Author Topic: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)  (Read 50124 times)

Mister Six

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2250 on: January 11, 2019, 08:17:31 PM »
Is that just what was shown or are there bits there that were cut from the broadcast episode?

Does it do a better job of making Dead Nan's death less utterly pointless?

Can't be arsed reading it all, but there are music cues and scene timestamps, so I'm guessing it's been edited after it was aired to bring it in line with what made the final cut.

As for dead man, this is from a quick skim:

Quote
GRACE has climbed the ladder -- where THE CREATURE is swarming over the structure. She has two electrodes in her hand. She looks up to the swirling creature --

She looks back to GRAHAM -- he gives her the thumbs up.

So not really. Looks like Chibnall imagined the creature wrapping itself around the base of the crane, but there's no suggestion there (or further up from what I can see) that it's putting anyone in danger before or after Tim Shaw "dies".

Not clear why he didn't make that more explicit, or why it wasn't caught during the production by anyone.

Norton Canes

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2251 on: January 11, 2019, 08:33:22 PM »
I reckon yer Phoebe Waller-Bridge would be in with a great chance of getting it, if she was remotely interested. If nothing else it would be a great get-out clause for casting another white male Doctor (plus, she's really good).

But, the problem is, show-running Doctor Who is such a massive commitment. I can't see anyone other than a die-hard fan doing it for more than a single season.

I mean she might be more interested if she was given free rein to take the show in whatever direction she liked; but it seems the BBC have quite firm ideas about how they want their flagship show.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 08:45:15 PM by Norton Canes »

Thomas

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2252 on: January 11, 2019, 08:59:19 PM »
I believe Neil Cross has BBC showrunning experience in Spooks and the ever-ongoing Luther, and, of course, script experience in Doctor Who, so I reckon he'd be best poised to handle it for a few years, if he wanted it. I imagine he must have been asked.

Perhaps the role could develop into more of a shared thing, rather than there being a plate-spinning central 'showrunner & head writer' at the centre of things, going grey, developing insomnia, and deleting Twitter. The head role could be swapped between two writers each series, with an agreed shared vision keeping the show focused (allowing both writers to relax/work on other things every other year).

I've just watched and absolutely loved Will Sharpe's series Flowers - which he wrote, starred in, and directed. There are a few writers out there with a diamond stamina. (Julian Barrett has also long been a personal pick of mine for Doctordom).

Failing all of that, I'd be up for it, with a team of screenwriters and Ideas People plucked from this thread. We could knock together a ten-episode series, easy. Got four of them planned myself (which is why I'm head writer).

I can't think of many other shows where this sort of long-term consideration would feel necessary or justified. How long is Doctor Who intended to go on? Just forever? Even new Who alone is outliving yer average popular series.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2253 on: January 11, 2019, 09:14:17 PM »

RTD once mentioned he'd asked Paul Abbott to pitch an episode, and what he came back with was something incredibly wild that wouldn't have really fit the series at that point, but it does raise some intriguing possibilities.

That was the "Rose had been deliberately manufactured to be the perfect companion" one wasn't it?

Mister Six

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2254 on: January 11, 2019, 09:20:38 PM »
How long is Doctor Who intended to go on? Just forever?

Ideally, yeah  It's a series that has no particular reason to ever end, provided the production team doesn't fuck everything up horrendously and a sustainable model can be found re: showrunner duties.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2255 on: January 11, 2019, 09:31:01 PM »
Kevin Eldon as the Master.

Only if he plays it as the evil hypnotist from Big Train.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2256 on: January 11, 2019, 10:06:43 PM »
Ideally, yeah  It's a series that has no particular reason to ever end, provided the production team doesn't fuck everything up horrendously and a sustainable model can be found re: showrunner duties.

I don't know whether the BBC see it that way.  They perceive it as a show that is an aging brand even in its current form - hardly any dramas like this exist for eleven series, and nothing is contracted for more than a few years at a time.  In the end I think that if they feel it's outlived its relevance they'll drop it for something new and fresh.

Mister Six

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2257 on: January 11, 2019, 10:35:11 PM »
There's no reason for it to ever lose its relevance, though - with audiences or the media. It can endlessly reinvent itself and new showrunners, leads and guest cast members make it easy to drum up interest.

Alberon

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2258 on: January 11, 2019, 10:36:10 PM »
I don't know whether the BBC see it that way.  They perceive it as a show that is an aging brand even in its current form - hardly any dramas like this exist for eleven series, and nothing is contracted for more than a few years at a time.  In the end I think that if they feel it's outlived its relevance they'll drop it for something new and fresh.

It will end at some point. It's only thirteen years away from passing the length of the original run already (which seems mad, the original run stretched from years before I was born to when I had a full time job, 2005 was just a couple of years ago by comparison).

But to be optimistic for once, it will come back. RTD brought the show back from the dead, one revival had failed and this was the absolute final chance. And it worked. And that shows that five, ten, fifteen or whatever years after the next cancellation it will return. Some fan who is a toddler now will go on to be a great writer and/or producer and they will seize the chance to bring it back.

And while Chibnall is poor in comparison to RTD or Moffat, his show has increased ratings. That last series, for all its problems, is not seen as a failure.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2259 on: January 11, 2019, 10:38:06 PM »
It won't be long before the people who were 8 years old in 2005 will be able to take over as writers and showrunners of Doctor Who.  That's a weird thought.

Until that happens I think the show's days are numbered in the sense that it is being held up by a small bubble of Tom Baker and Peter Davison fans who are obviously diminishing in terms of what they can keep bringing to it.

mothman

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2260 on: January 11, 2019, 10:42:15 PM »
You don’t seem to notice the BBC fretting over the fact that Silent Witness is still going, though.

Alberon

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2261 on: January 11, 2019, 10:44:54 PM »
You don’t seem to notice the BBC fretting over the fact that Silent Witness is still going, though.

Or ITV over Midsomer Murders, or the 27 years Taggart was on the air (despite the title lead dying just 11 years in).

Mister Six

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2262 on: January 12, 2019, 03:15:40 AM »
It won't be long before the people who were 8 years old in 2005 will be able to take over as writers and showrunners of Doctor Who.  That's a weird thought.

Until that happens I think the show's days are numbered in the sense that it is being held up by a small bubble of Tom Baker and Peter Davison fans who are obviously diminishing in terms of what they can keep bringing to it.

I don't think that holds up, since Colin and Sylv fans must be in their 40s and late 30s now, so not too far off being of an appropriate level of experience to take over.

And even if you want to say the last of the McCoy fans would mark some kind of watershed, the reboot has made fans of plenty who would have grown up without Who in their childhoods.

Besides, I'm not sure how healthy it is to always have a long-time super fan at the helm. Perhaps someone coming to it anew - as was the case up until the 80s at least - will inject something quite unexpected and original into the show. So long as there's someone on staff who understands what makes Who tick and can quietly nix plans for The Doctor to start eating people or something, it could be great.

TwinPeaks

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2263 on: January 12, 2019, 03:28:42 AM »
I'm alright with future showrunners not really being huge fans of all of Who. Can't really beat Moffat on that front, putting mad spins on obscure bits of lore.
I really love how cheekily meta he was getting towards the end of his era... this line in the Day of the Doctor novelisation, on the subject of the 10th Doctor marrying Elizabeth I, is one of my favourite Doctor Who things ever written:
Quote
Now I can see a few of you looking uncomfortable, and one of you has just thrown the book across the room. Please give warning when you’re feeling inclined to do that, I nearly dropped the pen. I suspect you worry about the vulgar light in which this book is presenting a cherished historical icon, renowned as the most famous virgin who ever lived, but I would remind you that the popular assumption of complete chastity and purity is almost certainly ill founded - after all, he had a granddaughter.

pigamus

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2264 on: January 12, 2019, 03:28:49 AM »
I don't think that holds up, since Colin and Sylv fans must be in their 40s and late 30s now, so not too far off being of an appropriate level of experience to take over.

Sylv fan here! Turned 40 last October!

I don't want to take over, though. Too much responsibility.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2265 on: January 12, 2019, 08:27:09 AM »
Sylv fan here! Turned 40 last October!

I don't want to take over, though. Too much responsibility.

Haha, OLD!  I don’t turn 40 until November this year, by which time you will already be 41!!

When they say don’t forget the Doctor had a granddaughter, what they really mean is YOU ARE SUPER OLD MATE.



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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2266 on: January 12, 2019, 09:18:53 AM »
I'm alright with future showrunners not really being huge fans of all of Who. Can't really beat Moffat on that front, putting mad spins on obscure bits of lore.
I really love how cheekily meta he was getting towards the end of his era... this line in the Day of the Doctor novelisation, on the subject of the 10th Doctor marrying Elizabeth I, is one of my favourite Doctor Who things ever written:
That's great. I really love the bit in World Enough and Time about him actually being called Doctor Who. Why not? Fuck it

It's surprising Chibnall isn't a Sylv fan actually given how close his version of Who is to that run, in that it's fucking shit.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2267 on: January 12, 2019, 09:50:00 AM »
That was the "Rose had been deliberately manufactured to be the perfect companion" one wasn't it?

That sound you can hear is Lawrence Miles imploding.

Mister Six

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2268 on: January 12, 2019, 10:26:27 AM »
It's surprising Chibnall isn't a Sylv fan actually given how close his version of Who is to that run, in that it's fucking shit.

Chibnall wishes he could have written something a millionth as interesting as Ghost Light for season 11. Come to think of it, so do I.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2269 on: January 12, 2019, 01:24:05 PM »
That was the "Rose had been deliberately manufactured to be the perfect companion" one wasn't it?

I wonder if this abandoned strand is what led to River Song being manufactured into the Doctor's bespoke assassin.

Spoon of Ploff

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2270 on: January 12, 2019, 06:43:07 PM »
In summary then:


Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2271 on: January 12, 2019, 09:14:43 PM »
That "About Time" pun might have worked better if Richard Curtis hadn't already used it for a shit film.

Given that pretty much everyone apart from a load of toxic whiny twats thought it was probably time for a female Doctor, casting a woman was pretty much the safest decision Chibnall could have made under the circumstances, wasn't it?

Also - the way the character is written - I mean, we've been blaming Chibnall, but Whittaker must have had some input, surely? I can't imagine if he'd cast Olivia Colman, as he supposedly wanted to, he'd have written the same character for her. Or maybe he did, and sent her a script, and that's why she turned it down.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2272 on: January 12, 2019, 09:24:38 PM »
So not really. Looks like Chibnall imagined the creature wrapping itself around the base of the crane, but there's no suggestion there (or further up from what I can see) that it's putting anyone in danger before or after Tim Shaw "dies".

Not clear why he didn't make that more explicit, or why it wasn't caught during the production by anyone.

I don't know if it's in the script, but there's a line (possibly off-camera) that stood out when I rewatched it, where Grace or Graham say something about it trying to bring the crane down. So that's what's supposed to be happening.

EDIT: here we are:

Quote from: 10:45:14 EXT. SKYLARK BUILDING SITE - NIGHT 1 - CONTINUOUS
GRACE running back towards The Doctor/Ryan/Yaz's crane -- GRAHAM in pursuit --

             GRAHAM O'BRIEN
             Grace. She explicitly said not to come
             back. It's not safe!

                       GRACE O'BRIEN
             Look --

They look at the bottom of Crane 2 -- THE CREATURE hovers and then wraps itself around here.

And as they look, it writhes around the structure -- and the metal starts to erode --

                       GRACE O'BRIEN (CONT'D)
             It's swapped cranes it's trying to
             bring it down. We have to stop it!

EDIT 2: Also:

Quote from: 10:46:19 EXT. BOTTOM OF CRANE NUMBER TWO - NIGHT 1 - CONTINUOUS
THE CREATURE'S TENTACLES GLOWING, WRITHING and ERODING the metal infrastructure -- into the cables beneath -- ENERGY FLOODING OFF THE CREATURE -- BANG! The cables fizz and fire -- sabotaged!

Mister Six

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2273 on: January 13, 2019, 03:07:20 AM »
All right, fair fucks. Total cock-up on the director's part, I guess.

Given that pretty much everyone apart from a load of toxic whiny twats thought it was probably time for a female Doctor, casting a woman was pretty much the safest decision Chibnall could have made under the circumstances, wasn't it?

Yeah, I think it was a smart move. It's clearly given the show a massive boost with minimal effort, although I think conservative audiences would have accepted a non-white male Doctor more readily than a woman of any colour.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2274 on: January 13, 2019, 11:31:02 AM »
I also think that pretty much any of the other women that had been rumoured as being in the running would have made a better, or at least more interesting, Doctor than the one we got. (Although some of the men might have been worse.)

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2275 on: January 13, 2019, 11:36:01 AM »
That "About Time" pun might have worked better if Richard Curtis hadn't already used it for a shit film.

Plus it's already tired within the context of Doctor Who.  It was used to promote the TV Movie, and it heralded the arrival of Matt Smith's Doctor too.  Now that an 18 month gap between every series appears to be the norm, 'It's About Time' now feels more like a resigned sigh about constant re-shelving than a thrilling hint towards any new future.


Given that pretty much everyone apart from a load of toxic whiny twats thought it was probably time for a female Doctor, casting a woman was pretty much the safest decision Chibnall could have made under the circumstances, wasn't it?

The safest, yes, and I'd say the most "obvious" for somebody like Chibnall who thinks squarely within the box.  I think that within the context of a show in its eleventh series, the time lapsed between the introduction of a female Master and the first female Doctor is about right, but it feels a bit off when you look at it in the context of a show with 55 years of history.  Relatively speaking, the introduction of Missy and then Whittaker's Doctor all came very suddenly, and in this sense it wouldn't have done any harm to have another male between Capaldi and the first female Doctor, apart from the fact it was the safest option in the current circumstances.  In the end, what should have been a refreshing new take has been buggered up by shit writing.  Maybe we should have had Chibnall driving the show into the ground with a dreary male incarnation, and had the show rescued five years later by a female showrunner and female Doctor.


Quote
Also - the way the character is written - I mean, we've been blaming Chibnall, but Whittaker must have had some input, surely? I can't imagine if he'd cast Olivia Colman, as he supposedly wanted to, he'd have written the same character for her. Or maybe he did, and sent her a script, and that's why she turned it down.

Hmm, not sure.  I know that Smith was encouraged to immerse himself in the history of the show a bit before getting stuck into his characterisation, and when doing so he developed a connection with Troughton's portrayal.  From what I can tell the opposite is true of Whittaker, though.  I think she's been told to remain ignorant of the show in order to approach it in a completely fresh manner, in which case I'm not sure how much she can be blamed/credited for her "version" of the Doctor.  It's just her responding to the scripts, I'd imagine.

Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2276 on: January 13, 2019, 12:42:15 PM »
And what has she given us as a result ? A generic, whacky female lead that might be found in a sit-com made for BBC3 ten years ago, or on Radio 4 at 6.30 on a Tuesday night. It's a competent enough performance for that type of thing, but it's not strong enough to anchor this show to my mind. Asked to describe this doctor and it would be a list of things she's not - arrogant, bossy, mercurial, a champion of the underdog. She could still do it,  I wish she would because I like her as an actress, but she hasn't had a chance to do anything Doctor-ish, but not does she seem to be trying to find it. You could replace her with Miranda Hart and there would be no difference.And that's down to a lack of knowledge about the part, I would suggest.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2277 on: January 13, 2019, 01:10:34 PM »
My pre-ordered DVD of Series 11 arrived today, and I'm going to check out the commentaries soon.  The back of the box boasts:

INCLUDES OVER AN HOUR OF BONUS CONTENT

Which is pretty cack really, isn't it.  Presumably that total doesn't include the duration of commentaries, but I nevertheless suspect a lot of the extras have already appeared on the youtube channel.

Nice 3D lenticular effect on the cover of the box though; I'll give that to them.

Little leaflet inside says that there are commentaries on The Woman Who Fell To Earth, Rosa, The Tsuranga Conundrum and Demons of the Punjab.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2278 on: January 13, 2019, 01:33:26 PM »
I've just transcribed part of one of the extras where Whittaker is talking about her contribution to the costume design:

Quote
I just felt like I wanted the various colours of the sky, so you've got like the darkness of space [points at shoulder of coat] up here, and this [pointing at trousers] is a very kind of darkened sky but then you've got like the kind of light greyish kind of lilac-ness of the sky [indicating outside of coat] and I just - without it being a complete blue wash, I wanted that.

[Regarding the earrings] This, the idea is that, so the stars are silver; so the silver stars there which is essentially where I've come from obviously.  And the chain is the journey, to the silver hand from the stars, which is me as the person from space, and the rose gold hand is humanity, and just the marrying of those two things.

Scintillating stuff isn't it.


At four discs I think this is the skimpiest new series box set yet.

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Re: Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2)
« Reply #2279 on: January 13, 2019, 01:54:01 PM »
I'm not going to keep transcribing for now, but I really can't convey how vapid this all is. 

In a 7 minute extra called 'Regenerating Doctor Who' Chibnall chugs his way painfully through vacuous, basic points that someone like Moffat might make in a couple of seconds before moving on.  Moffat might quickly say "Having a new Doctor is an opportunity to present the show in a new light, give it a new visual style, reset the stories and give new viewers an opportunity to get onboard..." but then he would move on to something else - he'd build on it and explore something deeper and more interesting.  Chibnall spends minutes on just those points, lingers on them, spends ages forming them as if they are profound statements that need to be groped towards... and then that's it.  Those things were his entire point.

He really doesn't impress.  I don't think he is very clever.  In fact I don't think anybody responsible for this era of Doctor Who is very clever apart from maybe the composer.