Fuck Batman

[Small Man Big Horse]

Yep, it's the Titans thread, the first original output of DC's new streaming service, which is grim dark and contains swearing because they won't learn their fucking lesson.

It starts off with a girl having a nightmare which is conveniently Dick Grayson's origin story, so there's two dead people within the first five minutes. I couldn't keep up with the death count after Robin Nightwing murders a fuck load of drug dealers, but we're easily in double figures after 15 minutes. The violence is extreme too, and it'd probably be pretty horrific if it wasn't for the muted colours in nearly every scene.

I didn't realise it was created by Greg Berlanti, Akiva Goldsman and Geoff Johns before watching it but if I had I'd have probably not have bothered as I'm not a fan of any of their work at all, especially Goldsman and Johns. Both are credited as writing the first episode and I have no idea how Goldsman keeps on getting work considering the atrocities he's been responsible for. It's a cliche to say he must be blackmailing someone, but I can only presume he has photos of the head of Warner Brothers fucking twenty eight dogs. Probably underage dogs at that.

But...This was surprisingly okay! It's so brutally over the top I found myself interested in it, and whilst some of the dialogue is weak there's enough going on that I'll probably stick with it for the time being. It probably helps that I grew up reading DC comics though, and if you're not in to superhero stuff this won't convert you, but it was actually better than I thought it'd be.

[Alberon]

I hope its good, they're spinning Doom Patrol off of it. And that's the only superhero team I have any time for, if only because it was superbly mental at its height.

[Small Man Big Horse]

I hope its good, they're spinning Doom Patrol off of it. And that's the only superhero team I have any time for, if only because it was superbly mental at its height.

Yeah, I love Doom Patrol to pieces and have high hopes due to the casting, but the fact that it's written by Jeremy Carver (Supernatural, US Being Human, Frequency) leads to some concerns. Apparently we'll see them in the fifth episode of Titans (written by Geoff Johns, alas) so should have some idea of how they'll be handled then.

[Kelvin]

I didn't realise it was created by Greg Berlanti, Akiva Goldsman and Geoff Johns before watching it but if I had I'd have probably not have bothered as I'm not a fan of any of their work at all, especially Goldsman and Johns.

Johns is very workmanlike. Competent, but never interesting or inspiring. The Chris Chibnall of DC. He does understand the characters pretty well, though, so I'm surprised to hear he has Grayson killing people in this. That seems like a direction a producer who didn't care about the source material would take.   

[Mister Six]

Yeah, I love Doom Patrol to pieces and have high hopes due to the casting, but the fact that it's written by Jeremy Carver (Supernatural, US Being Human, Frequency) leads to some concerns.

Don't know about the other two but he wrote for seasons 3-5 and co-produced the fifth season of Supernatural, which was excellent. He also wrote for seasons 8-10 but I jumped off at season 7 so I can't speak to that.

Basically I'm not concerned about his involvement at all.

[Small Man Big Horse]

Johns is very workmanlike. Competent, but never interesting or inspiring. The Chris Chibnall of DC. He does understand the characters pretty well, though, so I'm surprised to hear he has Grayson killing people in this. That seems like a direction a producer who didn't care about the source material would take.

Maybe it's just the stuff I've read of his and other, better stuff exists but everything I've read I've strongly disliked, he's currently doing the Watchmen / DC Universe crossover Doomsday Clock and that's appalling, one of the worst things I've read in years.

Don't know about the other two but he wrote for seasons 3-5 and co-produced the fifth season of Supernatural, which was excellent. He also wrote for seasons 8-10 but I jumped off at season 7 so I can't speak to that.

Basically I'm not concerned about his involvement at all.

That's good to hear, I've not watched Supernatural (bar the pilot which was okay but didn't grab me) but Being Human was really shoddy, but hopefully he's improved since then. Or that it was the network who were responsible for it being so bland.

[Mister Six]

Supernatural's first season is shaky (let me know if you want it and I'll send you a curated episode guide) but the second to fifth seasons are among the best genre TV ever produced. The worldbuilding is extraordinarily well done, with each new element of the mythology seamlessly fitting into - and sometimes even improving on - what came before.

It's also the best adaptation of the comic book Hellblazer ever made, and that includes both of the actual adaptations.

Eric Kripke, the show's creator, left at the end of season five and it pretty much immediately runs out of ideas and starts running around in circles. I gather it improved after Carver took over and someone said the recent seasons (which he's not involved in) are very good. I can't be arsed though - far too much to watch these days to get back into it.

[Kelvin]

Maybe it's just the stuff I've read of his and other, better stuff exists but everything I've read I've strongly disliked, he's currently doing the Watchmen / DC Universe crossover Doomsday Clock and that's appalling, one of the worst things I've read in years.

As I say, I don't consider him a good writer, or one I'd bother going out of my way to read. The only thing by him that I actually like is Forever Evil, about the DC villains working together under Luthor to defeat Ultraman and his team. Even that's not great, but I really liked his portrayal of Luthor. It's actually one of the best iterations of the character that I've read.

[garnish]

What is this show called and is it a cartoon or what

[mjwilson]

It's called "Fuck Batman" obviously

[Small Man Big Horse]

Supernatural's first season is shaky (let me know if you want it and I'll send you a curated episode guide) but the second to fifth seasons are among the best genre TV ever produced. The worldbuilding is extraordinarily well done, with each new element of the mythology seamlessly fitting into - and sometimes even improving on - what came before.

It's also the best adaptation of the comic book Hellblazer ever made, and that includes both of the actual adaptations.

Eric Kripke, the show's creator, left at the end of season five and it pretty much immediately runs out of ideas and starts running around in circles. I gather it improved after Carver took over and someone said the recent seasons (which he's not involved in) are very good. I can't be arsed though - far too much to watch these days to get back into it.

I appreciate the offer but my other half has been trying to get me to watch it for years, and there's so much other great tv that I'm behind on I doubt it'll ever happen.

As I say, I don't consider him a good writer, or one I'd bother going out of my way to read. The only thing by him that I actually like is Forever Evil, about the DC villains working together under Luthor to defeat Ultraman and his team. Even that's not great, but I really liked his portrayal of Luthor. It's actually one of the best iterations of the character that I've read.

Right, I'm off to read this now but if I don't like it I'm not only going to murder you, but also your whole family. And probably everyone you've ever met, if I have the time.

Edit: Ah, it is quite good isn't it. Ridiculously OTT but it's a nicely daft piece of supervillain-y.

What is this show called and is it a cartoon or what

It's called Fuck Batman Titans and it's a live action show, the first to appear on DC's new streaming service. I named the thread "Fuck Batman" as it's something Nightwing says in the first episode, along with how he doesn't hang around with Bats anymore as he was too violent, despite the fact that Bruce Wayne doesn't actually kill people (well, rarely anyhow, if you ignore the terrible DC movies) and Nightwing's more than happy to massacre large groups of evil doers.

[Kelvin]

Right, I'm off to read this now but if I don't like it I'm not only going to murder you, but also your whole family. And probably everyone you've ever met, if I have the time.

Edit: Ah, it is quite good isn't it. Ridiculously OTT but it's a nicely daft piece of supervillain-y.

Yeah. The plot is entirely functional, but it's an interesting take on the supervillain team up, and I really like the more morally ambiguous Luthor. You can never tell precisely why he's doing something; because it's the right thing to do, because it's the pragmatic thing to do, or because he's manipulating everyone.

[Deanjam]

I have no idea how Goldsman keeps on getting work considering the atrocities he's been responsible for. It's a cliche to say he must be blackmailing someone, but I can only presume he has photos of the head of Warner Brothers fucking twenty eight dogs. Probably underage dogs at that.

Looked this guy up and, holy crap Batman, he's written some shit.

Writer (23 credits)
2020 Doctor Sleep (draft) (filming)
2018 Titans (TV Series) (created by - 13 episodes, 2018) (written by - 1 episode, 2018)
- Episode #1.3 (2018) ... (creator)
- Episode #1.2 (2018) ... (creator)
- Episode #1.1 (2018) ... (creator) / (written by)
- Episode #1.13 ... (creator)
- Episode #1.12 ... (creator)
- Episode #1.11 ... (creator)
- Episode #1.10 ... (creator)
- Episode #1.9 ... (creator)
- Episode #1.8 ... (creator)
- Episode #1.7 ... (creator)
- Episode #1.6 ... (creator)
- The Doom Patrol ... (creator)
- Episode #1.4 ... (creator)
2018 Star Trek: Discovery (TV Series) (story - 1 episode, 2018) (teleplay by - 1 episode, 2017)
- Will You Take My Hand? (2018) ... (story)
- The Vulcan Hello (2017) ... (teleplay by)
2017 The Dark Tower (screenplay by)
2017 Transformers: The Last Knight (story by)
2017 Rings (screenplay by)
2016 The 5th Wave (screenplay by)
2015 Insurgent (screenplay)
2014 A New York Winter's Tale (screenplay)
2012 Fringe (TV Series) (written by - 12 episodes, 2009 - 2012) (story - 7 episodes, 2009 - 2011)
- Brave New World: Part 2 (2012) ... (written by)
- Brave New World: Part 1 (2012) ... (written by)
- Letters of Transit (2012) ... (written by)
- Nothing As It Seems (2012) ... (written by)
- Making Angels (2012) ... (written by)
- Subject 9 (2011) ... (written by)
- Neither Here Nor There (2011) ... (story)
- The Day We Died (2011) ... (story)
- Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (2011) ... (story)
- Stowaway (2011) ... (story)
- Subject 13 (2011) ... (written by)
- Over There: Part 2 (2010) ... (written by)
- Over There: Part 1 (2010) ... (written by)
- Brown Betty (2010) ... (written by)
- Peter (2010) ... (story)
- A New Day in the Old Town (2009) ... (written by)
- There's More Than One of Everything (2009) ... (story)
- The Road Not Taken (2009) ... (story)
- Bad Dreams (2009) ... (written by)
2009 Angels & Demons (screenplay)
2007 I Am Legend (screenplay)
2006 The Da Vinci Code (screenplay)
2005 Cinderella Man (screenplay)
2004 I, Robot (screenplay)
2001 A Beautiful Mind (written by)
1998 Practical Magic (screenplay)
1998 Lost in Space (written by)
1997 Batman & Robin (written by)
1996 A Time to Kill (screenplay)
1995 Batman Forever (screenplay)
1994 Silent Fall (written by)
1994 The Client (screenplay)

I remember having a good laugh at the trailer for this from Comic Con (think it was on a Red Letter Media vid).

[Small Man Big Horse]

Yeah. The plot is entirely functional, but it's an interesting take on the supervillain team up, and I really like the more morally ambiguous Luthor. You can never tell precisely why he's doing something; because it's the right thing to do, because it's the pragmatic thing to do, or because he's manipulating everyone.

Just finished it now and agree with all you say there, perhaps I need to reevaluate my feelings towards Johns and give some of his other work a go. On the subject of Luthor, did you ever read Paul Cornell's run on Action Comics? As he did some interesting things with the character as well.

[garnish]

I'm fairly sure the writer you're all talking about did an interview with the Empire magazine podcast where he talked quite a lot about how things went so wrong with the Batman & Robin film.

[Kelvin]

Just finished it now and agree with all you say there, perhaps I need to reevaluate my feelings towards Johns and give some of his other work a go. On the subject of Luthor, did you ever read Paul Cornell's run on Action Comics? As he did some interesting things with the character as well.

No, I've never read that. I probably should, as I've gone from thinking Luthor is a really boring villain, to thinking he's one of the most interesting, complex and versatile in trad superhero comics.

[Shaky]

To go off on a tangent, my kids insisted we get the animated "Return of the Caped Crusaders" from the library recently, with West, Ward & Newmar reprising their roles from the TV show. After a bit of a slow beginning it's very good fun indeed and does a good job nailing the feel of the series while including a few sly modern winks. Adam West's old man voice takes a bit of getting used to, mind.

[kngen]

Looked this guy up and, holy crap Batman, he's written some shit.

He won a Best Screenplay Oscar for A Beautiful Mind just a few years after he wrote Batman & Robin. Maybe people are always banking on his next thing being equally lauded and popular. By that measure, given all the toss he's been involved with, when he does come good again, it'll be the greatest piece of fuck known to shit.

[Thursday]

I'm disappointed this thread wasn't a rant about Batman being an arsehole, so I'm going to have to link to madhair's brilliant thread instead

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,48917.0.html

[Golden E. Pump]

If I had to, I'd probably go Clooney, Bale, Keaton, Kilmer, Affleck, West.

The last one might prove difficult now.

[Small Man Big Horse]

No, I've never read that. I probably should, as I've gone from thinking Luthor is a really boring villain, to thinking he's one of the most interesting, complex and versatile in trad superhero comics.

I was never that in to him either but Cornell's run won me round, and it's quite a similar portrayal to that of John's in Forever Evil.

If I had to, I'd probably go Clooney, Bale, Keaton, Kilmer, Affleck, West.

The last one might prove difficult now.

It's Keaton, West, Bale, Clooney, Affleck and Kilmer for me.

[bgmnts]

Keaton, Kilmer, West, Bale, Clooney.

I haven't seen affleck Batman but can only imagine he would be on the upper end of that list.

[saltysnacks]

Doesn't Fatfleck kill like 30 people in BvS?

[AsparagusTrevor]

Doesn't Fatfleck kill like 30 people in BvS?

Batman's always killed people in the films. Keaton's Batman chucked people off buildings, burned them and blew them up with a smile on his face. Kilmer's Batman straight up snapped a henchman's neck. Bale burned a building full of people alive while he touched himself.

I saw a video on Youtube, probably Cinema Sins or some other shite, which took a tally of everyone he kills in BvS but they counted people who got punched a bit hard, or got thrown into walls, crashed cars etc, plus the people in the apocalypse dream sequence which obviously wasn't real. I think he actually only kills about 15 people, so he's only mildly psychopathic.

[gatchamandave]

West, Conroy, Keaton for me and then the rest are pretty much on a par with one another.

[saltysnacks]

Batman's always killed people in the films. Keaton's Batman chucked people off buildings, burned them and blew them up with a smile on his face. Kilmer's Batman straight up snapped a henchman's neck. Bale burned a building full of people alive while he touched himself.

I saw a video on Youtube, probably Cinema Sins or some other shite, which took a tally of everyone he kills in BvS but they counted people who got punched a bit hard, or got thrown into walls, crashed cars etc, plus the people in the apocalypse dream sequence which obviously wasn't real. I think he actually only kills about 15 people, so he's only mildly psychopathic.

Fair enough, I don't really have a problem with Batman killing people. It's now very dated and quite impossible to imagine him maintaining that rule.

[kidsick5000]

Eric Kripke, the show's creator, left at the end of season five

Good grief! That long ago?

[Mister Six]

Yup!

Fair enough, I don't really have a problem with Batman killing people. It's now very dated and quite impossible to imagine him maintaining that rule.

At what point did not murdering people become both impractical and impossible?

Batman's no killing, no guns rule has been at the centre of his character for so long that it really is wrong not to keep it, especially in a franchise where you're supposed to be presenting your platonic ideal Batman. It's one thing to have the Burton films, which exist in their own little universe, and another to present a character who's supposed to be the Batman interacting with other prominent heroes, and have him shooting people down, branding them and breaking their necks.

[Kelvin]

another to present a character who's supposed to be the Batman...breaking their necks.

Yeah, that's Superman's schtick!

[Mister Six]

Don't get me started.