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4K Telly Discussion

Started by The Boston Crab, October 31, 2018, 10:40:22 PM

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I'm looking for impressions of 4K HDR sets from anyone who has one because I've devoured all the review sites and come to the conclusion that it's a bit like when I was massively into audio and headphones and headphone amps and DACs and stuff and it's easy to lose all perspective and ruin your enjoyment with previously imperceptible flaws through too much experience where the layman would just think holy fucking shit this sounds amazing.


For context, I will only be using it for gaming  probably 80% Switch and 20% One X/PS4 Pro. I will never watch a film or telly on it.


Essentially, if money were no object I'd be going for an LG OLED because they supposedly offer the best quality picture for standard dynamic range, they upscale 1080p really well, are superb in dark room conditions, do excellent HDR detail and have amazing response times for gaming. Currently, the B8 is about £1500, which is realistically £500 more than I want to spend. If it is fucking amazing though, I would be inclined to save for a bit longer and hold out.


My next choice down is the Sony XF90 which sounds superb but it's not OLED. This is the one I'm most watching and waiting for a sale because it just might dip below a grand with Black Friday  Otherwise, I'll have to concede it's out of my budget with a baby planned for some time next year. And is it even that good?


And then there's my most likely purchase, the Samsung NU8000. Now, obviously it's not going to be as good as the above but as a pure gaming telly, rtings puts it only marginally behind the above two but with very very similar scores. It loses out in every other area but for gaming, it's well recognised and highly rated on the review sites.


This brings me back to my initial point. Where reviews pick it up for some problematic local dimming and slightly timid HDR, will that stuff even register for me as someone with very little experience of even mid-tier tellies? Has anyone got one or tried it? I could probably afford something more expensive but I can't justify it to either my wife or myself given our priorities so unless either of the above pop up for less than a grand, this will be the one - but not if it's just a bit shit  so how much can you trust reviews? I should also say I saw it running in John Lewis and it was crisp, colourful and bright but it was also next to a top of the range QLED which was dazzling and showed how much more I could get (for quite a bit more money), so would I constantly feel a bit disappointed with something I actually spent a lot of hard-earned cash on?


Any impressions or chat will help, ladies and gents. Thanks.


Sebastian Cobb

So 80% of the time you'll be using it on a console that only outputs 1080p?

Mister Six

Aye, seems like a waste of money to use it for Switch. I won't bother with 4K until it's basically as commonly used as HD is today - presumably by the time the PS6 comes around.

QDRPHNC

I just bought a mid-tier 4k Samsung. RDR2 is proper astounding, The patched version of The Division is not mind blowing, but a noticeable bump in detail and clarity from the 1080p version. I've only got 2 UHD Blu-rays, Bram Stokers Dracula and Leon. Again, not a huge leap over HD, but a noticeable upgrade, and as close to watching actual film as I've ever seen on a home TV. Native 4k video, even off YouTube, is amazingly rich and crisp.

I suppose another variable is that my wife has given me the go-ahead to get one this Black Friday or in the January sales. By this time next year, if all goes to plan, we'll have a baby on the way and there's no chance it'll be reasonable to drop the same money on a television when it should go on nappies and the like. This is my TV for next gen, quite frankly. I've waited for over a year and now's the time or I'll have to just give it up.

As for the Switch, yeah, that's another reason why the LG is so tempting because it's not just the HDR, etc. It's the basic stuff like contrast and colour and perfect blacks. The Switch is supposed to look spectacular on that screen. Likewise, I'm getting a One X to see me through to the next gen and I want to get the benefits of 4K if I'm paying for that console.

Thanks, Q. Can I ask what you got? I do suspect that I could get something excellent for a lot less than I've budgeted if I ignore the reviews.

mobias

For gaming it seems to be almost universally recognised that Samsung do the best bang for you buck. The KS series seems to be the most popular. I got the KS7500, which is pretty much the bottom of the range 'decent' Samsung TV and its amazing. My budget was a grand and I really couldn't go above that. The KS series has a dedicated gaming mode for low input lag. Also, because the KS series is so popular among gamers there's tons of online guides to getting it set up perfectly for gaming.

MY KS7500 cost £999 back in 2017. I see you can now pick one up for £800. Thats a great price for a 55" 4k HDR TV.

Getting a 4K TV now is a good investment since all future gaming consoles will output 4K as standard.

4K gaming really is incredible. People downplay it saying you have to sit close to you TV to notice it and stuff like that. Its eye popingly beautiful now matter where you sit as far as I can tell.

HDR in gaming is a bit more of a mixed bag. There's too many variables from how good your TV is too what sort of HDR has been implemented in the game at source. Witcher 3 looked better before they gave it HDR and RDR2 looks better with HDR turned off.

biggytitbo

I hate buying a TV, the mind boggling array of things you have to consider, and the various trade offs do my head in.


Aren't 4k tvs bad for 1080p gaming, in that the upscaling introduces way more lag? I'm not likely to be playing games in 4k for a good few years so its probably not worth it if thats the case.

AsparagusTrevor

I recently got a 2017 Philips OLED (which uses a LG panel), an upgrade from an old mid-range LG LCD 3DTV I had for about 7 years. I'm always sensitive to flaws and there were many things about that TV which bothered me, crap contrast, noticeable edge lighting etc, so I was happy when my wife gave the OK to upgrade. It wasn't cheap but it was greatly reduced from its RRP because the 2018 screens were imminent.

The perfect blacks of OLED improve any content, whether its SD, HD or 4K. The only 4K and HDR content I play through it is Ps4 Pro (I know it's not always true 4K but near enough) and the odd downloaded film and it looks stunning. Pretty low lag too, and OLEDs don't have ghosting or trails which can affect LED TVs.

The only thing I worry about is burn-in but this is apparently very uncommon for normal usage. I notice some slight image retention if I leave something of high-contrast up on screen (e.g. a game menu) while I go and make a cuppa or something but it soon fades. Many people complain about the low brightness of OLED TVs but I have not had any issues with this, in fact if it got much brighter it's probably burn my retinas out.

I reckon last years models will be reduced greatly in the Black Friday sales to get rid of stock.

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 01, 2018, 09:14:36 AMI hate buying a TV, the mind boggling array of things you have to consider, and the various trade offs do my head in.

Aren't 4k tvs bad for 1080p gaming, in that the upscaling introduces way more lag? I'm not likely to be playing games in 4k for a good few years so its probably not worth it if thats the case.
Yeah, it's a minefield. While there are only two general types of 4K TV - OLED and LCD, you then get brands like Samsung confusing things with their QLED which is just LCD with fancy name but marketed like it's a different technology. Plus there's HDR, which still hasn't got an agreed standard, and the fact some brands bend the truth about whether their screens are proper HDR or not.

OLEDs TVs are generally the same level despite the brand since it's only LG who manufactures OLED panels, so it ends up being down to the brand's software and image processing. OLED TVs are always expensive, there aren't any low-end OLED as the technology doesn't really scale down.

LCDs are more complicated. They have to illuminate their screens with LED backlights as, unlike OLED, the pixels do not emit light themselves. So you get all different backlights, some better than others, and all affect the black-levels of the TV. 'Full-array' backlights are considered the best as these have more light 'zones' which can turn on and off as needed.

Some TVs perform better than others, lag-wise. For gaming you definitely want something below 50ms, ideally below 30ms. However, casual gamers probably won't notice a difference between 50-30 ms. Many TVs offer a Game/PC or Monitor mode which usually turn off processing to help reduce lag.

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 01, 2018, 09:14:36 AM
Aren't 4k tvs bad for 1080p gaming, in that the upscaling introduces way more lag? I'm not likely to be playing games in 4k for a good few years so its probably not worth it if thats the case.

Both the LG OLEDs and the Samsung NU8000 are shit hot with input lag, even with upscaled content, which is why the Samsung is often rated as one of the top five pure gaming TVs. Likewise, they're both supposed to be excellent at upscaling HD to 4K, which is another essential for me with the Switch.

biggytitbo

If I get a 4k jobby i'll probably stick with sony as android tv comes with built in chromecast and you get youtube, amazon prime, netflix and kodi (and indeed any android app in theory) without any extra box, which is a great boon. You can also control a ps4 with the tv remote. I'm sure other TV's can do most of that but I think only the sonys do all of it. But like I said about tradeoffs, it seems they're not as good with gaming.

QDRPHNC

Quote from: The Boston Crab on November 01, 2018, 05:36:18 AM
Thanks, Q. Can I ask what you got? I do suspect that I could get something excellent for a lot less than I've budgeted if I ignore the reviews.

I got this one.

It's not as fancy as OLED, but it has the Dynamic Crystal Color instead of the Pur Color on the cheapest Samsung models. For the money, I'm very happy with it.

wooders1978

I just upgraded to a Samsung 65 incher and those that reckon PS4 isn't different to my old plasma at 1080p are mental - the upscaling is very noticeable

Dex Sawash

Sony menus and remote controls can fuck right off

AsparagusTrevor

But then how would you operate the telly?

Dex Sawash


biggytitbo

Quote from: AsparagusTrevor on November 02, 2018, 09:28:39 AM
But then how would you operate the telly?


You talk to your telly these days GRANDAD. (And I don't mean shouting cunt at Question Time)

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Mister Six on November 01, 2018, 03:59:39 AM
Aye, seems like a waste of money to use it for Switch. I won't bother with 4K until it's basically as commonly used as HD is today - presumably by the time the PS6 comes around.

This is why I've not been interested. Loads of content is just (non-realtime, so they can do a much better job) upscaled 2k and the rest is Hollywood superhero wank that looks like someone tipped some lego on the floor to begin with.

I also feel that HD/2k is getting forced into obsolescence, bluray looks great, but streaming (aside from amazon film scans) isn't close to it, and HD TV looks even shitter still because they're cramming as many channels into the multiplexes as they can.

If you are looking for a smart TV I'd advise ignoring the smart features (don't bother even connecting it) and getting a fire stick. In the UK freeview play is becoming standardised, but most apps are just containerised html5. Samsung have their own os, and if they're anything like their phones, which gym my experience they are, they'll drop support on models as soon as they can rendering the 'smart' part useless.

Benevolent Despot

I've had the Samsung NU8000 for a few months. It's really good for gaming. Most of the reviews don't mention the best part which is "game motion plus" mode, which is frame interpolation (soap opera effect) but with hardly any extra lag. I think it's 25ms compared to 20ms without. This really works on games. I don't use the mode for video content because it totally changes the look of video and makes it artificial, but on games it basically doubles the apparent frame rate. It eliminates painful stutter for the 30fps or lower content and acts to deblur any motion in 60fps games. With it enabled there's a few artifacts around static elements on a moving background, but for me they're minor enough that the benefits hugely outweigh them.

I don't use HDR on it. I've turned it off. HDR is a bit of a scam just now. It only really works on OLED or LED sets that get extremely bright, such as the top Samsung (Q9FN). Even then there's plenty of examples of it making picture quality worse rather than better. The local dimming on it is kind of basic and pointless. You don't notice it most of the time. I set it to low because, for example, if there's a totally black screen apart from one small lit icon (like a loading screen) then it will light up a vertical strip where the icon is, making the screen look grey around it where it should be black (this is known as clouding). On low setting this can only be seen in a dark room in this specific circumstance.

I researched the other tellys you mentioned. The Sony sounded pretty good, it has better contrast because it's got more light zones for more accurate dimming, but you'll still get areas of clouding, they'll just be smaller. It doesn't have the game motion mode and the input lag is higher (remember to check input lag for both 1080p and 4k, they can be different).

OLED has great contrast in a dark room but the burn-in is a major red-flag if you're going to keep it for years. The temporary image retention will turn permanent if repeated. For games with static huds it's a no-no. Despite being mentioned in many reviews it still isn't treated as being as important as it should be. There's a video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_8iDnGaKhs discussing the bad things about OLED that review sites don't tell you. It's not the super-technology it's made out to be. There's loads of reviews of other TVs on that channel as well.

The only difference with the higher-up Samsing QLEDs is colour, brightness and more dimming zones - the feature-set is the same as the NU8000. Bear in mind that the showroom TVs are calibrated to exaggerate colours so may not be as different as they seem.

mobias

Quote from: Benevolent Despot on November 03, 2018, 05:51:03 PM
I've had the Samsung NU8000 for a few months. It's really good for gaming. Most of the reviews don't mention the best part which is "game motion plus" mode, which is frame interpolation (soap opera effect) but with hardly any extra lag. I think it's 25ms compared to 20ms without. This really works on games. I don't use the mode for video content because it totally changes the look of video and makes it artificial, but on games it basically doubles the apparent frame rate. It eliminates painful stutter for the 30fps or lower content and acts to deblur any motion in 60fps games. With it enabled there's a few artifacts around static elements on a moving background, but for me they're minor enough that the benefits hugely outweigh them.



Hmm I've got that feature on my Samsung too but the artefacts you get round objects are too much of a distraction for me. I've got a 2017 KS7500 so maybe its just worse on that model of TV. Its an interesting feature though. I tried it with RDR2 and it does give a pretty good glimpse at what playing the game at 60fps would look like.

Benevolent Despot

Quote from: mobias on November 03, 2018, 06:02:09 PM
Hmm I've got that feature on my Samsung too but the artefacts you get round objects are too much of a distraction for me. I've got a 2017 KS7500 so maybe its just worse on that model of TV. Its an interesting feature though. I tried it with RDR2 and it does give a pretty good glimpse at what playing the game at 60fps would look like.

Yeah I think this year's TVs have a new version of it that's specifically made for gaming. There's some videos on Youtube giving examples of a game with and without it.

Cheers, BD. That's very helpful and reassuring. Earlier today, I was actually watching a review of the NU8000 by the guy whose vid you linked and the motion plus stuff was pretty impressive, a visible difference to the likes of God of War and quite spectacular with GTAV. I'd love to see how/if it gives the likes of BotW a little lift, never mind stuff like Xenoblade Chronicles 2 or...Bloodborne! Damn, just remembered that. Wow.

Unless there's a massive drop on a QLED on BF, I'm definitely going for the NU8000 now.

Also interesting what you say about OLED because the more reading I've done, the more dubious I've become. It seems that it's an inevitable result of different pixels declining at different times based on use. Any time you have a static HUD element illuminated, you're essentially shortening the lifespan of those pixels leading to an inconsistent picture down the line. I will only be using this for gaming so it's inevitably going to take a hit unless I'm constantly managing the HUD and so on, which is a pretty joyless experience. Even if I'm not getting the black levels with the LED set, it's never going to be something I will need to worry about.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Benevolent Despot on November 03, 2018, 05:51:03 PM
I've had the Samsung NU8000 for a few months. It's really good for gaming. Most of the reviews don't mention the best part which is "game motion plus" mode, which is frame interpolation (soap opera effect) but with hardly any extra lag. I think it's 25ms compared to 20ms without. This really works on games. I don't use the mode for video content because it totally changes the look of video and makes it artificial, but on games it basically doubles the apparent frame rate. It eliminates painful stutter for the 30fps or lower content and acts to deblur any motion in 60fps games. With it enabled there's a few artifacts around static elements on a moving background, but for me they're minor enough that the benefits hugely outweigh them.
This sounds too good to be true, or are you talking about freesync? I think some Samsung tvs support that in some form.

AsparagusTrevor

Quote from: Benevolent Despot on November 03, 2018, 05:51:03 PMOLED has great contrast in a dark room but the burn-in is a major red-flag if you're going to keep it for years. The temporary image retention will turn permanent if repeated. For games with static huds it's a no-no. Despite being mentioned in many reviews it still isn't treated as being as important as it should be. There's a video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_8iDnGaKhs discussing the bad things about OLED that review sites don't tell you. It's not the super-technology it's made out to be. There's loads of reviews of other TVs on that channel as well.

Looking back on his other videos that guy seems like a bit of a tinfoil-hat nutcase, talking about conspiracies and lies and media bias with OTT superlatives and clickbait titles with exclamation mark abuse!!! He seems to have a personal beef with OLED, like an OLED TV killed his parents or something. He even gets aggressive with people who question him.

One video (one of many filmed on his phone) he shows a vertical banding issue where there is a clear line down the screen using the character select screen of Star Wars Battlefront 2 to illustrate. When he chooses Chewbacca his bow covers the line - it's a glitch in the background texture of the game.

Sure there may be issues with OLED (as there are with all technologies) but his channel is definitely not the one to hold up as proof.

batwings

I would get a LCD if you are going to use it mostly for gaming. The OLEDs have limited HDR brightness compared to LCDs, so you have less of a 'pop', which is probably more of an issue with games than movies, and the burn-in problem is more likely to occur with games. OLEDs are great for movies, though. I have a LG B7 OLED (last year's model) and it has a stunning picture, especially if you feed it a 4K HDR signal from Netflix or a UHD player.

Benevolent Despot

#24
Quote from: The Boston Crab on November 03, 2018, 07:30:06 PM
Cheers, BD. That's very helpful and reassuring. Earlier today, I was actually watching a review of the NU8000 by the guy whose vid you linked and the motion plus stuff was pretty impressive, a visible difference to the likes of God of War and quite spectacular with GTAV. I'd love to see how/if it gives the likes of BotW a little lift, never mind stuff like Xenoblade Chronicles 2 or...Bloodborne! Damn, just remembered that. Wow.

Yeah, it is better than I expected. I think the biggest difference is in 30fps driving games or anything where you have primarily forward motion, like the GTA V example. Forza Horizon 3 running on it looks amazing, and there aren't really any artefacts when you're moving forward. The worst artefacts you'll see is around gun reticles when you're doing fast turning or panning in a first person shooter, but I don't mind it.

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 03, 2018, 07:46:38 PM
This sounds too good to be true, or are you talking about freesync? I think some Samsung tvs support that in some form.

Gotta see it to believe it. No, the TV also has freesync but that's seperate. You can't have it and game motion plus enabled at the same time. Freesync is only designed to smooth out games that have an inconsistent frame rate that wavers between say 45fps and 60fps, so that frames at 45fps are displayed on the screen for 1/45th of a second rather than having two of the same frame display at 1/60th of second as per a normal TV or monitor. It changes the refresh rate of the TV to match the frame rate of the game. I think it's more for professional gamers who don't want a frame-hiccup to disrupt their perfect gaming. There's an explantation video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHtXx1JOUpo - I think the technology is quite limited in this TV though. I don't use it anyway as I prefer the butteriness of the game motion plus. Freesync is supported only on Xbox One S & X and AMD GPU PCs.

Quote from: AsparagusTrevor on November 03, 2018, 08:44:35 PM
Looking back on his other videos that guy seems like a bit of a tinfoil-hat nutcase, talking about conspiracies and lies and media bias with OTT superlatives and clickbait titles with exclamation mark abuse!!! He seems to have a personal beef with OLED, like an OLED TV killed his parents or something. He even gets aggressive with people who question him.

One video (one of many filmed on his phone) he shows a vertical banding issue where there is a clear line down the screen using the character select screen of Star Wars Battlefront 2 to illustrate. When he chooses Chewbacca his bow covers the line - it's a glitch in the background texture of the game.

Sure there may be issues with OLED (as there are with all technologies) but his channel is definitely not the one to hold up as proof.

Yeah he has trashy titles. I watched a lot of his videos doing research and he seems to have good explanations and examples, I guess you'll have to judge him for yourself. I've seen vertical stripes on OLED in showroom examples. I guess with that kind of thing it's a manufacturing defect and could be sent back under warranty. The burn-in isn't covered by warranty though.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: AsparagusTrevor on November 03, 2018, 08:44:35 PM
Looking back on his other videos that guy seems like a bit of a tinfoil-hat nutcase, talking about conspiracies and lies and media bias with OTT superlatives and clickbait titles with exclamation mark abuse!!! He seems to have a personal beef with OLED, like an OLED TV killed his parents or something. He even gets aggressive with people who question him.

One video (one of many filmed on his phone) he shows a vertical banding issue where there is a clear line down the screen using the character select screen of Star Wars Battlefront 2 to illustrate. When he chooses Chewbacca his bow covers the line - it's a glitch in the background texture of the game.

Sure there may be issues with OLED (as there are with all technologies) but his channel is definitely not the one to hold up as proof.

Whilst that guy and his vids are a bit dubious, image retention on OLEDs IS a concern.  Some models are more susceptible than others, but it's a concern all the same and a problem that, in comparison with OLEDs, rarely occurs in LCDs and QLEDs.  But they both come with their own different negatives in comparison to OLEDs - swings and roundabouts with different trade-offs depending on what's most important to you.

Micro LED - which is on the way - is supposed to be the best of both worlds in one box with none of the problems, but I don't think there's any scheduled for release until the latter part of next year and, as is always the way, I expect the first gen sets will be prohibitively expensive (although prices should come down quicker and cheaper than OLED as they're much cheaper and easier to manufacture with a much reduced failure rate).  As it is, the only one ready for the domestic market at the moment is a 146inch Samsung 8k set.

biggytitbo

Does this 60fps gamemode thing affect the controls? The games still actually running at 30fps so the controls and response is a 30fps game, but the movement looks like its 60fps, is it a bit discombobulating?

Benevolent Despot

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 04, 2018, 05:19:30 PM
Does this 60fps gamemode thing affect the controls? The games still actually running at 30fps so the controls and response is a 30fps game, but the movement looks like its 60fps, is it a bit discombobulating?

I haven't noticed anything really. You get used to the responsiveness of whatever game you're playing. Maybe if you've got a PC plugged in with a 30fps game and are using a mouse it might feel a bit weird, I haven't tried that.

seepage

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on November 03, 2018, 03:44:13 PM
If you are looking for a smart TV I'd advise ignoring the smart features (don't bother even connecting it) and getting a fire stick.

I currently have a 'dumb' TV, BT Youview box, and a firestick. Presumably smart TVs have an EPG but do they also have a Search function? With the firestick you have to google first to see which channel the programme was on. Is there a free EPG app to put on the firestick? 

Sebastian Cobb

The fire stick can do search integration if the app supports it, netflix does for example.

Freeview Play and Youview both have a backwards epg with deeplinking so when you click a programme that has aired it should launch the app.