How to stop being "Friend Zoned"?

[Black Ship]

I've known this guy for years and we've always been like really friendly, but have a deeper attraction to him and, I'm really unsure about how he feels about me. I mean I met up with him the other day and he finally took me for that coffee (well tea) that he's been promising for a while and we just sat and chatted for a while. I was studying his body language attentively and he sat in a very open manner and made personal grooming gesture, which is good sign, isn't it?

I mean, I really like this guy, but I've been let down before. I pour affection into people and then they turn around and then tell me that they only want to be friends. (Once a mutual asked one of these guys if we were dating, - not the same guy I might add- and before I could explain our relationship, he's snapped that we were just friends)  It hurts. It really hurts, and all the time I've wasted batting my eyes at these people when I could have been looking for someone who'll just accept me, and love me and allow me to love them

Am I that grotesque that a man's vanity cannot cope with having me in his proximity except as friend? I mean sure, I'm not what you'd call conventionally beautiful (yesimoverweightilladmitthat), but I'm smart, well read, impeccably dressed most of the time, generous with time and money.

I'm nearly 40 FFS. Everyone around is me paired up and/or having a family. Every month I get a sharp reminder of how close to midnight my biological clock is ticking. I'm already in the danger zone for genetic/birth defects and difficult pregnancies. If I got pregnant now I'd be a "Geriatric Premegravida".

Geriatric. I'm not even out of my 30.

I'm really frightened. I don't even know where this topic is going. It's really hard to put in to words how absolutely terrified I am of my future, which I can only see as empty and lonely and bleak.
I can't do this any more. I can't form deep romantic attachment with people, and have it only on my side. Am I turning into some kind of "incel" here, because that would give me just another reason to hate myself. And you can forget about applying to fucking dating sites. I'm not paying good money out of my limited budget to be told by computer how much of a failure I am.

40 is rising up before me like a tombstone and I'm really terrified. I don't know what to do. 

[New Jack]

Commiserations :(

One, age is fuck all, stop counting, just like yourself for your good points. You do have them, so don't be coy with yourself. The meanest thing I have to say to you, is age is not an attractive or even sensible thing to worry about. It isn't even your problem - you can't fix it (woe betide the person who worries about the unfixable) and anyone who wants to get with you will take care of it themselves (or not, most likely) - it is not yours to worry about and does not belong in the arena of relationships. I understand I'm hinting at the impossible here but it is unchangable. No list of complaints will change that fact.

Ultimately you're better seeing yourself in terms of attitude and approach than the surface fallacies that always shift such as age and, yes, looks. They are not irrelevant, but until they matter, they are mere trivia. Your approach and attitude - and that's as all encompassing as it sounds - is way more viable simply through to the fact you can work on them and control them. Arguably. :)

Two, re, friend zone. It's difficult to fix this allocation retroactively but not impossible. I do want you to respect and love the friends you get, as they should be BEATING the effort I am putting in here! :)

It is a pain in the arse if you want a friend though. I dearly hope I don't sound too Dude Bro, as I'm really not a cold person, but if I meet someone and I am definitely sure I'm interested I won't try to be their friend, I'll try to get a date. See, if the chemistry is there to ask out, it is sure as hell there for friendship, unless you're chasing the physical or something else shallow (not judging, simply how I find it works in real, fulfilling relationships of both types and when they overlap)

Since you've known this guy for years all you can do is weigh up your options: the friendship getting weird vs relationship.

I don't think it's possible to do casual dating with a friend. It tends to get intense right off the bat. You're infatuated so forget about body language, at this stage it is a misdirection - you're just getting yourself mired in confirmation bias. You'll see what you want or what you fear - ultimately it's killing time until you figure out what to do.

What's so bad about asking if they've thought of you that way? Ah, I can feel you bristle. Nobody likes that idea. I certainly don't. But.. I mean, there is NO WAY to ask someone out that isn't embarrassing! The cold aspect of the friend zone is you're risking something that may be dear to you. Um, I won't advocate drink or drugs, but they've woorked for people I know... I will advocate a more direct approach than analysing how they sit or whatever. At some point you have to ask something.

Arguably the friend zone problem even means you need to be fast and almost flip - I don't think your friendship should be interrupted too much, as it has its own worth.  It seems very reliant on the friendship. If you can joke, then do it in that direction. Just don't drag it out, OK? It is in nobody's interest to delay the inevitable - which may be rejection, best taken off like a plaster, or the rest of your life, best begun.

And friendships tend to heal, I find when I'm not being neurotic about the time it takes.

Finally. As much as you might feel rejected. It's nothing in the long run. Don't let yourself second-guess what hasn't even happened.

Me? I've ruined dates, I've been spurned, ghosted, turned up on drugs and berated for it, ignored, the lot. It doesn't matter. Certainly doesn't haunt me! I don't remember their faces or names. Yet I have people who would die for me, and vice versa. Rejection is at its worst and best a teacher. I can honestly say no rejection I've had has stood in the way of my most profound relationships.

If someone doesn't want you - you're one step closer to someone who will. I mean, nothing worse than finding out LATE. And you don't want to waste time, anyway.

If you decide a weird friendship or even ruined one is worth the chance - and most if not all of these fears are merely temporary unknowable blips - I don't think you'll regret anything if you go about it honestly with yourself. Nobody else should decide to play your hand for you.

I'm a bit odd in that every relationship with everyone is different, so my advice is weird, you might be able to parlay your banter (hate that word but yknow) into sounding out their thoughts. But when push comes to shove, honesty can always be respected, no duplicity, just ask. It really helps to be able to ask in a no pressure way. I hope this doesn't devalue it but plenty a truth is asked in jest. Or less cryptically, I don't recommend putting your heart on your sleeve every time you ask someone out (and I will brook no quarrel about gender roles, it's 2018, go get what you want!)

As for why people just want to be friends - people are fickle. I find it absolutely ludicrous I have heard the same complaint from a lingerie model I knew. It is a humanity issue, it is not for you to chalk up in the My Problems box. You don't control attraction and you don't control chemistry. All you control is when you act on them.

What does your gut say about your friend? I know it might hurt - and I'm really sorry if it does. :( But at least you can't kick yourself for not trying, and when it comes down to it, virtually nothing worth having in life happens the first time you try, or the second, or third.

Hopefully you can develop the sort of paradoxical approach of exploring this potential early without necessarily letting it hurt you enough to create fear, but one note on that: never ever, be afraid that you care. It simply means you are human. The very best people I know care "too much". Apathy is fuckin woeful, especially in romantic relationships, honestly. Permit it of yourself, if nothing else.

You'll be a happier person, and that's the most attractive thing you can offer. How you feel right now, is almost certainly not the truth about yourself. Sleep on it, love. Tomorrow is always another chance :)

[bgmnts]

Just get addicted to porn and live in your own bleak fantasy world like me!

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

Don't have any friends.

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

I did actually feel for you when reading your post Blackers, but yer man New Jack has said everything I wanted to say quite elegangty and eloquently, including the age thing, youngbuns.

[Isnt Anything]

christ, have any of you 'dont worry about your age' people heard of the menopause or read what she implied about wanting kids ?

hugs to you, BS.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

While difficult, I'd try to separate the two desires, 1) wanting to love and be loved and 2) wanting to grow something inside you, heave it from your birth canal and then boss it around and lie to it for 18 years.

The reason being is that you are more likely to make decisions that make getting 1) more difficult. This matters because in my view, and I think in your view too, that is the most important one of the two.

Do you want a partner to love you or do you want a partner to fuck sperm into you so a child has no choice but to love you?

[thenoise]

Yes, it's a man's priviledge not to have to worry about 'running out of time' when it comes to relationships/kids etc. My uncle became a dad for the first time at 63. Of course, his kid'll be a laughing stock when his wrinkly old Dad picks him up from school.

Internet dating sites are mostly free and full of people wanting proper commitment and relationships. If you are worried about your looks, at least you know people aren't going to contact you who don't like what they see, for whatever reason. And, as a woman you will rarely be expected to pay for the first date, unless you absolutely insist on it.

And if you are that desperate, there's plenty of eligible bachelors here on CAB...

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

And you can forget about applying to fucking dating sites. I'm not paying good money out of my limited budget to be told by computer how much of a failure I am.

Many sites are free and because the onus is on men to contact you - and they will contact you in their droves - you will be able to do the selecting. On dating sites it's the men who routinely feel like failures.

You state you are terrified and I appreciate why that is, but are you more terrified of the process or of ending up alone? That's what ultimately got me into dating.

[Truth-teller]

And if you are that desperate, there's plenty of eligible bachelors here on CAB...

Two different people tried chatting her up on here donkeys years ago, so no she is not grotesque at all, she just didn't seem interested in their advances.

Best of luck Black Ship.

[Pingers]

This is probably going to sound awfully trite, but having kids isn't the be-all and end-all. I have two kids, love the little buggers, but it's not like it would have been a disaster if they hadn't come along. I would be a lot less tired, way better off and probably mortgage free by now, so not living in terror of redundancy all the time, not feeling dreadful for having added more resource-suckers that the world doesn't need right now, and not anxious about what kind of shitshow I've brought them into - well kids, you fix this fucking mess, I'm off to die, see ya!

[im barry bethel]

Pretty much like Jack says really, oh and all those friends that are coupled up and paired off might not be quite so happy as they appear, so relax and take your time choosing who you want to share the next 40 odd years of your life with

[Buelligan]

Could I say something general?  Not aimed at you, Black Ship, but I think relevant to this subject.  This might sound pollyanna, I don't really care, it's something that needs to be thought about (and may help some, it's helped me).

Life is hard - even people we suppose to be privileged, because they're rich or beautiful or both, get miserable and hate themselves and their lives.  I think the people who do their lives best, are those that embrace and project optimism, confidence, positivity.



I don't mean this.  Not at all.  This is all about force, about not listening to yourself, about having a dishonest relationship with the world that starts right inside you.  I do not mean this.

I mean offering yourself the same compassion and encouragement you would offer to your dearest friend as often as you can.  And I mean being aware of the beauty and good that you encounter, no matter how small and marking it, acknowledging it, each time you get home without being murdered, say hallelujah to yourself.  It doesn't take long to build up a store of wins like this, those micro-celebrations build daily contentment, even happiness, eventually. 

Make a conscious decision to live life here and now.  Don't waste your precious Now fretting about future happiness.  Why do we humans always seem to concentrate on what might come instead of making what is our priority?  Look for the beauty, mark the goodness in the moment you are in, because, in truth, it is all you will ever have.

And, once you've begun to fix yourself, to find your bluebird, it'll make all the challenges we all face, easier.  It makes the fear slink off into the dark.  It shows on your face.  And that makes you beautiful.

IMO, we cannot fix the loss and tragedy of life but we can fix our approach, our reaction and our ability to live on, live every moment of our lives, positively. 

I know this will make some angry (and I'm sorry for that).  Big hugs to you, Black Ship.

And if you want this man, Black Ship, tell him.  If he doesn't want you, you'll save yourself a whole lot of time and that's a reason to be cheerful if ever I heard one.  :)

[Noonling]

Am I turning into some kind of "incel" here, because that would give me just another reason to hate myself.

Nah, I've worried that about myself sometimes but I realised the main difference is that incels blame the rest of the world rather than look inwards. They have rage towards others, rather than just a dash of self pity or doubt. If you haven't thought about throwing acid into successful people's faces then you aren't there yet.

_{Also the modern incel movement doesn't believe women can even be incels.}

And if you want this man, Black Ship, tell him.  If he doesn't want you, you'll save yourself a whole lot of time and that's a reason to be cheerful if ever I heard one.  :)

Yeah, I'd recommend getting it out of the way. I did that recently with a friend - thankfully I knew our friendship wouldn't really change, and I was also realistic that I'd probably get rejected.

[Pijlstaart]

I like the sound of the first guy, do a hugh grant on him, comedically fall over and grab a handful of his drumlins as you go down. Maybe invite him round to watch something frivolous, yet sexy, like desperate scousewives or jenny eclair squats, make your move when he's beet red and frothing. Take a couple of potshots, I'd say, I am rooting for you.

Thing I would say is, online dating doesn't play out how you'd expect. Father is a dreadful man who wears short-sleeved button-up shirts, he has a grand total of 5 anecdotes on constant repeat, and he's got the rule of the roost, bounding between women, rich women even, normal well-adjusted women. He never opens the windows in his house, it is very dusty, and he has a wart on his upper lip and he can't swim. Loads of women. Probably better to give it a shot now rather than in 30 years time, I'd say. Plenty of free dating sites, notably Omegle, but there are loads.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Nah, I've worried that about myself sometimes but I realised the main difference is that incels blame the rest of the world rather than look inwards.

The most obvious parodied "incels" seem to but should that be the fair median average?

It's quite likely they've looked inwards, outwards and all over for reasons before joining a community with a tendency to rationalise what is an intensely irrational situation: being on a planet of billions of people and not receiving love from anyone of them.

It is an incredibly miserable situation for someone to find themselves in but the eagerness of others to hold onto the more outlandish core-element behaviour makes me suspicious of a tendency towards a pack-mentality, which will only alienate people who require patience and help.

[Buelligan]

Being honest though Shoulders, I wonder if they sometimes think about what relationships are for most people. 

There is a reason why divorce is popular and figures for it seem to be ever-rising and people joke frequently about sexless marriage. 

I think many humans tend to pretend that being married or in a permanent relationship with someone is some kind of happy-ever-after (and this may feed incels feeling of being cheated).  If they were married, I expect a fair few would be complaining about not being understood or not getting enough/any sex. 

Some, maybe many, people have a tendency to look for things to complain about.

[Black Ship]

Two different people tried chatting her up on here donkeys years ago, so no she is not grotesque at all, she just didn't seem interested in their advances.

Who? What? When? First I heard of this!

[manticore]

I find it difficult to know what's happening here. Black Ship, from some of the posts I've read by you over the years my overwhelming impression is of an extremely emotionally open and honest person, and someone who I would trust in real life, so albeit that I don't actually know you IRL I tend to share your bemusement at your situation.

I hope this doesn't sound sycophantic. It's just a  fact that I've been affected by things you've written on this board, including your OP here, so it pains me slightly that I don't know what to say to help. Is there anyone in your life who gives you counsel? If so, what sort of things do they say?

I mean you've read the whole of Finnegans Wake for Christ's sake, right to the end. Admittedly you didn't actually enjoy it, but still there's got to be someone who would be beguiled by that alone.

[mothman]

Given how close I must have come to falling into the "dying alone, the last of my line" camp, I feel bad for people who haven't found their lobster (but want to). I don't think I can really offer any advice though, because I really don't know what I did to turn things around. I recall making a conscious decision to STOP looking, to stop even thinking about it. I don't know how successful I was at doing that, but when I did go out on a work social one night in 2001, I do know the last thing I expected was for anything romantic to come of the evening. I just thought I'd hook up with my friends and much beverages would be consumed. Seventeen and a half years later, me and the senior partner's secretary (she had no idea who I was initially, so spent a lot of time wondering why she was getting all the funny looks for, it transpired, snogging the rude weirdo from IT) are still together.

[Black Ship]

I hate to add to my woes right now since I don't want to overload everyone's compassion circuits, but my mother got super drunk tonight. She hurt her back a while ago, and so because of this and the bad weather she can't do the garden like she likes to. So she turns to alcohol. She hasn't got this drunk since about 3 years ago, around the time of the house fire. During dinner I infer that she's drunk and then she starts an arguement about religion, which is weird because we are both quite secular. Upshot is the argument escalates to the point, she gets out of chair and attempt to smack the shit of me, really hard. I defend myself, holding her hands back but a blow lands right on the side of my head and I now have a bad headache, like she gave me mild concussion or something. I storm upstairs. Five minutes later she's as meek as a lamb asking me for a hot water bottle for her back.

She's asleep now. I dread to think what she is going to be like in the morning. She can be so vicious when she's had a few drinks. I hate seeing her like this.

This is probably one of the reasons I want to be settled in a relationship, albeit kind of selfish one: so I can get away from her.

[Ryan Gosling]

I heard you were talking about how to stop being Friend Zoned so I came as quick as I could, ask away!

[Chairman Bodog]

The less you care for validation, the more they seek it. This isn't a gendered issue. This is a western issue for young headless dumplings.

[checkoutgirl]

Who's that pic of Buelligan?

[pancreas]

Maybe you're too clean. Stop showering. Get some pheromones out there. Some will hate you, loathe your rancid fumes, call you Turdy McStinkhausen—but others will follow you around like the Pied Piper of Hamelin. You will wave your sweaty pits and norks in the breeze and they will dance merrily to your funky bouquet.

[sevendaughters]

Who's that pic of Buelligan?

it's thingy in American Beauty, Anette Benning?

[royce coolidge]

Really feel for you Black Ship,that's a bloody rotten thing for your Mum to do to you. Next time she is sober tell her that behaviour is unacceptable and if she can't drink without getting aggressive then she should stop drinking at all.
Don't give her a pass because she is elderly and your Mum,you are not her emotional or physical punchbag for her frustrations.
As for your love life don't be scared to show this bloke that you "like" him,many men are happy if the woman takes a little control.
That's probably all a bit trite but both of your posts moved me,you deserve a lot better.

[checkoutgirl]

it's thingy in American Beauty, Anette Benning?

Ah, my guess was Catherine Deneuve.

[Darles Chickens]

It's Mia Farrow!

[Icehaven]

It's Mia Farrow!

No not the profile pic, they mean the picture posted above.