Corbyn 22 Now But It Won't Be For Long

[Fambo Number Mive]

I'm not sure a second referendum will solve much really. I can imagine the Leave campaign appealing to non-political people to vote Leave by claiming a second referendum is undemocratic and winning with another small majority.

The 2016 referendum cost the UK £129.1 million, the money for another £129m or so for a second referendum could be used as an excuse for further austerity.

[Buelligan]

I'm 100,000% for a second referendum, provided that someone really bright, who's thought it all through in advance, writes the questions in a non-biased clear way that allows all voters, even those disenfranchised in the last referendum, to truly express their informed opinions, their votes to be counted without dispute and a resolution to this matter arrived at, at a stroke with no rancour on any side.

[NoSleep]

Something like, "I'm not being racist, but..."

[Twed]

And no fucking buses.

[ToneLa]

I'm not sure a second referendum will solve much really. I can imagine the Leave campaign appealing to non-political people to vote Leave by claiming a second referendum is undemocratic and winning with another small majority.

The 2016 referendum cost the UK £129.1 million, the money for another £129m or so for a second referendum could be used as an excuse for further austerity.

Why did it cost so much?

[Johnny Yesno]

And no fucking buses.

However, fuck buses are acceptable.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Why did it cost so much?

The report on it is here: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/referendums-to-keep/cost-of-delivering-2016-eu-referendum-published

This figure includes:

The cost of administering the poll – including the running of over 40,000 polling stations, issuing and opening postal votes, and the counting of votes – totalling £94.5 million.
Statutory grants to the two designated lead campaigners totalling £1.2 million.
The delivery costs for the two designated lead campaigners to send a mailing to each elector or household in each referendum area across the UK, as provided for in law. This totalled almost £25.4 million.
The cost of a UK-wide public awareness campaign undertaken by the Electoral Commission to raise awareness of the poll and provide information on how to take part, totalling £6 million.

[ToneLa]

Suppose I should elaborate that was partially rhetorical as a massive fan of referendums but that idea is fucking dead in the water in Britain now...

[biggytitbo]

This is very good on the numbers behind the labout 'anti-semitism' crisis - https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1095429005354901504.html?refreshed=yes

Seems of the 200 cases reported by Hodge herself, only 20 actually related to labour party members. Essentially a massive trawling expedition has found some cases of anti-semitism, but not very many and a lot of them are nothing to do with the labour party.

[pancreas]

I have a Jewish friend who considers himself left wing—for example vehemently opposed the Iraq war. But he believes the level of antisemitism in the LP is so high that there is 'no place for him'. He thinks Jewish Voice for Labour are absolute poison and utterly unrepresentative of 'the mainstream Jewish community'—when I asked him if this meant they were 'the wrong sort of Jews' he said, 'Well, yes, yes they are'. He compared them to 'a gay evangelical organisation promoting conversion therapy amongst the gay community'. And I have been thoroughly warned to stay away from them.

This is despite me (and JVL) pointing out there are <<0.1% of real cases of AS in the LP; the fact everyone only appears to be 'in denial' about it, because almost all LP meetings consist of people talking about local issues or wrangling over procedure; the fact that many of the transgressions of Corbyn seem to be about bugger all. (He brought up the mural, for example—I pointed out Corbyn had apologised for it—then had to show him evidence from th'internet.) And of course, there's the real institutional antisemitism in the Conservative Party which supports Orban over the EU which is conveniently ignored.

Obviously I think my friend's views are absolute bollocks, but he is an intelligent guy, whom I wouldn't expect to swallow a right-wing narrative without question. So I have to ask myself why is he thinking these things. One of the JVL people came to talk in Newcastle about this, and there was some discussion of Jonathan Sacks, who had recently said something ghastly about how we're all the Hitler youth or some bollocks. Apparently Sacks also used to be quite vehemently left wing, but now goes on pro-Settler marches in East Jerusalem. I asked what had changed and she said she didn't know, that he must have come under enormous amounts of pressure from the establishment. I should have pressed the point, to understand what this pressure is and where it comes from.

But, without more information, I wonder if this has happened to my friend. Does there exists an effective establishment mechanism which demands that Jewish people renounce the left? And how does it work? Perhaps it plays on indoctrinated fear? I don't know. But for some Jewish people emotions surrounding this issue seems to have caused rationality and evidence to be left behind.

Hodge though—she's just a cunt.

[greencalx]

Did your friend recount any personal episodes of antisemitism directed at him (or witnessed directed at others) by LP members in a LP context? If so, did he report them?

[pancreas]

No. That would be evidence, of course, the need for which we have apparently dispensed.

[Kelvin]

I have a Jewish friend who considers himself left wing—for example vehemently opposed the Iraq war. But he believes the level of antisemitism in the LP is so high that there is 'no place for him'. He thinks Jewish Voice for Labour are absolute poison and utterly unrepresentative of 'the mainstream Jewish community'—when I asked him if this meant they were 'the wrong sort of Jews' he said, 'Well, yes, yes they are'. He compared them to 'a gay evangelical organisation promoting conversion therapy amongst the gay community'. And I have been thoroughly warned to stay away from them.

This is despite me (and JVL) pointing out there are <<0.1% of real cases of AS in the LP; the fact everyone only appears to be 'in denial' about it, because almost all LP meetings consist of people talking about local issues or wrangling over procedure; the fact that many of the transgressions of Corbyn seem to be about bugger all. (He brought up the mural, for example—I pointed out Corbyn had apologised for it—then had to show him evidence from th'internet.) And of course, there's the real institutional antisemitism in the Conservative Party which supports Orban over the EU which is conveniently ignored.

Obviously I think my friend's views are absolute bollocks, but he is an intelligent guy, whom I wouldn't expect to swallow a right-wing narrative without question. So I have to ask myself why is he thinking these things. One of the JVL people came to talk in Newcastle about this, and there was some discussion of Jonathan Sacks, who had recently said something ghastly about how we're all the Hitler youth or some bollocks. Apparently Sacks also used to be quite vehemently left wing, but now goes on pro-Settler marches in East Jerusalem. I asked what had changed and she said she didn't know, that he must have come under enormous amounts of pressure from the establishment. I should have pressed the point, to understand what this pressure is and where it comes from.

But, without more information, I wonder if this has happened to my friend. Does there exists an effective establishment mechanism which demands that Jewish people renounce the left? And how does it work? Perhaps it plays on indoctrinated fear? I don't know. But for some Jewish people—maybe many?—emotion seems to have left rationality and evidence behind.

Hodge though—she's just a cunt.

That last bit sounds a bit dodgy, tbh. The implication that a lack of rationality is unique to Jewish people. I know that wasn't your intent, but I thought I should point it out.

The thing is, I don't think what you're describing is unique to Jewish people. The media has just successfully sold the idea that Labour has an anti semitism problem, but the details and evidence do not get through to a significant number of people. Your friend clearly didn't know that Corbyn had apologised, for example. He just knew the headlines.

After months of hearing these stories in the background, people just start thinking, "No smoke without fire", and I imagine, if you're Jewish, this is then heightened by a life's experience of anti semitism and an overall (understandable) sensitivity to the issue.

Most people do not follow these stories in the detail we do, so the response is going to be less informed and more emotional/led by the media narrative. That's true of all political issues, and all people - not just Labour anti semitism and Jewish people. Just look at how I'll informed people still are about Brexit.

[pancreas]

You're right. I've edited it. Would appreciate you changing your quote, if you wouldn't mind.

I absolutely think you're correct. The same level of emotionality has infected the Brexit debate. People talk about Corbyn being happy to leave the EU if he can rule over the ruins, but many Remainers would be happy to stay in the EU no matter what damage is being done to our public services.

It's just that obviously antisemitism is of particular importance to Jews—of course—so it becomes far more easy to whip up anger and concern about it.

[pancreas]

After months of hearing these stories in the background, people just start thinking, "No smoke without fire", and I imagine, if you're Jewish, this is then heightened by a life's experience of anti semitism and an overall (understandable) sensitivity to the issue.

Right, but anyone who is actually in possession of evidence or reason is told they're in denial, an existential threat to Jewish life; or the wrong sort of Jews, as bad as an evangelical pray-the-gay-away. That's a far worse level of debate even than Brexit.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Where is the organisation in defending Labour though? How many reports of abuse are the Tories dealing with? How can former cabinet minister call Muslim women letterboxes and black people piccaninnies and still be in a job?

Instead of flailing around how about collecting this and launching a concerted attack?

[pancreas]

Because they don't care if they're painted as racists, since it'll probably boost their vote, whereas we care if we are painted as racists, not only because it's the opposite of what we are but also because it's likely to suppress our vote.

The LP *could* probably ridicule the AS arguments, declare war on the Board of Deputies and Jewish Chronicle and so on. We've lost the Jewish vote anyway, for at least a generation, as far as I can understand. But the LP doesn't do this—it takes the issues seriously, because it's the right thing to do, even if it's hopeless.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yes that's fine, I agree that Corbyn and McDonnell had to either fight fire with fire or absolutely own the issue and the reform and take a longer term view in order to transform public perceptions. Choosing the latter is noble and as usual they choose a hard, thankless road.

But the fact remains that the anti-Semitism stuff will disappear if the establishment get their patsy centrist Labour leader.

This was all about anti-Corbyn and anti-socialism.

Nonetheless, luckily for Labour the public haven't totally bought into this or just don't care about Jews that much, which is seperately their own problem.

[Paul Calf]

Nonetheless, luckily for Labour the public haven't totally bought into this or just don't care about Jews that much, which is seperately their own problem.

It doesn't matter. This isn't the only line of attack.

"Corbyn is too old"

"Corbyn is a Brexiter"

"Corbyn is a wealthy hypocrite"

All targeted at specific sections of his support. The antisemitism thing doesn't work on everyone, but it's not supposed to; as someone whose party is being spoilt by socialism, if you can weaken peoples' will to defend, support and vote for a Corbyn's Labour Party, you do: one demographic at a time.

[BlodwynPig]

Its a sort of terrorism, to my mind.

[Twed]

Feels like the major Western nations are unapologetically becoming the sort of places that were plot devices in depressing futuristic fiction I read as a kid.

[Kelvin]

You're right. I've edited it. Would appreciate you changing your quote, if you wouldn't mind.

I'm really sorry, by the time I got back from work and saw this, I had missed my chance to edit it out. If I could have done, I would. 

[BlodwynPig]

Feels like the major Western nations are unapologetically becoming the sort of places that were plot devices in depression futuristic fiction I read as a kid.

You've notice that too. A complete lack of self-awareness and acknowledgement of our cultural past.

[Z]

Happy to see the Chapo guys take a decent chunk of this weeks show to tear into the Corbyn smears AOC was greeted with following her tweet on him.

[imitationleather]

I'm pleased that John McDonnell has recognised that Winston Churchill is #CANCELLED.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Labour's party political broadcast on the NHS is devastating.

Good decision to release it now and remind people what's going on underneath Brexit.

[TrenterPercenter]

With the AS can we all please just remember that if you are the type of person to not pay attention to things and get a whiff that there is "no smoke without fire" you are also the type of person that is not really paying attention anyway i.e. they will forget and make decisions based on what is said at electioneering time.

Its not the end of the Labour party, it is just disproportionately reflected in the media.  Literally had the PM orchestrate the removal of Black British people and out and out racism said by the former Home Secretary but it is just isn't reported in the same way.  That is what should be being reminded every interview about this......this is why Corbyn saying "ALL racism is abhorrent and must be challenged" is the key.

[holyzombiejesus]

I have a Jewish friend who considers himself left wing—for example vehemently opposed the Iraq war. But he believes the level of antisemitism in the LP is so high that there is 'no place for him'. He thinks Jewish Voice for Labour are absolute poison and utterly unrepresentative of 'the mainstream Jewish community'—when I asked him if this meant they were 'the wrong sort of Jews' he said, 'Well, yes, yes they are'. He compared them to 'a gay evangelical organisation promoting conversion therapy amongst the gay community'. And I have been thoroughly warned to stay away from them.

This is despite me (and JVL) pointing out there are <<0.1% of real cases of AS in the LP; the fact everyone only appears to be 'in denial' about it, because almost all LP meetings consist of people talking about local issues or wrangling over procedure; the fact that many of the transgressions of Corbyn seem to be about bugger all. (He brought up the mural, for example—I pointed out Corbyn had apologised for it—then had to show him evidence from th'internet.) And of course, there's the real institutional antisemitism in the Conservative Party which supports Orban over the EU which is conveniently ignored.

Obviously I think my friend's views are absolute bollocks, but he is an intelligent guy, whom I wouldn't expect to swallow a right-wing narrative without question. So I have to ask myself why is he thinking these things. One of the JVL people came to talk in Newcastle about this, and there was some discussion of Jonathan Sacks, who had recently said something ghastly about how we're all the Hitler youth or some bollocks. Apparently Sacks also used to be quite vehemently left wing, but now goes on pro-Settler marches in East Jerusalem. I asked what had changed and she said she didn't know, that he must have come under enormous amounts of pressure from the establishment. I should have pressed the point, to understand what this pressure is and where it comes from.

But, without more information, I wonder if this has happened to my friend. Does there exists an effective establishment mechanism which demands that Jewish people renounce the left? And how does it work? Perhaps it plays on indoctrinated fear? I don't know. But for some Jewish people emotions surrounding this issue seems to have caused rationality and evidence to be left behind.

Hodge though—she's just a cunt.

Some bald sex-pest cunt has just posted this on his twitter feed, stating "Aghast at this, from a pro-Corbyn forum.  Layers and layers of bad thinking.  He's pondered it all and concluded that there is an "establishment" which tricks otherwise intelligent Jews to "renounce" the Left.   And the final point on Hodge.  State of it." and all his centrist dickhead mates gathered round and tutted.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Well yeah, I assume at any one time he is either behaving inappropriately towards women or doing that.

[Replies From View]

Well yeah, I assume at any one time he is either behaving inappropriately towards women or doing that.

The poor guy is so bald though.  It is a shame.