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Extinction Rebellion

Started by MoonDust, November 17, 2018, 10:52:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Endicott

Quote from: phes on November 21, 2018, 07:32:24 PM
The cost of auto ownership and operation is currently artificially low.

What? Show your working. What would a sensible price be?

phes

#121
Quote from: Endicott on November 22, 2018, 06:28:56 PM
What? Show your working. What would a sensible price be?

I'm not going to argue about what a sensible or fair price would be, but a price that covered the true cost would be one that covered the enormous environmental, financial, social and health burden caused by running such a mode of transport so inefficiently and harmfully. That might include costs

Noise pollution
Air pollution
Accidents and all associated burdens to individual and society
Physical environmental destruction
Climate change
Soil pollution
Water pollution
Destruction of community cohesion
Increase in cost of land and property purchase/development caused by parking and operational requirements
Economic loss through congestion
Increased cost of goods to subsidise free parking
Decrease in wages to subsidise free parking
Increased cost and time of travel caused by sprawl

You could just keep going. The price of personal driving doesn't in any way reflect the cost and that cost is born by all.

Paul Calf

Tonight I took the train from Manchester to the Midlands, a distance of about 75 miles. It took 4 hours. The first train from Manchester to Sheffield was so crowded that first class was declassified and seat reservations were cancelled throughout the train. It was late and I missed my connection.

On arrival at my home station, I had to get a lift because the station is three miles from where I live and there's no bus service.

Including the taxi to Manchester Piccadilly (over a mile from my place of work) the trip cost over £60.

Next week I'm driving.

garbed_attic

Not wholly sure about the tactic of swarming - certainly isn't going to get the majority of the public on-side, but I suppose if there is lost productivity, the government will start to be concerned...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/avoid-londons-roads-for-days-police-tell-motorists-amid-swarming-climate-protests-a3996651.html

QuoteWarmer summers and flooding Bangladesh ...... Mmm, I'm off to buy some more spray cans.

QuoteCan motorists sue the police for not removing these protesters from the road ?

QuoteJust how useless and ineffective do you have to be that this is the best thing you can think of to make a meaningful difference to climate change? Morons.

Quoteeco terrorists bringing the capital to a standstill is a crime if the useless police dont deal with them then the affected motorists will have no choice but take these freaks on


Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 22, 2018, 08:10:23 PM
Tonight I took the train from Manchester to the Midlands, a distance of about 75 miles. It took 4 hours. The first train from Manchester to Sheffield was so crowded that first class was declassified and seat reservations were cancelled throughout the train. It was late and I missed my connection.

On arrival at my home station, I had to get a lift because the station is three miles from where I live and there's no bus service.

Including the taxi to Manchester Piccadilly (over a mile from my place of work) the trip cost over £60.

Next week I'm driving.

Maybe the problem is driving's too painless?




phes

Christ this is painful

Quote from: phes on November 22, 2018, 12:30:06 AM
The most effective way we know is to disincentivise auto use and provide a reliable alternative.

People will drive regardless of public transport improvements. The reason we've failed in most cases to reduce congestion is because we haven't disincentivised driving

garbed_attic

Another big protest planned for Sat for those able to come!

Ferris

Quote from: Noonling on November 22, 2018, 02:22:08 PM
Hives.

Bee hives.

Humans should live in bee hive like structure where each of the six hexagon nearby have all the amenities you need (and their nearby hexagons contain the resources for amenities) and you only live there if you work in those hexagons. Then no need for cars OR public transport.

Hey guys, I just solved global warming.

Oh, also no international business any more but hey ho.

I live in an apartment building - this is essentially how I live already. WHAT'S EVERYONE ELSE'S EXCUSE?

Als re: having kids - Ferris Jr is due in January. Years of stockpiling firearms and krugerrands will mean he will be the king of the new society that is forged in the coming Resource Wars. I'd hate to be the rest of you once he takes over.

manticore

Quote from: gout_pony on November 22, 2018, 08:29:13 PM
Not wholly sure about the tactic of swarming - certainly isn't going to get the majority of the public on-side, but I suppose if there is lost productivity, the government will start to be concerned...

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/avoid-londons-roads-for-days-police-tell-motorists-amid-swarming-climate-protests-a3996651.html

I think the essence of it is to keep the issue in people's consciousness, force the BBC and the rest of the media to keep talking about it. This catastrophe should be in every single news programme every day, which seems to be beginning to happen and must be sustained. It must be made a running theme so none of the political parties can put forward a general policy statement without the ecology being the central theme.

Apart from the threat of nuclear annihilation it's the greatest emergency in the history of humanity after all, there should be disruption in the streets and people must not be allowed to put the thing aside and live in a state of denial and self-delusion. Reality must break in.

Lemming

This is probably a stupid question, but what if an ambulance needs to get through?

If they ever do any protests up here in Leeds, anyway, I'll try to support them.

Paul Calf

Quote from: phes on November 22, 2018, 08:50:09 PM
Christ this is painful

People will drive regardless of public transport improvements. The reason we've failed in most cases to reduce congestion is because we haven't disincentivised driving

Can you actually read? Am I posting in Sanskrit?

phes

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 05:01:34 AM
Can you actually read? Am I posting in Sanskrit?

It was a response to the previous post.

Yes I read your post. I also own a car because the rail system in the regions you're talking about is so often hopeless and too expensive. I'm not sure what the wider point is

Paul Calf


Paul Calf

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on November 22, 2018, 08:31:32 PM
Maybe the problem is driving's too painless?





Not in fucking Manchester it isn't.

Blumf

Yeah! Everybody should get out of their cars and use public transport. You've got regular buses and the tube, and.... what do you mean 'what about outside of London'?

Meanwhile...


Fambo Number Mive

I imagine the government cuts to council bus subsidies haven't helped, although I accept that improving public transport, essential as it is, isn't the only thing we need to do to get people out of cars. And I know that for a lot of people the car is the only alternative.

In related news, concern over China backing more coal projects: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46310807

Does environmental campaigning need to happen at a more global level?

Endicott

Quote from: phes on November 22, 2018, 08:50:09 PM
People will drive regardless of public transport improvements. The reason we've failed in most cases to reduce congestion is because we haven't disincentivised driving

I think it's this point I specifically disagree with . If I lived in Spain I could take advantage of the cheap hourly coach service between towns, and cheap local mini-buses running even through cobbled narrow streets every 10 min. No way would I bother with a car. At the very least I'd cut down my car usage considerably.

Is there a different ethos in this country? Everyone seems to get driven to school, which didn't happen 40 years ago. 40 years ago kids living in the sticks had to use the bus service, but then it was a better service back then.

Buelligan

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 22, 2018, 08:10:23 PM
Tonight I took the train from Manchester to the Midlands, a distance of about 75 miles. It took 4 hours. The first train from Manchester to Sheffield was so crowded that first class was declassified and seat reservations were cancelled throughout the train. It was late and I missed my connection.

On arrival at my home station, I had to get a lift because the station is three miles from where I live and there's no bus service.

Including the taxi to Manchester Piccadilly (over a mile from my place of work) the trip cost over £60.

Next week I'm driving.

This is terrible, unless you have a mobility problem, you should be walking this.  And we wonder why obesity is a problem (along with  climate change).  Get those little leggies moving Paul, it will probably delay you a bit, work it into your schedule, because it will also delay your dying day and maybe, mine.

phes

#138
Quote from: Endicott on November 23, 2018, 11:53:56 AM
I think it's this point I specifically disagree with . If I lived in Spain I could take advantage of the cheap hourly coach service between towns, and cheap local mini-buses running even through cobbled narrow streets every 10 min. No way would I bother with a car. At the very least I'd cut down my car usage considerably.


Yeah I am simplifying and generalising massively. On an individual level people will respond when you improve public transportation e.g. generalising again but for every 10% reduction in bus fares we see about a 3% increase in ridership, but this only results in a reduction in car use of about 0.5%, and that usually rebounds after an initial surge. 0.5% decrease is quite significant when it comes to alleviating congestion, unfortunately when you manage to shift drivers from the road and onto PT one of the effects is that by reducing congestion you decrease auto travel time and cost and ultimately improve the driving experience. Meaning other people shift back to car use, existing drivers drive more frequently and further and driving becomes more appealing to people to people considering their options. Which is why disincentivising driving is usually key to sustaining shifts from cars to PT. One of the reasons PT is so successful in major urban centres is because driving is now, as mentioned re. MCR, a fucking nightmare. In part because of congestion but also because of the way we've stripped away almost all free parking, a great deal of the on-street parking and the cost of parking a car off-street has risen to levels that many people find unacceptable (go below the line on any 'death of the high street' BBC article and car parking is one of those subjects that makes people absolutely furious).

QuoteIs there a different ethos in this country? Everyone seems to get driven to school, which didn't happen 40 years ago. 40 years ago kids living in the sticks had to use the bus service, but then it was a better service back then.

Parents massively overestimate the danger of walking to and from transport links or to school (reality is that parents often drop their kids in the most dangerous zones, which many contribute to by idling or parking with complete disregard for safety)

Kids don't know their town/city like they used to because they play out less and are transported by car rather than foot or cycle, so they're unable to develop mental maps of their area with any great detail, including knowing how to get to where their classmates live and what the associated dangers are. Parents know this.

Speed, volume, noise on roads all impact connections people make in local communities, People are less likely to know others living nearby and across busy roads, so in areas now dominated by infrastructure/traffic people just don't know each other and the 'walk to school' doesn't exist in the same way that it did unless it's part of a formal or informal adult-led initiative of some kind

Low income neighborhoods are often poorly served by PT and further from destinations. The people who live there are usually also fatter, unhealthier, less active and more time-poor

Basically distance, perception of crime and danger and the socially destructive effects of infrastructure and traffic has increased the use of autos to get kids to school and it all becomes one horrible feedback loop that re-enforces that.

Paul Calf

Quote from: Buelligan on November 23, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
This is terrible, unless you have a mobility problem, you should be walking this.  And we wonder why obesity is a problem (along with  climate change).  Get those little leggies moving Paul, it will probably delay you a bit, work it into your schedule, because it will also delay your dying day and maybe, mine.

I had a 30kg suitcase and an hourly train. I spend the week away from my family so every hour I'm pissing about lugging a suitcase over potholed pavements is an hour out of the only time I have with them. So no, I will not.

Buelligan

Get a wheely case if it's too heavy and think of all the hours and days, maybe even years, you'll save on the other end.

phes

I would've wheeled that case right over the Peak District along the Snake Pass and felt seriously fucking Zen when I got home



Come on Paul

Paul Calf

Quote from: Buelligan on November 23, 2018, 12:55:28 PM
Get a wheely case if it's too heavy and think of all the hours and days, maybe even years, you'll save on the other end.

Why don't you find yourself a nice boyfriend?

Sin Agog

Maybe her ideal man is in bits and pieces wrapped in cellophane inside your suitcase?

Chollis

Oh come on Paul you fat fuck

Neville Chamberlain

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
I had a 30kg suitcase and an hourly train. I spend the week away from my family so every hour I'm pissing about lugging a suitcase over potholed pavements is an hour out of the only time I have with them. So no, I will not.

Worst excuse ever. Start walking at midnight if you have to.

Paul Calf

How did this thread become the Unwanted Advice Recycle Bin?

Sin Agog

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 23, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
How did this thread become the Unwanted Advice Recycle Bin?

At least we're recycling something.

Neville Chamberlain

How else do you destroy the planet, Paul?

Captain Z

You shouldn't even need a suitcase, you can just make the stuff you need at your destination out of things the everyday folk leave behind.