thraxx]

Not really a power shift as such but Stuart Murdoch allowing the mediocre talents of Jackson, Campbell and Martin to add their shoddy songs to Belle & Sebastian albums has generally been to the listener's detriment. Then again, in recent years, Stuart Murdoch adding his own shoddy songs to Belle & Sebastian albums has generally been to the listener's detriment.

This sums up the situation perfectly pretty much.  It became noticeable on Fold Your Hands... but listening back you can hear it on The Boy With The Arab Strap.

[a duncandisorderly]

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,65433.390/topicseen.html

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I suppose The Monkees count as an example of this. There was never a shift in power dynamics from within the band as such*, but wrestling creative control from Don 'The Man with the Golden Ear' Kirshner was a major shift in they way they operated.

And what about The Kinks? Initially a fairly bog-standard rhythm and blues covers band with Ray and Dave on more or less equal pegging, before Ray started writing (great) songs and became their driving force. During their '70s conceptual phase, the other guys were basically his backing musicians, much to Dave's understandable chagrin.

Roger Daltrey was the 'leader' of The Who/High Numbers until Townshend seized control. That didn't go down well with Rog at first, but he eventually came to his senses** and realised that The Who without Townshend in charge would never get anywhere.

* Nesmith always had more self-penned tracks on their albums, but that's because he was a better and more prolific songwriter than the other guys. There's no firm evidence to corroborate the oft-repeated claim that Nesmith wanted to push the band towards a country-rock sound, as the only songs they recorded in that vein were written and sung by him. He was quite happy for them to continue being a pop-rock group with occasional countrified leanings.

** Admittedly after being threatened with the sack when he punched Keith Moon in the face.

[a duncandisorderly]

That didn't go down well with Rog at first, but he eventually came to his senses

ironic, then, that he goes on to play "tommy"...

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

ironic, then, that he goes on to play "tommy"...

That deserves a triumphant Daltrey "YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!" roar.

[Sin Agog]

Jerry Butler & The Impressions.  The Impressions & Jerry Butler.  The Impressions.  Curtis Mayfield & The Impressions.  Took over ten years for Curtis Mayfield to finally make an impression.

[The Unknown]

I sometimes wonder about Radiohead. Are they really the collective they present themselves to be, or does the songwriting gravitate towards Yorke/Jonny almost by default, or is Yorke still dictating things a bit? I know Yorke once said (around Hail to the Thief, I think) that the dynamic became a lot more healthy than it was in their early days, when he likened himself to Stalin, but can we believe that holds all the time?

[lazyhour]

I'm not too au fait with their ins and outs, but aren't Tears For Fears a good 80s example of this?

[The Unknown]

Pink Floyd the other obvious one, arguably happened several times.

The Byrds too. Clark steers the ship, then leaves. McGuinn, Crosby and Hillman assume responsibility, Crosby steps forward, then is fired. Parsons is hired as a keyboard player, Parsons steps forward, then leaves (though his dominance had waned by that point).

I don't think there was a single domineering creative force after that, during the McGuinn-Battin-White-(Gene) Parsons era and leading up to their breakup in '73, but I could be wrong.

They had kind of a 'revolving door' dynamic going on there.

[The Culture Bunker]

top blokes, the both of them. the crowdies came to Mtv in november of 1993. we did this thing where a camera crew went in & out of the guitar shops in denmark street, ostensibly looking for a hired-gun guitar slinger to join the band, though we already had tim there with neil.
later, when we were de-rigging the studio at 3am & I remembered I was getting a cab home, I swiped the carpet that they'd been set up on. it's still in my home-studio.

I rate NF very highly as a singer-songwriter, but I don't think he's made a good move joining the mac.

I'm a huge fan of his songwriting too (though CH's album quality does seem to drop off after Paul Hester's death, which perhaps says something?) and I cannot work out why he'd do this Fleetwood Mac thing. He surely doesn't need the money?

I'm not too au fait with their ins and outs, but aren't Tears For Fears a good 80s example of this?

Roland Orzabel was always the primary songwriter, it was more a case that he decided to sing most of the songs too - on "Songs from the Big Chair", Curt Smith only sings lead on two songs and on "The Seeds of Love" it's about one a half, compared to fronting most of the singles from the debut.

I thought their "Everybody Loves a Happy Ending" was pretty bloody brilliant and they still tour now and then, so I assume they get along better now. Nice Curt Smith cameo in Psyche, too.

[Sin Agog]

I think Rocket From the Tombs was mainly the unsung geetar hero/fellow journalist friend of Lester Bangs Peter Laughner's baby, but then when he died Crocus Behemoth/Dave Thomas took over the reigns and morphed them into Pere Ubu with some less cathartic and more wiry versions of some of the same songs.  Then, perhaps unwisely (though I'm in the minority in digging the results), they welcomed outsider icon Mayo Thompson into the fold, who promptly completely took over and turned them into an atonal mess of animal noises, sea shanties and scrunched up pop music, before buggering off into the wilderness.  They then took in another avant-icon Chris Cutler, who I imagine was a bit better at playing well with others than Mayo, only for them to become almost a straight-ahead pop band under his aegis.  They continued to zig and zag a few other directions after he left, but I mostly stopped paying attention at that point.  Dave Thomas does live just a few miles from me in Hove, but the one time I tried to talk to him while he was out walking his dog, he told me to fuck off.  I suspect the dog's the one calling the shots in Pere Ubu at this point.

[a duncandisorderly]

Roland Orzabel was always the primary songwriter, it was more a case that he decided to sing most of the songs too - on "Songs from the Big Chair", Curt Smith only sings lead on two songs and on "The Seeds of Love" it's about one a half, compared to fronting most of the singles from the debut.

I thought their "Everybody Loves a Happy Ending" was pretty bloody brilliant and they still tour now and then, so I assume they get along better now. Nice Curt Smith cameo in Psyche, too.

when I saw TFF in late 1981 at the hammersmith palais (supporting thompson twins), it was just the two of them & a teac 3440, a la OMD or human league. it seemed pretty evenly balanced then, & they blew the headline act away.
fast-forward twelve years, & they're on the Mtv playlist... someone has the bright idea of booking one of them to guest-host ray cokes' show while he has a break. booked the wrong one. curt, bless him, had no screen magic & no rapport with the hundreds of kids phoning the show from all over europe. I think they had already stopped speaking to each other again by this time.

[The Culture Bunker]

when I saw TFF in late 1981 at the hammersmith palais (supporting thompson twins), it was just the two of them & a teac 3440, a la OMD or human league. it seemed pretty evenly balanced then, & they blew the headline act away.
fast-forward twelve years, & they're on the Mtv playlist... someone has the bright idea of booking one of them to guest-host ray cokes' show while he has a break. booked the wrong one. curt, bless him, had no screen magic & no rapport with the hundreds of kids phoning the show from all over europe. I think they had already stopped speaking to each other again by this time.

If it was 1993, Smith had left the band by then, so presumably he was plugging his first solo album. Given he (at least subsequently claims) only put it out to fullfill his contract, it may explain any lack of enthusiasm.

[a duncandisorderly]

the weirdest one for me is Pixies. they all say it was Black's band first and foremost and that despite fans wanting more Kim, Kim was happy to have her own band and just play bass/sing backup. But he still walked and did his own thing. think that's just the sign of people being strange and not getting on.

the talk page behind the wikipedia entry is interesting... talk pages are almost always the first thing I look at on wikipedia- see how diverse a crowd of interested parties have contributed to an entry, & what the contentious points are. the entry for bass guitars, for instance... but I digress, as lemmy would say. there are several people fiercely proprietorial about pixies data, & slugging it out over the birth-date of the band; did it start when black-thomson & santiago were still at college, prior to hiring the other two? even the intervention of actual band members doesn't stop the bickering.

anyway, the power struggle with mrs murphy really began when they started touring. looking at kim deal's history (she & kelley were already calling themselves 'the breeders' & had built a home-studio before she joined pixies) it seems inevitable.

[a duncandisorderly]

If it was 1993, Smith had left the band by then, so presumably he was plugging his first solo album. Given he (at least subsequently claims) only put it out to fullfill his contract, it may explain any lack of enthusiasm.

yes... must've been... this was before roland's post-curt TFF album came out that year... I think the curt visit was in february. I'm still pretty sure that someone booked the wrong one though.
this is the same Mtv, after all, who celebrated a revival of "rocky horror show" with a package about the works of tim rice instead of tim curry. as a studio tech not (at the time) directly employed by Mtv, it was difficult for me to intervene, especially as the "news" bulletin was due to air within the hour. I can't remember, but I think there was a hasty rewrite.

[The Culture Bunker]

You could actually say Tears for Fears are a (rare?) example of power dynamics becoming more democratic, as when they reformed about 15 years ago to make a (very underrated, I though) new album, Curt Smith had far more songwriting credits than any previous TFF album.

[thecuriousorange]

Noel Gallagher let other (new) band members write songs on later Oasis albums. This was a desperate attempt to mask the fact his own creative well had run dry.

[Pepotamo1985]

Could it be said that everyone in the Floyd got a crack at being leader at some point?

- Syd writing and singing all the early stuff
- Rick pushed to the front to sing when Syd dropped out (didn't last long)
- Nick pushing the band through the noisemaking of Ummagumma and Pompeii era
- Roger gradually taking over from Dark Side on
- Dave taking control in the late 80s

Good call on Rick, that's definitely something that they tried to get going - he did have a cracking set of pipes tbf - and isn't really acknowledged. I think Nick is a massive stretch though - the band (to my mind) were just a bit lost, so Mason may have gained a prominence in the confusion and lack of certain direction/leadership. The psychedelic era was dead and buried, and prog hadn't really taken off either, so they were a halfway house, trying to see what worked, throwing crap at the wall, giving everyone an opportunity to do their thing. UmmaGumma and Atom Heart Mother are great examples of this of course - one big band tune then pretty much a song each on the second half. Likewise, the album More is really fascinating to me on that basis - it's not particularly brilliant or musically interesting (some great tracks on it of course)  but you can see them trying to apply the Barrett-era harmonies and psychedelic discipline to more conventional song structures and styles , sometimes nailing it sometimes not. If you strip out UG and AHM from the discography there's quite a logical and perceptible progression from that record to Meddle and Obscured By Clouds, and then DSOTM - as if they concluded this arty prog shit wasn't really working for them and decided to drop it in favour of what they were trying on More. In any event, they lacked the virtuoso skill/grandiose songwriting vision to really go that way anyway IMO.