Therapy and why is it so expensive

[Pingers]

Smail doesn't say either of those things, but he does make a good point that by locating one's distress solely inside oneself, which a lot of therapy does, it can lead people to believe that their distress is somehow their fault, which it isn't. It really is worth reading his stuff to get his full argument, it is at odds which much of mainstream psychotherapy but also very powerful

[Sebastian Cobb]

Yes of course a lot of problems can be traced to wider structural issues but deciding that you'll feel better once the whole of society has drastically changed just doesn't cut it for me. If anything it compounds the sense of powerlessness that feeds into despair. Also I dont believe all issues can be explained in that way, for example overwhelming loss, grief and guilt in the realm of personal relationships. Just off the top of my head.

I'm not sure dispair is entirely unnatural emotion given the current state of things.

I never suggested that society was wholly to blame, but I certainly think it plays a massive part in a miryad of environmental factors that can cause and/or exacerbate negative mental health.

[mrpupkin]

^I agree with that but you still have to find a way to exist in the society you live in day-to-day and sometimes therapy can help people do that, I think. It could even help some people realise that society plays a part in their unhappiness or is even mostly responsible for it, people who who might not otherwise consider that line of thinking.

[Pingers]

Absolutely agree. It is good if therapy can involve an amount of solidarity and focus on material life as well as the psyche. Our psychology is attached to our environment, so it makes sense for psychological therapy to acknowledge this.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Dangerous road though innit? When does it stop being therapy and turn into a Huxleyesque indoctrination session telling you to embrace the futility of it all and be happy with your lot?

[manticore]

David Smail was really good on this. He argued that most peoples' distress was the result of distant political forces way beyond their individual control but that 20th century psychotherapy had, in an act of futility, located the responsibility for reducing or removing our distress within ourselves, sowing the idea that if only we could learn to think differently then we could resolve our problems. He was particularly scathing about CBT, describing it as a fancy way of telling people to pull themselves together. As a socialist, his view was that the root cause of most human distress was material: poor housing, unemployment, lack of control over work, poverty, war and so on, and that while there is validity in psychotherapy (he was a clinical psychologist himself) it was essential to recognise that people could only exert a limited amount of individual psychological control over their situation. To effect any significant change, it is necessary for people to act with others, through trade unions, protest movements, revolutions, to alter their material realities.

His book Power, Interest and Psychology gives the core of this idea. There used to be a lot of it on his website but it looks like that might have been taken down since he died, which is a shame.

I would say that good psychotherapy challenges your perceptions of yourself and encourages you to see the ways you're avoiding looking at the real sources of your pain that are not simply the result of immediate causes like material circumstances. If you can do that, you may feel stronger to confront those circumstances. Childhood experiences and the way you deal with them psychically can mess up the way you react to things in your adult life.

I don't think there's anything inherent in serious psychodynamic psychotherapy that would lead to adjustment to a bad reality. In my experience it encourages you to better deal with it by allowing you to confront it in ways that aren't self-defeating, like lapsing into self-pity or indulging irrational feelings of envy. It also challenges the way you may be using other people and treating them as objects, as you treat yourself as an object.

The world messes you up in a multitude of ways and it makes you conspire in your own messed-up ness. If therapy helps you understand that, I think that's a good thing.

[Ferris]

So the pint's on him?

Not in my experience

[easytarget]

[tag]Andy Cairns laughs all the way to the bank[/tag]

_badKarma_{follows you around}

[massive bereavement]

Dangerous road though innit? When does it stop being therapy and turn into a Huxleyesque indoctrination session telling you to embrace the futility of it all and be happy with your lot?

Yeah, CBT in particular feels like parents or religion telling you all to be good children and only think good thoughts. The best therapy is a genuine relationship in which you bring out your deepest darkest feelings through sex or crying like a baby (if you can manage both at the same time you've probably made it. Those grown ups in nappies must be on to something).

[DoesNotFollow]

There are lots of interesting comments in this thread but I don't really have the time to quote specific parts. I am studying for a master's in Dramatherapy which was completely new to me in April when I stumbled across it. The reason that it has attracted me is that when I used to teach drama to children and we'd write and put on productions I could see the benefit it had on some of the more vulnerable ones in terms of confidence and of exploring issues in a safe space. I have experienced some pretty breakthrough stuff with this form of therapy myself so I am convinced it works and my goal is to bring it into some schools and work with children. I mention this for two reasons. Firstly, because it is not very well known and will is perhaps lumped in with "hippy dippy" stuff as mentioned above but I would strongly argue against that. Of course I would, otherwise I'd be wasting my fucking time.

This is really interesting as I've recently begun the third year of my Fine Art degree. This was after a year out in which, among doing lots of artwork for myself and volunteering, I undertook some really helpful talking therapy sessions provided by the NHS.
Anyway, yesterday we had our first group critique and I noticed three of the students in my group of seven were confronting traumatic personal experiences in their artwork. None of them really wanted to suggest it was therapeutic - maybe because that was somewhat frowned upon. The tutor's attitude seemed to be that if you want to work through personal issues via artwork then you can do that in your own time but shouldn't be in university.

In my previous years of study what I mostly did was work through my own anxieties and past experiences in my projects (making some kick-ass art to boot) and there is still a 'mindfulness' focus in what I'm doing now, with my current project relating to the wildlife conservation volunteering I do. Anyway my point is that for some people artistic expression and creativity, as well as providing relief and escapism, can act as a tool for self-understanding.

If art has a function, I think it can be as much about communicating with oneself to learn and grow as it is about communicating an idea or concept to others. If I can imagine pursuing an arts-based profession it would be something like art therapy.

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Just remembered that 'get some therapy' was one of Radio One DJ Steve Wright's catchphrases.  He must have been talking to himself, what with his schizophrenic obsession with fantasy alter-egos in the form of his show's characters.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Just remembered that 'get some therapy' was one of Radio One DJ Steve Wright's catchphrases.  He must have been talking to himself, what with his schizophrenic obsession with fantasy alter-egos in the form of his show's characters.

Probably just too pissed to remember who's who.

[Queneau]

During the second session with my therapist, when discussing my issues with women, she asked why I had chosen a female therapist. The real reason is that this therapy is a requirement of my master's and she was the cheapest in the area. However, I said something like, "I probably wouldn't have come to the second session had I not been attracted to you."  I'm not really sure why I said that - whether I am testing the boundaries or not.  I'm clearly exploring my issues with women but I'm not sure how true that statement it.  I think it isn't true because, you know, money.  It would have probably been more accurate to have said, "I was relieved to find I was attracted to you."  We are then in some weird zone where I want to fuck my therapist.  Okay, potentially not good.  Since that session we have met four more times and she  has revealed more personal things which seem to push us into a strange relationship.  Admittedly, it's an odd set up anyway because she is a practising dramatherapist and I am a trainee.  The dynamic is just really interesting to me particularly because I've been reading a lot about the working alliance between therapist and client and boundaries etc.  I'm torn between wanting to kiss her softly on the lips and having hardcore super sex with her on the STOCKSUND.  Currently, I just sit there with an erection.

All of the above is true apart from the erection bit.  The name of the sofa has been changed to protect its identity.

[Twit 2]

I highly recommend a thorough reading of Marcus Aurelius's Meditations (the Oxford Classics edition is excellent). It may not be enough on its own to replace therapy, but it would certainly go a long way. The principles of good therapy and those of stoic philosophy are not so different.

[Queneau]

I highly recommend a thorough reading of Marcus Aurelius's Meditations (the Oxford Classics edition is excellent). It may not be enough on its own to replace therapy, but it would certainly go a long way. The principles of good therapy and those of stoic philosophy are not so different.

Flicked through a copy yesterday. Stoic philosophy is heavily on my radar at the moment. I'll give it a go. Cheers for the recommendation.

[Replies From View]

By and large, therapy isn't supposed to get you out of your rut.  It's a process, and it is a process that makes therapists money, so they have no incentive to do anything other than keep you coming back.

Might sound harsh, but pretty hard to argue with too.

[Queneau]

By and large, therapy isn't supposed to get you out of your rut.  It's a process, and it is a process that makes therapists money, so they have no incentive to do anything other than keep you coming back.

Might sound harsh, but pretty hard to argue with too.

Not sure anyone is arguing that. Unless that's an argument you are having with yourself.

On Aurelius's Meditations, this looks like a good place to read it: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Thoughts_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Aurelius_Antoninus

Has anyone tried LibriVox audiobooks before? They have a version of it here: https://librivox.org/search?title=The+Meditations&author=AURELIUS&reader=&keywords=&genre_id=0&status=all&project_type=either&recorded_language=&sort_order=catalog_date&search_page=1&search_form=advanced

[Sebastian Cobb]

By and large, therapy isn't supposed to get you out of your rut.  It's a process, and it is a process that makes therapists money, so they have no incentive to do anything other than keep you coming back.

Might sound harsh, but pretty hard to argue with too.

I think that might depend on whether it's a massively lucrative private industry or not. There's a fairly common consensus that therapy might be more beneficial to a lot of people who go to the doctor with mental issues and get papped off with some ssri's to make them go away.

[Replies From View]

I think that might depend on whether it's a massively lucrative private industry or not. There's a fairly common consensus that therapy might be more beneficial to a lot of people who go to the doctor with mental issues and get papped off with some ssri's to make them go away.

About six or seven years ago I asked my GP for therapy; got some cognitive behaviour therapy sessions and they were deeply rubbish.  The therapist just kept pulling out worksheets for me to fill out, and as an introduction to each sheet she just read the text at the top of each sheet.  After a couple of sessions I just stopped going; I was in a shitty state so couldn't even be arsed to say that I was stopping or explain why I was stopping, which was probably bad of me.

[Queneau]

About six or seven years ago I asked my GP for therapy; got some cognitive behaviour therapy sessions and they were deeply rubbish.  The therapist just kept pulling out worksheets for me to fill out, and as an introduction to each sheet she just read the text at the top of each sheet.  After a couple of sessions I just stopped going; I was in a shitty state so couldn't even be arsed to say that I was stopping or explain why I was stopping, which was probably bad of me.

I think worksheets are a shit idea. I have never responded well to CBT. I totally agree on the point of therapy being a process. It seems that CBT is the first port of call via the NHS route. It will work for some but one size doesn't fit all - it is, obviously, a lot more complex than that.

[Kishi the Bad Lampshade]

That sounds like it could be a good read, that.

It were me. The article was in the latest print edition of Current Affairs, it isn't on their website yet but will be in the next couple of weeks and I'll try and remember to link to it if I can.

Timely thread for me, as I'm currently living in the Netherlands and am in the process of being referred to a psychologist. Basic health insurance (100-150 euros per month) is supposed to cover a lot of mental health care, although it's hard to tell exactly what it covers when you're relying on Google translate - there are some confusing parts like "mental disorder" being in both the 'covered' and 'not covered' parts of my policy. As far as I can tell, my insurance covers short- and medium-term care, hospital stays and diagnosed conditions, but not therapy for more vague reasons like burnout, relationship problems, general not-being-good-at-dealing-with-life - basically anything a person goes to therapy for in a TV show set in LA. I'm not exactly certain though. Also I still have to pay the first 385 euros out of pocket. The process is a little confusing, I can't imagine how much worse it would be in the US.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

By and large, therapy isn't supposed to get you out of your rut.  It's a process, and it is a process that makes therapists money, so they have no incentive to do anything other than keep you coming back.

Might sound harsh, but pretty hard to argue with too.

Doesn't seem particularly hard to argue with. There are surely lots of bad therapists, but also lots of ethical therapists who went into the field to help people.

Do you think doctors are also scamming everyone to keep them sick?

[Replies From View]

Do you think doctors are also scamming everyone to keep them sick?

Nope.

[manticore]

Since that session we have met four more times and she  has revealed more personal things which seem to push us into a strange relationship.  Admittedly, it's an odd set up anyway because she is a practising dramatherapist and I am a trainee.  The dynamic is just really interesting to me particularly because I've been reading a lot about the working alliance between therapist and client and boundaries etc.

Have you gained any impression of her attitude to the matter of professional distance? I think therapy is messed up without it and it sounds as if it might be a bit lacking there.

[Queneau]

Have you gained any impression of her attitude to the matter of professional distance? I think therapy is messed up without it and it sounds as if it might be a bit lacking there.

That's what makes it so sexy! Do keep up.

But, it is strange. Who knows. Perhaps it will carry on this way until she is eventually struck off? She did preface something last time with, "I'm taking off my therapist hat for a second..." That was confusing as fuck and not just because she wasn't wearing a hat.

[manticore]

That's what makes it so sexy! Do keep up.

But, it is strange. Who knows. Perhaps it will carry on this way until she is eventually struck off? She did preface something last time with, "I'm taking off my therapist hat for a second..." That was confusing as fuck and not just because she wasn't wearing a hat.

Maybe she's experimenting with her countertransference techniques! Therapists get up to so many dodgy things, as Jeffrey Masson documented, though he's pretty bats himself and some of his criticisms of Freud are pretty stupid.

[Queneau]

Jeffrey Masson

Will be checking this guy out, thanks. As for Freud, I've found his writings on humour really interesting.

[Kishi the Bad Lampshade]

It were me. The article was in the latest print edition of Current Affairs, it isn't on their website yet but will be in the next couple of weeks and I'll try and remember to link to it if I can.

ta-da

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/11/self-care-wont-save-us/

[steve98]

You're basically renting a private doctor for an hour, of course it's expensive.

You could rent a vet for £42. That's what I paid last time (And it will be the last fucking time). £42 quid for 2 minutes? To squeeze a spot on the cat's jaw? Unreal. If I'd have known it was gonna be so expensive, I'd have got my moneys worth, with chat. You should check it out. Or try one of those cat cafes?

[MuteBanana]

Did a couple of hypnotherapy sessions at £45 a go. She was pushing me to agree to a whole series of sessions during the first meeting which really fucked me off. I told her I wanted to see how I responded, also worried about my precarious financial situation and how it can suddenly change. She was having none of it. Insisted that to get the most out of it I had to come back. Went back for one more but it just wasn't doing anything for me.

It must work for many people otherwise there'd be no demand for it. Shame you can't go to a semi pro therapist. 15 minute fast service. Ten quid. Just to get a feel for it before you commit to a full session with someone else.