Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)

[Old Gold Tooth]

I was always far more bothered about Amy and Rory at the end of Let's Kill Hitler shrugging off the realisation that they will never actually raise their daughter.

Yeah that is precisely why Series 6 has a gaping hole in it for me - Moffat is a dab hand at the clever time-twisting plots, but in doing so he sometimes has a blind spot for emotions and this is a massive one.

Weirdly, he uses one of the mini episodes to address exactly the fact that Amy Pond has lost her child and, in a broader sense, that travelling with the Doctor has made her life make no linear sense. It's a superb bit of writing and wonderfully acted by both Smith and Gillan, but it *really* should have been in the main series in my opinion. It would have made the rather cold and distant Series 6 a lot warmer and given it more heart.

I'm sure you've all seen it, but it's here (in unfortunately low-res) if you fancy a gander: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dt1sQVzhsI&t=157s

[Mister Six]

I haven't, so thank you!

[Old Gold Tooth]

I haven't, so thank you!

Oh nice one! It really is a lovely grace note and one of my favourite 11th/Amy scenes. As I recall it was exclusive content for the Series 6 DVD/Blu-ray but I would have loved this to be seen by a wider audience.

[notjosh]

Oh nice one! It really is a lovely grace note and one of my favourite 11th/Amy scenes. As I recall it was exclusive content for the Series 6 DVD/Blu-ray but I would have loved this to be seen by a wider audience.

All those mini-episodes are fantastic. It's lovely to get a sense of life in the TARDIS in between all the madness. I wish they'd done more.

[daf]

Some good points in SamyulDavis 'End of Year WHO REVIEW' : Part 1  &  Part 2

[Thomas]

Ol' Chibbers wrote a run of mini-episodes in 2012, you might remember, collectively titled Pond Life.

[Replies From View]

Ol' Chibbers wrote a run of mini-episodes in 2012, you might remember, collectively titled Pond Life.

Indeed, and he did the mini-arc for Rory's dad in series 7 too.  These things, plus his increased episode count in series 7 (2 episodes, but it was going to be 4 originally) was what first gave me alarm bells that he was angling to become showrunner.

[Mister Six]

Christ almighty, four episodes of Chibnall in S7? We dodged a bullet (or two) there.

Chibnall had a "no rewrites by the showrunner" clause didn't he? I wonder if he was still open to "polite suggestion" by RTD and Moffat though, given the gulf in quality (especially in dialogue) between his S7 offerings/42 and the latest shite.

I don't much like Dinosaurs on a Spaceship or The Power of Three, but aside from some notable "I don't understand stories or people" Chibnallisms (The Doctor murdering three sentient beings in Dinosaurs, and letting all those hospital patients die in Power) they're tons better than what we've had this year. Imagine Dinosaurs coming in the middle of this dull and plodding season!

[Replies From View]

I never really understood the "no rewrites by the showrunner" thing.  I always assumed it was out of respect rather than contractual, and whenever I read about it before Chibnall became showrunner it was something RTD had with Moffat's scripts alone.  Now it feels like all of a sudden Chibnall's scripts were never rewritten either, which I reckon might be bollocks.

[Replies From View]

Imagine Dinosaurs coming in the middle of this dull and plodding season!

Fairly sure it was a Moffat idea handed to Chibnall, that.

[VelourSpirit]

Is it actually a clause he has? I remember RTD mentioning in The Writer's Tale that Chibnall (like Moffat) was one of few writers that would write their own final draft. Seemed to treat Chibnall with similar reverence to Moffat.

[Kelvin]

Surely they were rewritten? The difference in quality between his passable scripts under other showrunners and his frequently incompetent scripts this year is pretty significant. They were never as leaden or bereft of ideas back then, even if they never really excelled in any way. Either they were heavily rewritten, or he's spread extremely thin, and rushing his work much more now.

[Alberon]

The Yaz/Graham Chronicles episode 8 - Carry on Witchfinding!

3m 11s

Yaz: We've gotta do something, Doctor.
Graham: Ah-ah, the Doc said don't interfere. (Turns to the Doctor) You said don't interfere, right?

28m 05s

Graham: There they are.
Yaz: You should take up witch-finding for a living.
Graham: Yeah. Shame I missed the training session on what to do when you've found them.

30m 42s

Yaz: That's Becka's bedroom. They're looking for her.
Graham: Revenge. That's why the undead always come back.

38m 40s

Yaz: Come on, Witchfinder. Up you get.
Graham: Go on, what happened?
Yaz: Same thing happened to all of us.
Graham: Oh, ow.
Yaz: Zapped by Becka Savage, Queen of the Morax. She's taken the King, knocked the rest of us out.

After the blank last episode this non-Chibnell written episode is again a little better on dialogue. Even if it is all exposition.

Next episode - It Takes You Away

[Kelvin]

That one DVD extra upthread is better in every concievable way than any single scene in this entire series. And not just a bit better. Like, significantly better acting, dialogue, emotion, ideas, characterisation, music. Everything.

[Mister Six]

Surely they were rewritten? The difference in quality between his passable scripts under other showrunners and his frequently incompetent scripts this year is pretty significant. They were never as leaden or bereft of ideas back then, even if they never really excelled in any way. Either they were heavily rewritten, or he's spread extremely thin, and rushing his work much more now.

I think they weren't so much rewritten in a literal sense (ie. Moffat and RTD couldn't unilaterally pounce on a script and tweak stuff before filming without the writer's sign-off) as RTD and Moffat telling Chibnall "this really needs to happen in order for this to make sense" or "this line would make the scene a bit more funny" and him incorporating that. At most, them actively rewriting it and him signing off on it (although his scripts were still leaden so perhaps not the latter).

[Phil_A]

I just get an overwhelming feeling that Chibnall really did not want the showrunner role, but accepted it out of obligation so the series wouldn't go into limbo. There's no sense of enthusiasm or creativity in his episodes this season, no sense that this is the project he's waited his whole professional career to take on, just that of a man grinding his way through a job he doesn't particularly enjoy but feels he has to do because there's no-one else to do it. Maybe he's got other projects he wants to be doing but has had to put them on hold indefinitely until his time pulling the Who sled is up, I can imagine that would make you less than enthused about the task at hand.

[Alberon]

The Yaz/Graham Chronicles - The Conclusion!

That's right! I've just pushed through the final two episodes. So here's all the direct dialogue between Yaz and Graham this series.

Episode 1 - The Series that Fell to Earth

24m 50s

(note: not looking at each other)
Graham: Why is she running at another alien?
Yaz: Don't just stand there! Come on!

Episode 2 - Spoiler, It's the TARDIS!

7m 37s

Graham: We thought you were dead.
Yaz: We thought you were dead.

15m 23s

(note: Not looking at each other)
Graham: That's an old police box.
Yaz: Yeah, like the one on Surrey(sp?) street. Only, the one in town is green.

17m 10s

Yaz: She saved Carl. She got the better of Tim Shaw and she did jump a crane. Don't know what would have happened if she hadn't been there.
Graham: Yaz is right. I mean, she is our best hope. Or only option depending on your politics.
(note: This is mainly an exchange between Graham and Ryan)

Episode 3 - Racist Time Fonz Happy Hour

33m 00s

Graham: James Blake is taking the day off.
Yaz: What? But he can't!
Graham: That's what I said. Strangely, he didn't listen.

Episode 4 - Apathy in the UK

4m 55s

Yaz: Graham?
Graham: I think I'll nip home first, Yaz. Maybe join you later if that's all right.

Episode 5 - The Bland Conundrum

18m 45s

Yaz: (on hearing the P'Ting only eats non-organic material) Well, least that's something.
Graham: Is it? Really? I mean it won't eat us, but it will eat the ship we're on.

Episode 6 - Religious Intolerance is bad, mkay?

8m 38

Yaz: Okay. Number one, the man Umbreen is about to marry is not my Grandad.
Graham: Deffo? Totally sure?
Yaz: Yes. For starters Prem is a Hindu name and we're Muslim. He doesn't look anything like the photos. It's not him.

13m 55s

Graham: This fellow needs to be laid to rest.
Yaz: Why don't we go get the others to help, but not let on what happened.
Graham nods.


21m 40

Graham: This must be scrambling your head.
Yaz: Just a bit. Thought I knew my Nan's story. She inspired me. If this is true, if this is her life, then she lied to me.
Graham: Yeah, but maybe she just didn't want to tell you everything. You know, a woman's allowed to have secrets, even from her granddaughter. And you've got to remember, Yaz, that girl in there, she ain't your nan - yet. it's only later she'll decide how to tell it. And I honestly don't know whether any of us know the real truth of our own lives, coz we're too busy living them from the inside. So just enjoy, Yaz. Live this moment and figure it out later.
Yaz: Easy said than done.
Graham: No no, I get that, but... Look at us! The things we're doing with the doc! We're in 1947!
Yaz: With my Nan.
Graham: Yeah.
Yaz: No one will ever believe us. Especially my Nan.
Ryan: (shouting from a distance) We've lost the Doctor! Mayday! Red Alert!
Yaz: Sounds like trouble!
Graham: Must be the doc.

Episode 7 -  Not Amazon! for legal reasons.

Episode 8 - Carry on Witchfinding

3m 11s

Yaz: We've gotta do something, Doctor.
Graham: Ah-ah, the Doc said don't interfere. (Turns to the Doctor) You said don't interfere, right?

28m 05s

Graham: There they are.
Yaz: You should take up witch-finding for a living.
Graham: Yeah. Shame I missed the training session on what to do when you've found them.

30m 42s

Yaz: That's Becka's bedroom. They're looking for her.
Graham: Revenge. That's why the undead always come back.

38m 40s

Yaz: Come on, Witchfinder. Up you get.
Graham: Go on, what happened?
Yaz: Same thing happened to all of us.
Graham: Oh, ow.
Yaz: Zapped by Becka Savage, Queen of the Morax. She's taken the King, knocked the rest of us out.

Episode 9 - It Takes Your Breath Away

3m 00s

Yaz: There's a child in this house.
Graham: Or some maniac that collects kids' shoes.

13m 21s

Graham: Are we still in Norway?
Yaz: How Nordic does this look to you?
Graham: Not very.

25m 05s

Graham: I'm going to hit him.
Yaz: No, you're not. I am.

Episode 10 - The Battle of Random Keystrokes

Quite appropriate to end on another episode with nothing at all between Yaz and Graham.

So, conclusions? Four episodes have just one short exchange, and two have nothing at all. In general the ones not written by Chibnall have more dialogue, but out of all of it there is only the one extended scene between Yaz and Graham which isn't just exposition that could have just as easily been written for Character A and Character B.

In short, Chibnall hasn't a fucking clue what to do with Yaz and she just tends to end up just being there in the background completely unable to even remember her backstory most of the time.

Right, I'm off to have a marathon of Timelash, Warriors of the Deep and Time and the Rani to clear my mind of all this.

[Mister Six]

Witchfinders has gone up in my estimation, reading that. I already liked it, but while it lacked the polish and sparkle of an RTD or Moffat episode (for very fucking obvious reasons) it did do a cracking job with its dialogue and characterisation for both the regulars and the guest cast. They'd be idiots not to get Joy Wilkinson back again (though I think all of the guest writers have earned another swing of the bat for next year).

[mjwilson]

I just get an overwhelming feeling that Chibnall really did not want the showrunner role, but accepted it out of obligation so the series wouldn't go into limbo. There's no sense of enthusiasm or creativity in his episodes this season, no sense that this is the project he's waited his whole professional career to take on, just that of a man grinding his way through a job he doesn't particularly enjoy but feels he has to do because there's no-one else to do it. Maybe he's got other projects he wants to be doing but has had to put them on hold indefinitely until his time pulling the Who sled is up, I can imagine that would make you less than enthused about the task at hand.

I take the opposite view unfortunately, that this is peak Chibnall.

[Old Gold Tooth]

7m 37s

Graham: We thought you were dead.
Yaz: We thought you were dead.

That's twice now this has really made me chuckle because I can't remember the actual exchange, but in my head Yaz is just copying Graham's dialogue in a desperate bid to be heard. "They all seem to like Graham... I'll do what he's doing."

[Small Man Big Horse]

The Yaz/Graham Chronicles - The Conclusion!

Thanks for your hard if questionably insane work, it made for a great read.

[Chairman Yang]

I think it's nice that we were all able to benefit from this weird kink Alberon has! The implication that the path to better episodes is more Yaz fills me with dread, mind you.

[olliebean]

I just get an overwhelming feeling that Chibnall really did not want the showrunner role, but accepted it out of obligation so the series wouldn't go into limbo. There's no sense of enthusiasm or creativity in his episodes this season, no sense that this is the project he's waited his whole professional career to take on, just that of a man grinding his way through a job he doesn't particularly enjoy but feels he has to do because there's no-one else to do it. Maybe he's got other projects he wants to be doing but has had to put them on hold indefinitely until his time pulling the Who sled is up, I can imagine that would make you less than enthused about the task at hand.

Fuckin' 5 year plan, though. Presumably involving the fuckin' Timeless Child, and you fuckin' know that's gonna be something really lame and hacky.

[Replies From View]

the fuckin' Timeless Child

It's going to mean a child who is constantly late for everything.  They'll tease it in a few episodes of series 12 and 13 with a few comments here and there about punctuality and tardiness, and the fans will be OOOH TARDINESS HAS THE LETTERS OF TARDIS WITHIN IT but no, it'll end up being revealed in series 14 as just some late kid.

[Rev+]

I think they weren't so much rewritten in a literal sense (ie. Moffat and RTD couldn't unilaterally pounce on a script and tweak stuff before filming without the writer's sign-off) as RTD and Moffat telling Chibnall "this really needs to happen in order for this to make sense" or "this line would make the scene a bit more funny" and him incorporating that. At most, them actively rewriting it and him signing off on it (although his scripts were still leaden so perhaps not the latter).

As with RTD not re-writing Mofatt's scripts, I've always assumed that there was a dialogue going on between the showrunner and the writer that wasn't the case with all of the writers for a particular series.  Give Neil Gaiman an episode and he'll bugger off for six months and you'll get a script eventually, but RTD/Moffatt/Chibnall were probably guiding each other along the way rather than laying down the law.  Chibnall having lost the other two maybe explains why this series was so limp.

[Mister Six]

You can see the seeds of this season's fuckery in his previous efforts though. I remember watching Matt Smith's Doctor becoming firm pals with the Silurian who vivisected live humans (specifically, the dad of the sympathetic little boy) in Moffat's first season and wondering how the fuck that came about - whether it was perhaps a product of endless rewrites leading to shifting characterisation. Then I saw the fundamental failure to understand normal behaviour in this latest season and realised it was just a weird fact of Chibnall's writing. He wants two scenes to exist in his episode and if it makes no narrative or character sense, who gives a damn?

Likewise the bit where Amy and Rory apparently go back in time to wave at themselves. On a plot level it's there to show how Rory is subsequently written out of history, but in character it makes no sense. Why go back to wave at yourself on a Welsh hillside? And then I saw the contortions his plots and characters went through this season and realised he just doesn't even consider that kind of thing.

[Replies From View]

Why go back to wave at yourself on a Welsh hillside?

To be fair, I think I probably would.  It'd be a novelty to see myself from the past, so I'd go out of my way to do it if I knew it was going to happen.

Predestination has forced people to do weirder stuff than that.

[olliebean]

As with RTD not re-writing Mofatt's scripts, I've always assumed that there was a dialogue going on between the showrunner and the writer that wasn't the case with all of the writers for a particular series.  Give Neil Gaiman an episode and he'll bugger off for six months and you'll get a script eventually

That's definitely not what happened with Neil Gaiman. There was a hell of a lot of back and forth and guidance from Moffat during the writing of The Doctor's Wife - which is why it took so long to eventually make it to screen - and from what I heard Moffat essentially rewrote large chunks of the script in the end. I don't know if the same was true of his rubbish Cybermen one.

[Old Gold Tooth]

That's definitely not what happened with Neil Gaiman. There was a hell of a lot of back and forth and guidance from Moffat during the writing of The Doctor's Wife - which is why it took so long to eventually make it to screen - and from what I heard Moffat essentially rewrote large chunks of the script in the end. I don't know if the same was true of his rubbish Cybermen one.

I'm a big fan of Gaiman's work but he definitely went down in my estimation when he posted a blog (before the episode even aired) complaining about the amount of re-writing and re-submitting he had to do for Moffat/BBC on The Doctor's Wife.

There must have been a backlash because he posted a follow-up blog explaining why he wasn't taking it for granted and he was allowed to air his grievances, and I suppose it must be difficult to adjust when you're chiefly a solo writer, but get a grip mate - you're getting a chance to write official canon Doctor Who.

Also whatever the extenuating circumstances are, Nightmare in Silver is awful. Badly written dialogue, annoying characters and wildly inconsistent powers for the Cybermen (they can move so fast that time appears to stand still for the humans! But don't often utilise this very handy power. They can infect and convert you via cybermites now! But would rather stomp about and stand in formation, etc.).

[daf]

Gaiman (. . .) complaining about the amount of re-writing and re-submitting he had to do for Moffat/BBC on The Doctor's Wife.

Did he think his original version was better than what we ended up with?

I wish someone had demanded some re-writes for this series!