Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 29, 2024, 11:30:34 AM

Login with username, password and session length

The Royal British Legion

Started by Petey Pate, November 08, 2018, 11:48:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

biggytitbo

Yes its very sad. I prefer to remember those good wars symbolised by this arrangement of wet fish -


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 09, 2018, 09:47:17 AM
I'm afraid it has become an industry, a new Halloween, with endless tacky merchandise and cheap Chinese produced tat, as well as the annual parade of poppy fascism from cunts. We all as individuals are quite capable of remembering the cruel sacrifice of young men in WW1 with internal reflection, as it used to be until recent years, without endorsing or having to take part in the tawdry spectacle it has become today.

I'm not arguing with that, I'm arguing that there are people involved in the "poppy industry" that genuinely do the work and care about the people the charity aims to help.  As individuals we can do something two things at once like give to homeless people and argue that their shouldn't be the need to give.  We can question the "poppy industry" and demand that funds are directed towards lobbying governments for better support for veterans (and appropriate use of whilst we are at it). 

The most impactful part of Bastani's piece is the salary and non-politicisation of the Royal Legion not that is an terrible institution in itself (that is what the right-wing have tried to imply).  The poppy should be reappropriated not erased it is a good thing and it belongs to us.

biggytitbo

Or even better, stop having the wars in the first place. I'm afraid I have more sympathy with the hundreds of thousands of innocent people professional soldiers have killed in the last 15 years alone then I do for the professional soldiers who killed them, for the benefit of rich people in the west. I'm not saying they're all monsters or anything but they have a damn site more choice in their participation in the various engineered conflicts then most of their victims.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 09, 2018, 01:28:46 PM
Or even better, stop having the wars in the first place. I'm afraid I have more sympathy with the hundreds of thousands of innocent people professional soldiers have killed in the last 15 years alone then I do for the professional soldiers who killed them, for the benefit of rich people in the west. I'm not saying they're all monsters or anything but they have a damn site more choice in their participation in the various engineered conflicts then most of their victims.

I think the point of rememberance is to acknowledge soldiers also as victims.  Poor working class cannon fodder who were mandatory conscripts and who were shot for crime of desertion.

That is point it is very particular thing about a particular war and its aftermath in which the working class said no to being cannon fodder and killing other different looking cannon fodder in other countries.

Outside of this, whilst I am adamantly against the glorification of war (I think a great point about the invctus games - I said this ages ago) personally, my heart is big enough to see how some poor desperate men (and women) get cajoled into joining the army.  I would find it hard to not feel sympathy for a person left paraplegic after doing the only thing they thought they would be good at. 

but then i'm simultaneously a dangerous radical Marxist and limp-wristed lentil muncher. 

Paul Calf

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on November 09, 2018, 09:25:41 AM
No not "whatever well intentioned elements remain"....the well intentioned bits are worth more than your fucking lazy dismissal, they were appropriated, they belong to us and all sensible people that recognise that WWI was a disaster for largely poor masses that were marched to their death.  It isn't enough biggy to just twist this into another one of your grand conspiracy brain farts (the whole poppy industry ffs listen to yourself).

We don't have to sacrifice the well meaning elements on the altar the jingoists created.

How many just wars have there been since 1945? How many times has Britain sent young men and women to die and to kill and maim others for profit and political advantage? To turn towns and villages into ruins filled with bloated, rotting, mutilated corpses, roast and boil each other alive and leave them torn and screaming because it would help someone's portfolio or election chances?

This is why I won't wear a poppy any more. It blinds us to the horror of war and seduces us into thinking that those who fight it are heroes.

Quote"It may be that this is a book that will make you sick. If so, my advice to you is to read it and be sick, for such sickness is humanity's only hope for a sane and healthy world."

Alastair McCrae, reviewing Wheels Of Terror

bgmnts

I think people who glamourise and idolise soldiers and war will do so whether there are poppies or not.

I also think people who are anti-war and find soldiers victims of shit politicians will do so whether there are poppies or not.

Paul Calf

And plastering images of poppies all over massive ad banners shrieking "HELP FOR HEROES" presumably has no influence whatsoever on these perceptions?

bgmnts

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 09, 2018, 02:06:57 PM
And plastering images of poppies all over massive ad banners shrieking "HELP FOR HEROES" presumably has no influence whatsoever on these perceptions?

Possibly.

biggytitbo

When it gets to the point where the cookie monster is forced to wear one on national TV and you can buy a pair of knickers with a poppy over the front line, its safe to say its gone beyond the kind of quite dignified reflection on tragically wasted lives 100 years ago it was intended to be. Its a bit like when you get some ruthless, unethical, tax dodging, environment destroying multinational corporation spend 0.001% of their vast profits on 'social responsibility' and do something inspiring with the homeless or something, as long as it has their logo on. Thats what the poppy industry has become to the vast war for profit empire we unfortunately play such a prominent part in.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: bgmnts on November 09, 2018, 02:04:01 PM
I think people who glamourise and idolise soldiers and war will do so whether there are poppies or not.

I also think people who are anti-war and find soldiers victims of shit politicians will do so whether there are poppies or not.

Which is in itself a reasonable argument in favour of stopping the commodification of poppies by corporate interests and the government and endowing the British Legion with the ability to reclaim and reinforce the significance of the poppy.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

The use of animal flesh to form poppies is one of the true unthinking acts, the spectacular lack of awareness of the sheer gruesomeness and vulgarity on show.

Soup

Big Poppy started WWII. Read a book.

iamcoop

On my train journey to London on Wednesday we were accosted three times by men walking up and down the carriages selling poppies. Fucking outrageous. The passive aggressive bullying tactics of the poppy brigade these days actually makes me angry. I'm considering writing an email of complaint to my train provider but this is where we're at now it seems and I can't envisage things changing.

bgmnts

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 09, 2018, 02:17:36 PM
When it gets to the point where the cookie monster is forced to wear one on national TV.

Laughed.

Norton Canes


kngen

Might as well put this here - just got back from my 6-year-old's 'Veteran's Day' pageant or whatever the fuck they call it at her school. Jesus fucking christ on a Triumph Bonneville, I knew this country was pretty fucked up, but now I've seen where it comes from.

The music teacher proudly spoke about her family's military background (her family, not her - she's a music teacher) then barked orders (over the Tannoy) at a Girl Scout troupe carrying an American flag. 'Color guard. ATTENTION! Color guard. MARCH!' ... they marched six or so feet across the hallowed grounds of the school cafeteria ... 'Color guard. HALT!', and then the gaggle of 6 to 8 year olds fumbled with two flags and swapped them back and forth for some arcane reason that I'm sure is a great comfort to millions of grieving relatives affected by America's overseas misadventures in the last half-century. I've wanted to punch many a music teacher in my life, but never so much as I did now.

I wish I had videoed it, but I was stunned into inaction, and could only mutter 'Is this North fucking Korea or something?' and was gently shushed by my wife.

Then we had to pledge allegiance - I stayed seated, because I just couldn't. I knew it was coming, and was already in two minds about what I should do, as I didn't want to embarrass my daughter should I become the target of some jingoistic shithead nearby, but it also occurred to me that this is how it fucking works, isn't it? Everyone falls in lock-step, and those that have reservations about this kind of charade are browbeaten into going along with it for the sake of a quiet life. If anything, the little display by the Chesterfield Jugend and their Musikgruppenfuhrer hardened my resolve, so I didn't stand, and neither did my wife (all glories to her!). There were a few stares and mutterings, but nothing that would bring shame on the family name in front of an audience of suburban shitheads.

There were songs about how great America was, how amazing flags are and you should cry when you see them, and how veterans are essentially demigods and we should genuflect before them any chance we get. But the piece de resistance was a spoken word piece called 'America's White Table' (any alarm bells ringing yet?) The bit about 'the tablecloth being white to represent the pure heart of the soldier who gives his life for freedom' was bad enough, but having an African-American child read out the line 'the black napkin represents sorrow in the world' - mwah, my compliments to the chef who created this particular bullshit buffet!

But it gave me a deeper understanding of one thing - why (some) Americans get so fucking angry about flags and standing (or taking a knee) and all that pompous ceremonial shite that they drape over their blinkered worldview. It's primal - it's instilled in them at such a young age that they can't even articulate their emotions about it when its challenged later on in life. The fucking gall to criticise madrassas or 'Marxist lecturers' when this shit is going on every day in every school across this bloody country - it's just breathtaking it its hypocrisy.

I realise none of this should come as a surprise, but it's only when I was confronted with it in its full naked glory that I appreciated just how deep this shit goes.

Oh, and when it was all wrapped up, the deputy head came out to ask the parents the applaud our kids for 'showing such great leadership' (this is one of the 'principals of success' or somesuch shite they're always crapping on about). Yes, taking orders barked out by a delusional music teacher/drill sergeant and singing words you don't understand about 'remembering the 11th' while waving red, white and blue paper plates about - leadership. Orwell would be so fucking proud. I'm seriously thinking about looking into home-schooling.


Blumf

Quote from: biggytitbo on November 09, 2018, 01:11:28 PM
Remember -



As always, one side gets the meat, and the other is left with hard cheese.

kngen

Quote from: bgmnts on November 09, 2018, 02:04:01 PM
I think people who glamourise and idolise soldiers and war will do so whether there are poppies or not.

I also think people who are anti-war and find soldiers victims of shit politicians will do so whether there are poppies or not.

There's been a marked increase in 'Are Brave Boys' rhetoric over the last 20 years, particularly after the second Gulf war, though.  Not sure if it was by design or came about organically, but it seems as if it was recognised that tying the poppy to the first world war meant it had a limited shelf life, and it suddenly became about every war – even rogue patrols murdering Afghani goat-herders for a laugh or British troops in NI who had colluded with Loyalist terrorist groups should be sanctified. If you questioned them, then you were disgracing the memories of those that 'gave' their lives to fight the Kaiser for reasons no-one is really clear about, even now.

Quote from: kngen on November 09, 2018, 03:58:05 PM
There's been a marked increase in 'Are Brave Boys' rhetoric over the last 20 years, particularly after the second Gulf war, though.  Not sure if it was by design or came about organically, but it seems as if it was recognised that tying the poppy to the first world war meant it had a limited shelf life, and it suddenly became about every war – even rogue patrols murdering Afghani goat-herders for a laugh or British troops in NI who had colluded with Loyalist terrorist groups should be sanctified. If you questioned them, then you were disgracing the memories of those that 'gave' their lives to fight the Kaiser for reasons no-one is really clear about, even now.

It also ties in the "The Muslims/EU/PC brigade are trying to ban..." movement where people start overdoing it because they need to fight back against something the Daily Express made up and the only way they can do it is by plastering themselves and their homes with massive displays of consumerism.

They couldn't really give a shit about the flag/brave boys/Christmas, they just think that spending a few hundred quid to reduce Schroedinger's brown person to tears is good value for money.

im barry bethel

Quote from: kngen on November 09, 2018, 03:47:36 PM
But the piece de resistance was a spoken word piece called 'America's White Table' (any alarm bells ringing yet?) The bit about 'the tablecloth being white to represent the pure heart of the soldier who gives his life for freedom' was bad enough, but having an African-American child read out the line 'the black napkin represents sorrow in the world' - mwah, my compliments to the chef who created this particular bullshit buffet!

'kin ell!



N.B. don't let Nev catch you calling it a tannoy

Paul Calf


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 09, 2018, 01:57:23 PM
How many just wars have there been since 1945? How many times has Britain sent young men and women to die and to kill and maim others for profit and political advantage? To turn towns and villages into ruins filled with bloated, rotting, mutilated corpses, roast and boil each other alive and leave them torn and screaming because it would help someone's portfolio or election chances?

This is why I won't wear a poppy any more. It blinds us to the horror of war and seduces us into thinking that those who fight it are heroes.

Am I meant to pretend to be disagreeing with this.  My point is specifically that rememberance and the poppy is and should be about WW1.

Not even about WW2 in my opinion (and less so any other war past).

That doesn't conflict with me having sympathy for military treated badly by government since.  Different things with different responses and different conditions. 

gilbertharding

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on November 09, 2018, 04:55:56 PM
My point is specifically that remembrance and the poppy is and should be about WW1.

Well, it hasn't been for almost exactly 73 years. Your opinion is irrelevant, with respect.

It was more recent than that they took the words 'Haig Fund' from the middle, mind.

Paul Calf

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on November 09, 2018, 04:55:56 PM
Am I meant to pretend to be disagreeing with this.  My point is specifically that rememberance and the poppy is and should be about WW1.

Not even about WW2 in my opinion (and less so any other war past).

That doesn't conflict with me having sympathy for military treated badly by government since.  Different things with different responses and different conditions. 

But if it's functioning as a recruiting tool for the modern army - which does seem to be the case - then perhaps it's time to wonder whether the poppy and all the fake hero worship that gathers around it is doing more harm than good.

biggytitbo


Zetetic

I suppose the question is whether there's room - personally, politically, socially - to turn "remembrance" towards a discussion of:

- The ethics of schoolyard recruitment, from our most deprived communities
- The impact of taking children with difficult backgrounds and exposing them further trauma
- Whether we're doing the right things by leavers and the communities they're loosed upon
- Whether we use our military in accordance with our responsibilities to its members and the rest of humanity

Politically and socially, I don't really know. I don't know where the specific symbolism of the (red?) poppy falls in this - but part of me thinks that the reference to WWI with its prominence as pointless in much, but certainly not all and perhaps increasingly less, public thought is significant here.

Public views of WWI do seem to be quite variable.

BlodwynPig


KennyMonster

Quote from: kngen on November 09, 2018, 03:58:05 PM
There's been a marked increase in 'Are Brave Boys' rhetoric over the last 20 years, particularly after the second Gulf war, though.  Not sure if it was by design or came about organically, but it seems as if it was recognised that tying the poppy to the first world war meant it had a limited shelf life, and it suddenly became about every war – even rogue patrols murdering Afghani goat-herders for a laugh or British troops in NI who had colluded with Loyalist terrorist groups should be sanctified. If you questioned them, then you were disgracing the memories of those that 'gave' their lives to fight the Kaiser for reasons no-one is really clear about, even now.

It was oil wasn't it?
Germans had Mesopotamia/Iraq and a railway that almost went there (Orient Express).

Our Navy wanted oil rather than coal.

British troops were sent there in WWI.

Makes a lot more sense than a Serb shot an Austrian so Britain said to Germany 'lets dig some ditches in France and Belgium and shoot at each other'

Summit like that anyway*

*I've done no** research.

**extremely limited

bgmnts

I always assumed it was less about oil or resources or ideology and more just the complex system of alliances that existed during that time. Weren't they masterminded by Bismarck?


BritishHobo

I hope my poor diet doesn't kill me soon because I want to see how Rememberance day is in fifty-odd years, whether the jingoism and obsession with tradition has worn down or whether young people are still obsessively adhering to it.

I think what increasingly fucks me off is the ranks of people who won't allow any questioning of the establishment and will treat it as an attack on the heroic soldiers themselves. If you wear a white poppy you're an unpatriotic coward who hates every dead soldier. We learn nothing.