Author Topic: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)  (Read 33460 times)

Spoon of Ploff

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1320 on: December 05, 2018, 09:55:06 PM »
...

So odd that the reveal that 'the TARDIS is the Ghost Monument' was made minutes into that episode, rather than concealed until the end. One YouTube reviewer I watched somehow missed the early reveal, and praised the episode for keeping the TARDIS a secret - which it should have done. We didn't have any idea how long the Thirteenth Doctor would be without her TARDIS - some speculated all series - so it wouldn't necessarily have been easily guessed.

As I watched The Woman Who Fell To Earth all those weeks ago I was initially very excited by the idea that the cable monster was in fact the TARDIS undergoing some kind of regeneration. The new doctor desperately trying to prevent her mode of transport from causing serious collateral damage before it settled into its new form was an imaginative and brave move of the part of this new show runner.

But no. Can't remember the TARDIS being less a character in Nu WHO than it is now.

Thomas

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1321 on: December 05, 2018, 10:07:43 PM »
I actually thought that the earlier reveal of the Ghost Monument as the TARDIS was one of the more sensible aspects of the story.  We needed a tangible reason for the Doctor to be following that directionless list of non-threats, and knowing she was seeking the TARDIS gave her that goal.  Even when you choose to make your quest story as tedious as all fuck, it needs to be going somewhere.

It'd only take a few seconds to write a reason for the Doctor to join those characters on their quest, I'm sure.

Perhaps Art Malik promises that reaching the Ghost Monument is the only way to guarantee escape from the planet, and the Doctor - with no better plan, motivated both by her natural adventurousness and her responsibility for her unwitting new companions - joins the racers. They all get there and he says 'I didn't mean you' and vanishes, leaving the Doctor + Friends destitute (until that familiar vworp vworp fades in).

Talulah, really!

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1322 on: December 05, 2018, 10:19:24 PM »
How's everyone loving the new Dr Who? Out of ten?

9. Enjoyed every episode so far, best series since 5 in that regard.

TwinPeaks

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1323 on: December 05, 2018, 10:30:14 PM »
I actually thought that the earlier reveal of the Ghost Monument as the TARDIS was one of the more sensible aspects of the story.  We needed a tangible reason for the Doctor to be following that directionless list of non-threats, and knowing she was seeking the TARDIS gave her that goal.  Even when you choose to make your quest story as tedious as all fuck, it needs to be going somewhere.

Imagine if she didn't know for sure though. There was an easy way to make it intriguing - the translation. They even stop and ask why the alien humanoids can understand them, and that could have given Doctor reason to believe the TARDIS was nearby. Maybe they could even show what a struggle it can be without the TARDIS for once, when they're picked up by the spaceships at the beginning - would have made for quite a fun scene, with Angstrom and Epzo speaking a made up language until the Doctor and companions manage to negotiate their arrival on the planet through exaggerated miming. But instead they just went for implants.
I don't think the show's been properly consistent about the TARDIS translation circuit anyway though. It's not like we expect the Daleks really should be speaking their own language whenever we see them in their spaceships.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1324 on: December 05, 2018, 10:47:10 PM »
Imagine if she didn't know for sure though.

Oh yes - if she'd stated some kind of ambiguous hunch, and we ourselves might guess it was the TARDIS but it wasn't known for sure - this would have been better than leaving the reveal until the last few minutes, I think.  (See for example the way the TARDIS was tied into Amy and Rory's wedding by being all at once old, new, borrowed and blue; when this was revealed it felt beautifully obvious, yet still took us by surprise.)   

The problem with revealing any plot resolution in the last few minutes (rather than somehow seeding it earlier) is that it feels like the writer only thought of it in the last few minutes.


They even stop and ask why the alien humanoids can understand them, and that could have given Doctor reason to believe the TARDIS was nearby. Maybe they could even show what a struggle it can be without the TARDIS for once, when they're picked up by the spaceships at the beginning

Indeed.  I complained in a previous post about the cop-out decision to use babelfish when the absence of the TARDIS was a brilliant opportunity to explore a world where the Doctor and companions couldn't understand or be understood.  Just anything to introduce uncertainty and jeopardy, and shake up the format a little. 

Unfortunately it's clear that this kind of thinking/writing is outside of Chibnall's reach, despite how obvious it feels to us.

mothman

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1325 on: December 05, 2018, 11:36:56 PM »
Everyone pretty much figured out what the Ghost Monument had to be as soon as it was mentioned. It’d take better writing than what was available to conceal it. If they’d left it hanging, it’d be like the reveal in Star Trek Discovery that Clem Fandango was a Klingon.

Mister Six

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1326 on: December 06, 2018, 01:39:29 AM »
I always felt that the show run by Gatiss might have a more warped and dark humour to it than he could include in most of the episodes he wrote under RTD or Moffat.  And at least - at least! - he wrote words that sounded natural coming out of his characters’ mouths.

Really? When I think of Gatiss's dialogue I think of really stilted, awkward dialogue that sounds very written. Particularly with his historical characters like the soldiers in Empress of Mars and Robot of Sherwood.

This kind of thing:

Quote
JACKDAW: Here you go, Sarge.
PEACH: Much obliged, I'm sure, Jackdaw.
VINCEY: Don't I get none?
PEACH: RHIP, son.
VINCEY: Eh?
PEACH: Rank has its privileges.
JACKDAW: Christ alive, look at the geld on that thing. That would set a fella up for life, Vincey. Even just a little bit of it.
PEACH: Now then, you 'orrible old man. Don't go getting no fancy notions. I'm sure the Colonel will be distributing this munificence in a fair and decent fashion, and we can all look forward to, to a, a rosy future.
(Peach sways, and Jackdaw catches him, then sits him down.)
VINCEY: Sarge? Jackdaw, what you done?
JACKDAW: A quietner from the infirmary. He'll be as right as ninepence come dawn. But by then, I'll be gone.
VINCEY: Gone? Gone where? Case you've forgotten, we're marooned on ruddy Mars.
JACKDAW: You don't know what I know, son. Captain Catchlove's further on with his repairs than he's let on. Oh, yes, my old love. Jackdaw's going home, but this time, he'll be minted. Come on. Give us a hand.
(They drag Peach a little way and lie him down.)
JACKDAW: Right. Keep an eye out, will you?
VINCEY: Nah, you ain't getting me involved in this lark, Jackdaw.
JACKDAW: Oh, go on. Be a sport. You'll get your share of the rhino, I promise!

Does that sound like anything anyone ever said? Not to me at least.

I also find his Who comedy inexplicably contrived and childish, given his pedigree in other shows. Stuff like TomTom the boy navigator or the gag about the fella constantly fainting, both from The Crimson Horror. Either one of those would have been cringey if it had cropped up in a third-rate CITV show from the 90s. To see it from the pen of Sherlock's own Mark Gatiss is bizarre.

Mister Six

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1327 on: December 06, 2018, 02:45:59 AM »
Really?!

Fucking autocorrect.

And I know none of you care, but that fanfiction thing I was going to work on was uncannily similar to this. Started off as me trying to figure out how to make "In the Forest of the Night" not shit. Wound up being something like: a bookish little girl whose sister has died has retreated into reading, as her mother is too lost in grief to pay much attention to her, but also won't let her leave her home. She finds a door in her bedroom and opens it to find herself inside an amalgamation of the fantasy stories she's been reading. At the same time, the TARDIS gets struck by something mid-materalisation and The Doctor and Graham get pulled into that other world, while Yaz and Ryan end up in the real world, close to the girl's home, eventually finding her mother after rifling through the TARDIS's broom cupboards for some tech that can help them find The Doctor.

The Doctor, Graham and the girl go on a quest drawing on fantastical (especially princessy) fiction, at the end of which it turns out that the girl had been sought out by a living, sentient universe. Basically they are countless universes bubbling up throughout the multiverse, some of which develop their own intelligence. They latch onto more developed universes and attract imaginative people looking for escape, then feed off their knowledge, experiences and dreams to develop and grow into "proper" universes.

To keep their subjects happy, they reflect their desires back on them - in this case, the girl at the end of her quest (which would have slowly explained bits of her backstory) being rewarded with a loving regal mother and being reunited with her sister, and being allowed to live out her life as a princess in a fantasy kingdom. Realising they need to get the kid out of there, The Doctor tries some clever Doctor-y sciencey stuff (look, I hadn't really sat down and plotted this out yet all right) to confound the parasite universe, but it's useless and triggers an autoimmune response of vicious unicorns, munchkins etc. Graham, however, saves them by bonding with the girl over Grace's death, and persuades her that she needs to return to her real mother, who will be destroyed by being bereaved twice over (this would have worked better with cold, aloof Capaldi than warm, empathetic Whittaker but oh well).

While this has been going on, Yaz - drawing on her experience as a rozzer - has managed to get the mum to open up about what's happened. Yaz and Ryan (with the aid of the TARDIS Owner's Manual, Vol. 4,004,376, second edition) manage to halfway open a gateway to the parallel universe. Graham's efforts open up the other half and he, the Doctor and the girl are all brought back to Earth.

The parasite universe, meanwhile, has enough from the girl to subsist and grow, and eventually become its own proper universe. Unnecessary wanky fanfic twist: It grows up to become The Land of Fiction.

There's no way the BBC could afford to shoot it, and Hines' work is way more interesting. But I'm still a bit miffed.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1328 on: December 06, 2018, 07:39:56 AM »
Does that sound like anything anyone ever said? Not to me at least.

It might not be my cup of tea, but it’s not appallingly bad; he didn’t write all his characters like that, and it looks like bliss now that we’re stuck with Chibnall.

I’m not going to massively defend Gatiss for anything; I just think I would have preferred Gatiss as showrunner, remembering that a few years back it seemed both men were equally likely to be offered or take it.  Certain aspects of his scripts for Who may have been unfunny or clunky, but as its showrunner he may have brought different qualities - or to contrast with Chibnall, at least some qualities.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 07:49:58 AM by Replies From View »

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1329 on: December 06, 2018, 10:07:00 AM »
It might not be my cup of tea, but it’s not appallingly bad; he didn’t write all his characters like that, and it looks like bliss now that we’re stuck with Chibnall.

I suspect the watermark for bad writing in Who from now on is going to be "Yeah, but compared to Chibnall, though..."

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1330 on: December 06, 2018, 11:06:19 AM »
I suspect the watermark for bad writing in Who from now on is going to be "Yeah, but compared to Chibnall, though..."

I think it’s fair enough while we are stuck in the Chibnall era and can’t see the future of the show.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1331 on: December 06, 2018, 11:22:01 AM »
As with Stalin Chibbers can only be judged by those that survive his five year plan.

Spoon of Ploff

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1332 on: December 06, 2018, 11:23:48 AM »
Saw some 13th Doctor books in that there Waterstones today. Anyone read any? Are they better than the shows?

Sorry if wrong thread for book things.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1333 on: December 06, 2018, 12:55:50 PM »
Gatiss has a very lazy attitude with historicals. Churchill was whitewashed,  they didn't have to assassinate his character but a more evenhanded approach would have appreciated.
Calling the Russian Captain in Cold War Zhukov was very lazy. He could have chosen any name, Zhukov is probably the most well known Soviet military figure in recent history.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1334 on: December 06, 2018, 04:42:05 PM »
I like The Unquiet Dead, Night Terrors & The Crimson Horror, so Gatiss has written 3 episodes of Doctor Who that I like compared to Chibnall's zero. Also, the Bracewell Ironsides are the best version of the Daleks since the sixties. "WOULD YOU LIKE A CUP OF TEA!" Daleks are always better when they're being sneaky little shits.

Thomas

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daf

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1336 on: December 06, 2018, 06:58:57 PM »
Gatiss has a very lazy attitude with historicals.

He's got a cracker sitting on the bookshelf if they fancy a pure historical : The Roundheads
Quote
It is December 1648. Although victorious over the Cavaliers in the Civil Wars, the Roundheads are struggling to retain power. Plans are afoot to spirit King Charles from his prison, and the Doctor and his companions become embroiled in the intrigue...

No need for (too much) extra work to adapt it - as that also features three companions :

- The Doctor and Jamie Ryan find themselves arrested and imprisoned in the Tower of London under suspicion of conspiracy.
- Ben Graham finds himself press-ganged and on board a mysterious ship to Amsterdam.
- Polly Yaz is an unwitting accomplice in the plot to rescue the King

(plus barnstorming guest roles for Charles I, Oliver Cromwell, and a woman Pirate Captain)

 - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ryan and Graham's roles could be swapped at a pinch - not sure which works best really. Graham and the Doctor work so well together, but it could over-shaddow the other two plot strands, so I spread the load a bit by splitting them up (Graham walking the plank, though - THIS MUST HAPPEN!)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 07:16:36 PM by daf »

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1337 on: December 06, 2018, 07:12:29 PM »
Always thought this would make a good Doctor Who story.





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Malcy

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1338 on: December 07, 2018, 08:15:08 PM »
Info on the New Year villains in today's Daily Record but haven't seen it anywhere else. I won't post what they are called or anything. People can do a search if they want more info.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1339 on: December 07, 2018, 08:20:55 PM »
Was in the Mirror too (which I think is the Record's sister paper) so it's probably the same article.

daf

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1340 on: December 07, 2018, 09:51:18 PM »
I won't post what they are called or anything.

My three guesses :

K'plong ov Kalaxxinoop
ZX Spectroxxx
The Todger
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 10:01:37 PM by daf »

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1341 on: December 07, 2018, 10:00:39 PM »
JSTOR of Eringrad

Table Disgust in Orion

Leaving Party

Potting Sheds of L’bryaryanscha

Valid Enclosure

Grassroots Period

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1342 on: December 07, 2018, 10:07:14 PM »
Azzabbadabba Ooh Wank

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1343 on: December 07, 2018, 10:42:06 PM »
The Gangelsplacks Brotherhood?

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1344 on: December 07, 2018, 10:43:52 PM »
Azzabbadabba Ooh Wank

No review of the last episode yet buddy?

mothman

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1345 on: December 07, 2018, 10:48:05 PM »
I've always through "the Kravmaga" would make a good Who alien name.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1346 on: December 07, 2018, 10:55:19 PM »
No review of the last episode yet buddy?

That was my review.

Not really! How funny. Preview screeners aren't available for the final episode, as they obviously want to keep that shocking Racist Time Fonz twist under wraps.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1347 on: December 07, 2018, 11:02:32 PM »
I've always through "the Kravmaga" would make a good Who alien name.

The N'eol Edmundz.

Malcy

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1348 on: December 07, 2018, 11:05:36 PM »
That was my review.

Not really! How funny. Preview screeners aren't available for the final episode, as they obviously want to keep that shocking Racist Time Fonz twist under wraps.

They want to keep the reveal that Arch Bills Inch is rhe big bad uñder wraps. Whoops I've said too much, said Michael Stipe.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #1349 on: December 07, 2018, 11:17:46 PM »
Is that a cryptic clue? Fortunately, my brain can't compute cryptic clues.