Topic: Extinction Rebellion

[Bizarro Mark Bosnich]

This thread by Peter Kalmus (in reply to Neil Gaiman) is really on-point and much of the top-voted comments are interesting to boot:
https://twitter.com/ClimateHuman/status/1185666446262554624

After the amount of comments I've read calling for more violence against XR the last few days and general hatred of the movement by the majority, I've started to think most people prefer the idea of looking after their own - whether that means in the future having to get a gun and scavenge etc. - rather than endure system change that feels forced upon them. Of course, it's a bunch of neoliberal elites that have succeeded in so many internalising this libertarian ethos. It's grim that anyone thinks that Nigel Farage or Brendan O'Neill is really on the side of anyone but themselves... but maybe it's just that - most people don't believe that anyone is anything other than selfish, so they'd rather listen to those who are explicitly and flagrantly selfish than well-meaning hypocrites.

I think that's spot on, sadly. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would like to have faith in good intentions but feel they've been duped far too many times by empty rhetoric and would rather listen to self-serving grifters who 'speak their mind' than ever get fooled again. That's not to say I think they're entirely wrong for feeling that way. Historically, we have sorely lacked the right role models for radical change: individuals and groups who promise much and don't end up gravitating towards the status quo or violent authoritarianism once they've achieved power and influence. On the other hand, I think there's also an element of people feeling that if they can't see role models they can trust to enact radical change within their lifetime (or while they're still young enough to be able to live a long time through it) then they don't see the point in getting involved.

[Paul Calf]

My sister once said, in justifying her decision to vote Tory, “If they’re already rich they’re less likely to be corrupt because they don’t need the money,” ignoring the question of how they got rich in the first place and the likelihood of someone saying “I have enough money now”.

[gout_pony]

Only tribalism isn't the result of the 'libertarian ethos' (whatever that is), is it? It's the result of instincts as old as the flint axe Buelligers will be brandishing and swinging at the first sniff of a pure-pedigree elite, come the season finale of our civilisation. Once again, half the trouble with enacting change, getting people to inspect their motives, individuate rather than fulminate, etc. is a vocal minority who want to politicise this head-on collision with our future at every turn.

But this collision is already bound up with politics, disproportionately affecting some groups and not others. Yes, ultimately the end state is a great leveller, but the experience of descent certainly won't be and isn't already. I think XR's "anti-politics" position is part of what had led to tone-deaf statements and blinkered actions like getting on the roof of the Tube in one of the areas of London far more badly impacted by air pollution than the rural counties where a lot of the protesters come from (including me - though Ipswich is pretty bad for air pollution itself). The movement can't just hand-wave away politics, not even much maligned identity politics.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Not when the people profiting off harming the environment are the same people profiting off of inequality, no.

[ZoyzaSorris]

My sister once said, in justifying her decision to vote Tory, “If they’re already rich they’re less likely to be corrupt because they don’t need the money,” ignoring the question of how they got rich in the first place and the likelihood of someone saying “I have enough money now”.

I hope it’s not rude for me to say that your sister sounds like an exceedingly silly woman.

[Buelligan]

Paul has spoken of her before and I've thought that very thought.  Perhaps not that very thought, your thought was probably more well-mannered and better brought up.

[Paul Calf]

Yeah. She has/had potentially life threatening asthma and would literally be dead now if it hadn’t been for the NHS. Also, she works in social care supporting vulnerable adults.

We’ve been through it a thousand times.

[BlodwynPig]

Maybe send the planet to her clinic (?) as her next patient

[Buelligan]

Something to read before you buy your next piece of new furniture.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50094830

[Kryton]

You are a threat to humanity and need to start thinking about your priorities

Amazing. Not the huge corporations destroying the world or the greedy bosses exploiting the workers or using up all the non-renewable resources. Not the poachers and lobbyists and fracking machines or Oil barons.Not the arsonists in the amazon or the CEO's of weapon companies or the military using radioactive weapons.
But me.

How did you know Blodwyn? Was it when i forgot to put my recycling out for a week? Or when I accidentally dropped some rubbish when I was aiming for the bin and it blew into the road?

(p.s thanks for the new motto for underneath my avatar).

[BlodwynPig]

Amazing. Not the huge corporations destroying the world or the greedy bosses exploiting the workers or using up all the non-renewable resources. Not the poachers and lobbyists and fracking machines or Oil barons.Not the arsonists in the amazon or the CEO's of weapon companies or the military using radioactive weapons.
But me.

How did you know Blodwyn? Was it when i forgot to put my recycling out for a week? Or when I accidentally dropped some rubbish when I was aiming for the bin and it blew into the road?

(p.s thanks for the new motto for underneath my avatar).

If you hadn't notice, we all are the biggest threat. You're not so special (a new motto).

[Kryton]

If you hadn't notice, we all are the biggest threat. You're not so special (a new motto).

Alright better. Thank you.

I agree we should all be doing more. My only disagreement was the train incident. Hopefully XR will find more creative ways of raising these issues which will result in people not getting hurt (on either side of the debate).
Sorry for being sarcastic in my previous post.

[Paul Calf]

Very fine people on either side, I'm sure you'll agree.

'The train incident' was an incident where a non-violent protestor was injured by an enraged mob, one of whom pulled him from the top of an 8ft-high tube train into a morass of people who then proceeded to kick and punch him.

I reiterate: if your 'problem' with this incident can't be summarised as 'Holy fuck, that sort of mob justice has no place at all in society and people who react in that way to being delayed slightly on their way to work should be treated as the violent criminals they are', then there is something fundamentally wrong with the way you see the world.

[Buelligan]

You'll be happy to know that the "train incident" didn't really happen.  Or, if it did, it happened in two places at the same moment.  I shall explain.

As you might remember, from this thread, I have a rather bold XR logo (hand made) on my front door.  I assume, because of my lovely sign, today, I was accosted by an outraged villager, who told me that they'd seen that very same thing, man on underground train roof attacking person, innocent commuters only feeding their kids but... it took place on the Paris metro.  What do you think of that?  Interesting that it's out there on the internet causing alarm for law-abiding French citizens who only want to feed their monkeys.

[Paul Calf]

Rage-bait to whip up the masses then? Shit, that's terrifying.

[Buelligan]

I think it's quite interesting.  I don't know how he saw it, I'm guessing a Facebook thing, I should've asked but I was eager not to extend the conversation to the point where I felt driven to invite him indoors to inspect my chest freezer (I don't really have a chest freezer).

I asked him about the gilets jaunes, the fact that they too have regularly and indiscriminately, halted traffic across France for months and months to a far, far, greater extent than any piddling XR manifestation seen anywhere in the world so far - how did/does he feel about them?  Well, they need to hold Macron to his promises about fuel tax - and there you have it.  When the water wars start or whatever, of course these lads will be the first to wonder why nothing was done.

[BlodwynPig]

Is he sleeping in your chest freezer now? what a blind ignorant cunt scum. *I don't know him, but I know him

[Buelligan]

Heheh, yes.  Along with all the others.

[Blumf]

It's interesting, because I think it highlights a problem XR (and the wider green movement) will have: For the past few decades we've seen governments bumping up taxes on fuels using environmental concerns as the excuse (e.g. the Fuel Price Escalator in the UK). However, these taxes have not gone into creating low carbon alternatives, public transport, etc.

So, we now have a situation where the public at large are primed to see anything that'll be used to curtail their use of personal transport as what it has been up to now - regressive taxation.

On the one hand, we do need these nudges to push the world away from carbon, but on the other, people are entirely justified in seeing these things as cynical cash grabs that just negatively effect their everyday life with no green benefit. I can see that being the source of boo XR/yay GJ, dichotomy.

tl;dr Government bullshitters have fucked us all.

[BlodwynPig]

Heheh, yes.  Along with all the others.

"We can all find solace in the depths of Buelligan's chest freezer"

[gout_pony]

I agree with about 75% of this:
https://ecohustler.com/culture/3-challenges-for-extinction-rebellion/

I think it overestimates the effectiveness of Greenpeace however (certainly in terms of suggesting that the general public largely support them) and conflates British and American politics.

[Kryton]

Very fine people on either side, I'm sure you'll agree.

'The train incident' was an incident where a non-violent protestor was injured by an enraged mob, one of whom pulled him from the top of an 8ft-high tube train into a morass of people who then proceeded to kick and punch him.

I reiterate: if your 'problem' with this incident can't be summarised as 'Holy fuck, that sort of mob justice has no place at all in society and people who react in that way to being delayed slightly on their way to work should be treated as the violent criminals they are', then there is something fundamentally wrong with the way you see the world.

Christ Paul do you love going round in circles. You seem to think I support the mob violence, when in actual fact I'm saying XR are hurting themselves by doing those disruptive tactics that affect people's day to day lives. By kicking people in their faces and disrupting the average Joe and endangering themselves by climbing on trains they're only hurting their own cause.

Should they have been up there? - No.
Should they have been kicking people in the face trying to remove them from the train - No.
Should the crowd have attacked him? - No.

Being annoyed at this petty disruption is in no way shape or form being pro-violence. I'm merely saying that XR aren't doing themselves any favours with this kind of thing and to reiterate my point they should be finding better, more creative ways that aren't pissing off the general public by doing so.

It's all about common cause. I'm beginning to think you just want to argue with me, rather than think about anything logically.

NOBODY HERE IS ENCOURAGING MOB VIOLENCE.

But some of us think this particular action (disrupting public transport and endangering themselves, winding up the masses and discrediting XR by doing so) isn't particularly a good form of action. You can sneer if you want. It's only my opinion. I'm not promoting violence no matter how many attempts you try and frame me into doing so.

I hope this is clearer. I'm trying to be polite and engage in the discussion. I'm not trying to annoy you or anyone else. So can you PLEASE stop with this now?

[Kryton]

That said I'm curious to see what they've been up to for the last few days. I've been busy with family/work stuff so I've not been paying much attention. If anyone has some handy links to read it'd be most appreciated.

Thanks.

[Buelligan]

I think that humans are a mixed bag.  Some marvellous fuckers and some truly abysmal self-serving cunts.  I think, sadly, that capitalism is designed by cunts to promote themselves.  Selfish greedy cunts are the demographic our culture promotes and rewards above all other sectors. 

Because of this, we will continue to destroy our planet and people will continue to pretend that just one more cheeky choccy isn't going to break the bank.  Even though we know this isn't true.  Even though we're surrounded with evidence that this is a lie.

Short of a global plague or something that cuts out our ability to screw our environment from under us, I honestly believe we are fucked but I also believe we must do whatever we can, whatever is in our power, to change that.  Even if it's a complete waste of our lives and thankless to boot.

Concentrating on the messenger, ignoring the message, is simply another symptom of denial.

[Kryton]

Short of a global plague or something that cuts out our ability to screw our environment from under us, I honestly believe we are fucked but I also believe we must do whatever we can, whatever is in our power, to change that.  Even if it's a complete waste of our lives and thankless to boot.

https://environment-review.yale.edu/too-little-too-late-carbon-emissions-and-point-no-return


The point of no return is a terrifying thing. But a lot of Scientists believe even this 2 degrees stop point warning is optimistic. We may already be on the very cusp. Right now, we may have already reached the point of irreversible change.

How late is too late for policies to have a reasonable likelihood of achieving the Paris Agreement’s 2 degree goal in 2100? Assuming a moderate mitigation strategy, a 2 degree warming threshold, and accepting a 67% likelihood of remaining below the threshold, the Point of No Return will arrive in the year 2035. If removal of greenhouse gases from the atmosphere is strong, the Point of No Return gets delayed to 2042. With the same assumptions but a 1.5 degree warming threshold, the Point of No Return has already passed. Greenhouse gas removal, if implemented immediately, might push the Point of No Return to 2026. For a more aggressive (fast) mitigation strategy, the Points of No Return, assuming no greenhouse gases are removed from the atmosphere, will arrive in 2027 and 2045 respectively for the 1.5 degree and 2 degree targets

I'm not trying to be negative here, but is it a case of most people just feeling that whatever small changes they make right now is utterly pointless? It's not the point I'm making, but I'm trying to figure out where the apathy comes from? Is it largely ignorance? Or perhaps people just feel helpless already? Crushed between recession, brexit, poverty and the feeling of being unable to change much. Even going vegetarian and recycling everything, not enough people will do it. It's the big companies that need to cut their emissions isn't it? But even that has been forecasted to have minimal impact with the observable patterns happening right now. It's worrying.



https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/02/world-verge-climate-catastophe

One example was provided last week by a UN report that revealed attempts to ensure fossil fuel emissions peak by 2020 will fail. Indeed the target will not even be reached by 2030. Another, by the World Meteorological Organization, said the past four years had been the warmest on record and warned that global temperatures could easily rise by 3-5C by 2100, well above that sought-after goal of 1.5C. The UK will not be exempt either. The Met Office said summer temperatures could now be 5.4C hotter by 2070.

[Buelligan]

I don't expect big polluters to stop wrecking the planet before I do.  Get the message out, hope they listen but I'm not waiting.  I know what's wrong, I'm in charge of me, so that's what I'm going to change first. 

Concentrating on the wrongness of others can be a useful excuse for continuing ones own.  And it is just an excuse.

[Kryton]

I don't expect big polluters to stop wrecking the planet before I do.  Get the message out, hope they listen but I'm not waiting.  I know what's wrong, I'm in charge of me, so that's what I'm going to change first. 

Concentrating on the wrongness of others can be a useful excuse for continuing ones own.  And it is just an excuse.

Is it though? Even if my whole street, nay town begins a huge recycling scheme, dredges out the local canals, all turn vegetarian, all write to our local MP and avoid using micro-plastics. How does that fix the damaged ecosystems in the ocean? How does that prevent coastal cities from flooding when the ice caps raise the sea levels? How does that provide enough weight to fix the carbon levels and greenhouse effect?

I'm not being defeatist here, but as much as the little people can make small changes, we ideally need HUGE changes from the top down. Changing attitudes, raising awareness and recycling is all well and good, but we should have been doing this fifty years ago.

Sorry if I sound negative, I'm looking for answers not shitting on your views.

[Buelligan]

How does giving up smoking stop you from passive smoking?  How does not having a house slave bring an end to slavery? 

The answer is that everything comes down to individual choices, this is why things change or stay the same.  Taking responsibility for ones own choices and making good ones, that is how to wear down a mountain with soft breath.

When people buy a lovely little table from Ikea are they thinking is this table worth the end of the last primeval forests in Europe or are they thinking it only costs £24.99?  That's individual choice, man.  Millions of individual choices.

[Paul Calf]

And attempting to force people into making choices that make their lives harder and worse while they see others gleefully pillage the planet for their wealth is a non-starter and will only drastically increase the imbalance of power and wealth.

If you're offering dictatorship, all the other guy has to do is offer dictatorship with toys to win the battle.

[Buelligan]

Was there an offer of dictatorship (no toys), didn't catch it.

Oppressive pink octopodes notwithstanding.