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Making a Murderer - Series 2 [split topic]

Started by holyzombiejesus, September 26, 2018, 02:00:49 PM

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darby o chill

Zellner today:

QuoteMaking a Murderer watchers, listen up.  I'm going to walk you through what I've learned through my investigation that you didn't see in the show.

1 . On 10/31/05, Scott Tadych visited Bobby at the Avery salvage yard (ASY) around noon.

2. After Teresa (TH) called the Dassey landline for directions, our suspect contacted her back with the Dassey address.

3. Teresa arrived at the ASY around 2:30–2:31 p.m. on 10/31/05.  Only Bobby and Steven saw her.  After completing her photo assignment, she left & turned West on Hwy 147 around 2:38 p.m.  Our suspect followed her.  Steven was in his trailer.

4. Our suspect gets TH to pull over.  She opened her car's rear cargo door to retrieve her camera, was knocked to the ground and struck with an object.

5. TH was put in the rear cargo area of the RAV4 and driven back to ASY.

6. TH's RAV4 was spotted leaving the ASY with an unknown driver at 3:45 p.m.

7. RAV4 was left by the old dam West of Mishicot on 10/31/05.

8. 3 witnesses saw RAV4 up to 11/4/05, then it was gone.

9. Recent investigation shows the RAV4 battery died, so it was replaced in order to move the RAV4 to the ASY.

10. TH's body was burned in a burn barrel.  Dassey burn barrel had human bones.

11. 60% of bones and 31 teeth missing

12. A witness smelled horrible odor of something burning in Manitowoc County gravel pit the evening of 10/31/05.

13. The Dassey garage was never luminoled or DNA tested.  Bobby hung a deer in the Dassey garage on 11/4/05.

14. Sikikey note—Body burned at smelter 11/4/05, 3 a.m.  Tadych worked the night shift at a smelter facility.  His nickname: Skinny.

15. TH's electronics were not burned in Steven's burn barrel; they were burned in Dassey burn barrel.

16. Suspect knew Steven's finger re-bled on 11/3/05 because he observed it.

17. Suspect had access to Steven's trailer to remove blood from the sink.

18. Only our suspect knew the blood in the sink was Steven's and not TH's (this rules out the police).

19. Suspect planted blood in RAV4, bones in Steven's burn pit, and TH's electronics in Steven's burn barrel.

In conclusion, the killer is the person who had the access and opportunity to plant Steven Avery's fresh blood in Teresa Halbach's car.  Use #AskZellner for questions

Replies From View

Doesn't releasing this information publicly jeopardise the possible success of a retrial?  Or does it not matter?

darby o chill

Quote from: Replies From View on November 15, 2018, 11:38:01 PM
Doesn't releasing this information publicly jeopardise the possible success of a retrial?  Or does it not matter?
I don't know, I'm just watching from the sidelines reading both the guilty and innocent subs on reddit.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/ is good for info.

This, coupled with the admission to his mom, looks pretty damning.


Replies From View

Quote from: darby o chill on November 16, 2018, 12:13:11 AM
This, coupled with the admission to his mom, looks pretty damning.



Have you read the rest of the transcripts?  The process by which Dassey created that series of events before that summary, coerced by Fassbender and Wiegert with leading questions, was ridiculous and horrible.

darby o chill

Quote from: Replies From View on November 16, 2018, 12:20:37 AM
Have you read the rest of the transcripts?  The process by which Dassey created that series of events before that summary, coerced by Fassbender and Wiegert with leading questions, was ridiculous and horrible.
Yeah I read loads of it. The part where he says she told him 'not to do it' and 'run and get help' didn't strike me as something a simpleton would invent under pressure. Guess I'm leaning towards guilty but fuck knows.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Crabwalk on November 09, 2018, 04:32:00 PM
You say it's usually incredibly difficult to reverse the conviction of people - and of course, that's true - yet it's happened once to Avery already and Zellner's managed it plenty of times elsewhere.


There was virtually no evidence against him in the first case and his exoneration came because DNA showed beyond any dispute he was innocent and most importantly that someone else did it. The halbach case couldn't be more different than that, a vast list of reasons he's guilty and no positive evidence of innocence. In appeals just attacking the existing case rarely seems to cut it from what I've seen.

Crabwalk

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 16, 2018, 07:37:56 AM

There was virtually no evidence against him in the first case and his exoneration came because DNA showed beyond any dispute he was innocent and most importantly that someone else did it.

Right. So you're original assertion was incorrect. Thanks for confirming!

biggytitbo

Quote from: Crabwalk on November 16, 2018, 08:16:46 AM
Right. So you're original assertion was incorrect. Thanks for confirming!


Well not really, I'm saying its so hard to win an appeal or overturn a conviction that even sometimes when you have those things they still don't get overturned. And without some slam dunk new positive evidence, it becomes virtually impossible.

Replies From View

Quote from: darby o chill on November 16, 2018, 12:26:04 AM
Yeah I read loads of it. The part where he says she told him 'not to do it' and 'run and get help' didn't strike me as something a simpleton would invent under pressure. Guess I'm leaning towards guilty but fuck knows.

But that segment is a recap where he's repeating what he has already said under pressure.  At that point they have confirmed that this is the story they want to hear, and they have repeated certain details back to him, and now he is more confidently repeating that information in a summary that they will be able to use out of context (and mislead people like yourself).  Don't forget he just wants to say what they want to hear so he can get out of there after hours of being held in.

Based on biggy and now this, my inclination is to suggest that people read the transcripts in their entirety without the reddit spin helping you along.

Replies From View

This has all reminded me of my "something with the head" thread which didn't go anywhere:  https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=64733.0

darby o chill

QuoteBased on biggy and now this, my inclination is to suggest that people read the transcripts in their entirety without the reddit spin helping you along.

I read everything. And watched the interview tapes. Reddit 'spin' doesn't exist if you check each side for a balanced view.

Quote from: Replies From View on November 16, 2018, 08:36:22 AM
mislead people like yourself

Stop that.


Replies From View

Quote from: darby o chill on November 16, 2018, 08:53:33 AM
Stop that.

No offence intended; sorry.  I just meant people who have skimmed certain things about this case rather than looked at its details in depth, which you have clarified doesn't mean you in any case.

darby o chill

Fairplay. It was a lighthearted comment anyway.
The whole thing is frustrating. Zellner tweets a few theories yesterday and The Mirror runs with "Making A Murderer: NEW evidence proves Steven Avery's innocence"


Crabwalk

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 16, 2018, 08:36:11 AM

Well not really, I'm saying its so hard to win an appeal or overturn a conviction that even sometimes when you have those things they still don't get overturned. And without some slam dunk new positive evidence, it becomes virtually impossible.

Inspector Cluefarter closes the case then. Glad he's not trying to get me out of jail.

biggytitbo

Quote from: darby o chill on November 16, 2018, 09:28:14 AM
Fairplay. It was a lighthearted comment anyway.
The whole thing is frustrating. Zellner tweets a few theories yesterday and The Mirror runs with "Making A Murderer: NEW evidence proves Steven Avery's innocence"

Making a Murder stories are good clickbait, and some people hang on Zellner's every brainfart as if she is Columbo and not some celebrity defence attorney flinging as much shit at the wall as possible in the hope that something, anything sticks.

An excellent combo for endless stupid, empty news stories basically. It'll be Zellner's new evidence PROVES Steven Avery has some unbeatable Black Friday deals next.

Crabwalk

Just watch the series ya dild. (Not that you're entirely wrong).

biggytitbo

Quote from: Crabwalk on November 16, 2018, 01:31:40 PM
Inspector Cluefarter closes the case then. Glad he's not trying to get me out of jail.


He's prepared to fart on Steven Avery for a small fee.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 16, 2018, 02:17:45 PM
Making a Murder stories are good clickbait, and some people hang on Zellner's every brainfart as if she is Columbo and not some celebrity defence attorney flinging as much shit at the wall as possible in the hope that something, anything sticks.

An excellent combo for endless stupid, empty news stories basically. It'll be Zellner's new evidence PROVES Steven Avery has some unbeatable Black Friday deals next.

I was reading through the list of Colombo episodes on wikipedia last night and saw that his final case involved him attending a rave...in 2003!

Crabwalk

He'd have probably been younger than Pete Tong is now.

Ja'moke

Quote from: Replies From View on November 16, 2018, 08:36:22 AM
But that segment is a recap where he's repeating what he has already said under pressure.  At that point they have confirmed that this is the story they want to hear, and they have repeated certain details back to him, and now he is more confidently repeating that information in a summary that they will be able to use out of context (and mislead people like yourself).  Don't forget he just wants to say what they want to hear so he can get out of there after hours of being held in.

Based on biggy and now this, my inclination is to suggest that people read the transcripts in their entirety without the reddit spin helping you along.

I recently read the transcripts in their entirety (not just the main one, but the first interviews at the school and in the cop car), and I'm just not sure what the hell to make of Brendan.

He first says that when he got home from school that he didn't see Teresa. And that her car wasn't there. Then he says, no, actually, he did see Teresa with Steven, she was taking photos of the jeep and then she got in her car and left, and she drove past him and his brother (Blaine? I forget all the Dassey brothers names) out of the driveway.

But then later he says he saw Teresa with Steven as he watched from his kitchen window, and he saw her get in her car and leave.

All this is within the very first interview, where the police weren't as pushy and manipulative as the later interviews.

Blaine, in his interview, said he didn't see Teresa or Steven, and he was walking with Brendan off the school bus.

So what the hell is going on in Brendan's mind?


Ferris

Started watching this on a whim. Agree with the majority opinions here - the family stuff feels like mawkish filler and some of Zellner's stuff is ludicrous self-aggrandizement (and pretty tasteless), but there's a significant volume of reasonable doubt presented (even accounting for editorial bias).

Twed

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on November 18, 2018, 04:54:55 AMsome of Zellner's stuff is ludicrous self-aggrandizement (and pretty tasteless)
To me she seems humble enough, there's just no false modesty. I love the way her brain works, the way she rationalises things. I hope she's more in-depth about her conclusions than appears on camera* but in general I think she's incredible.

The big downer for me is knowing that there's no conclusion at the end of this, because I would have heard about it in the news.

* "We tried to reproduce it but our one attempt didn't work!"

Moribunderast

Finally gotten around to watching this. Have to echo the majority opinion here that the season really dragged due to being stretched out with unnecessary and boring filler. It felt like they really wanted to establish the slow process of justice and it's effect on the families but they established that early and then kept hammering it home. The actual investigative segments remained very interesting but the show would have greatly benefitted from being 5 or 6 episodes rather than 10.

I've got no idea where I stand on the case. So many of the authorities and details seem suspect and Zellner did a good job calling into question much of the evidence (along with Dassey's obviously coerced confession) but she kinda lost me by pointing the finger of suspicion at Bobby, Tadych AND the ex-boyfriend. It just makes the conspiracy seem way too convoluted, which is where my main doubts are raised.

Still a very interesting case but in terms of the documentary I think the 2nd season was overlong and not very clear in it's aims or conclusions.

DrGreggles

Quote from: Moribunderast on January 06, 2019, 02:03:38 AM
Zellner did a good job calling into question much of the evidence (along with Dassey's obviously coerced confession) but she kinda lost me by pointing the finger of suspicion at Bobby, Tadych AND the ex-boyfriend.

Wasn't that her just showing that other viable suspects weren't investigated?
She's not saying that they did it, she's saying that they could have done it.
I can't remember the legal term, but it's something else that be used as a basis to appeal. Zellner's simultaneously going down various different avenues and this is just one of them.

kngen

Quote from: Moribunderast on January 06, 2019, 02:03:38 AM
pointing the finger of suspicion at Bobby, Tadych AND the ex-boyfriend.

Yeah, probably could have been made clearer, but I think the intimation was that her ex was complicit in fitting up Avery at the behest of the cops. Furthermore, his weird behaviour should have at least made him a person of interest rather than an eager collaborator, which underlines that the police only ever had Avery in mind. All of that goes some way to explaining the zeal in which he becomes de facto spokesman for the family, and how he insists Avery is 100% guilty despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

Grieving friends and family are always the least reliable voices in these matters (and the stock that media, if no-one else, puts in their testimonies, is as ridiculous as it is exploitative) As a victim of violent crime myself, I'm painfully aware how skewed your perception becomes in the desire to see some sort of resolution and closure to the trauma you've experience, even if - deep down - you know it's not entirely accurate. But, taking that into account, there was always something off about that fucker's attitude - definitely hiding something, even if it is just being an accessory to an obstruction of justice.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Moribunderast on January 06, 2019, 02:03:38 AM
Finally gotten around to watching this. Have to echo the majority opinion here that the season really dragged due to being stretched out with unnecessary and boring filler...

Hopefully, next season, they'll bring in some new writers.

Moribunderast

Quote from: St_Eddie on January 06, 2019, 09:06:25 PM
Hopefully, next season, they'll bring in some new writers.

The dialogue could definitely be sharpened. I find it wholly unbelievable that an entire family only communicates by saying "Yeah" to one another over and over.

Quote from: kngen on January 06, 2019, 02:02:52 PM
Yeah, probably could have been made clearer, but I think the intimation was that her ex was complicit in fitting up Avery at the behest of the cops.

Yeah, I got that she wasn't lumping Bobby Dassey, Tadych and the ex-boyfriend all together into some insane scheme and that she was alluding to him helping falsify evidence but, even then, I start to feel like the narrative is strained. It's why I find the case so compelling because I do think Brendan's confession was bullshit and that throws a lot of doubt onto whether Steven did it but the alternative involves so many insane things happening and while they're not impossible, a lot had to go right/wrong for them to all work out. Like, how did the cops know Steven had accidentally got blood on his sink - thus allowing them to sneak in and clean/swab it up (as Zellner and Steven posit)? How did they know the ex-boyfriend would be totally cool with falsifying evidence (in that scenario I CAN envision possibly them playing the "Help us out - this is the guy but we need to make sure we get him" deal). All manner of things in the apparent stitch-up seem very convenient or far-fetched. I also wasn't entirely sure why Tadych was brought into it along with Bobby? But I have to admit I started flipping through my ipad quite a lot during episodes as the family stuff got fucking boring.

I'd be interested in a list of evidence against Avery that only includes what hasn't been debunked or relies on Dassey's confession. I'm loose on some of the details from S1 as it was so long ago so I'm probably forgetting a lot of stuff that made me think he was innocent.

BlodwynPig

Gut instinct says he's completely innocent. I've got big gut.

thugler

Her naming and pointing the finger at other suspects is an essential part of building a case for a retrial. It's about proving that the authorities failed to investigate effectively. Everything that she can throw at them helps her case, even if it's distasteful if she turns out to be wrong even partly. That's just the way the system works, she has to have an alternate explanation for things.