Topic: Extinction Rebellion

[Paul Calf]

How else are people going to give up their old, destructive ways and embrace a new way of life while their corporate overlords continue to enrich themselves on the very things they've sacrificed their quality of life to protect? At some point there will be an element of compulsion.

[Buelligan]

I compel myself.  I am imprisoned in a ruthless dictatorship of one. 

[Paul Calf]

Individualism will definitely get us out of this.

[Buelligan]

It's not individualism is it.  Individualism is when people do the fuck what they want and fuck everyone else.  This is making responsible choices for yourself with the welfare of everyone at heart.   Not the same at all and you knows it.

[Paul Calf]

But we cannot solve this problem with individual activism. At some point, it will become necessary to impel people to take courses of action and inhabit lifestyles that they do not wish to take or inhabit.

What do you do with those people? The refusal to face this question is a genuine worry because at best, XR do not know what to do with them and at worst, they know but can't say.

[chveik]

do you want us to say ecofascism?

[Paul Calf]

No. I want to know whether the question has been answered. Snarky, smart, question-avoiding bullshit kind of underlines the point don't you think?

[chveik]

No. I want to know whether the question has been answered. Snarky, smart, question-avoiding bullshit kind of underlines the point don't you think?

it's a difficult question and I don't think anyone has the answer.

[chveik]

people don't "naturally" wish to inhabit the capitalist system, it's been forced unto them. and now they think it is what's best for them.

[Buelligan]

But we cannot solve this problem with individual activism. At some point, it will become necessary to impel people to take courses of action and inhabit lifestyles that they do not wish to take or inhabit.

What do you do with those people? The refusal to face this question is a genuine worry because at best, XR do not know what to do with them and at worst, they know but can't say.

They can say.  They've said that they see their role as messenger, reminding us all of the truth under our noses, that if we continue to despoil our home planet, we will all die.  They are not here to offer or impose solutions. 

If you read their website, you'll see that they advocate citizens assemblies who will work together to find solutions.  I think you really need to do a bit of research yourself, rather than imagining whatever weird threatening scenario floats your particular boat and projecting it onto XR.  Read the site, take a look at the FAQs and XR's demands there are plenty of interviews on Youtube and so on.

[Paul Calf]

I’ve read them. At no point do they deal with the question of what to do with dissenters, or the fact that not all citizens’ assemblies will share their priorities.

[NJ Uncut]

I agree we should all be doing more. My only disagreement was the train incident. Hopefully XR will find more creative ways of raising these issues which will result in people not getting hurt (on either side of the debate).

If the internal comms are anything to go by (I did repost em the other night!) XR sort of nicely-disagreed with that too.

I don't expect them to disrupt the public (directly?) any more if the tone of the comms is anything to go by and seems they were disobeyed about the train bollocks

Whatever your thoughts on the action, this footage was highly distressing to watch - and must have been much more so for anyone present in person.

It’s important to acknowledge that the distress did not start with the footage: this action had been announced on Tuesday, and was received with overwhelming opposition and consternation from those in our movement, both regarding the nature, location, and timing of the action. This concern was communicated to the planners of the action – a very small group, which did not participate in ‘national level’ Rebellion decision-making bodies. They issued this statement in response .

Some of those involved in the planning, on hearing the feedback, chose to step back from the action; but some of those involved continued and ultimately carried it out.

Extinction Rebellion Rebel Rebels

[chveik]

I’ve read them. At no point do they deal with the question of what to do with dissenters, or the fact that not all citizens’ assemblies will share their priorities.

it's not really their place to say, their goal isn't to seize power.

[Buelligan]

I’ve read them. At no point do they deal with the question of what to do with dissenters, or the fact that not all citizens’ assemblies will share their priorities.

They say that they're not offering solutions, they're putting forward the idea that citizen's assemblies will arrive at solutions.  Their point being that we, XR, are a wide coalition, open to everyone who shares our principles and values, aiming to encourage people to wake up to the threat to the planet and push for things like citizen's assemblies to find solutions that will save us all. 

There is no issue of dissent because nothing is being imposed by XR, if you've read the site you must know that, if you know that, I don't understand why you're suggesting this.  It's completely bizarre.

ETA  I'd also add, having re-read your post that I'm not convinced you understand what they mean by citizen's assemblies either.

[NJ Uncut]

XR’s current organising ethos is that anyone can carry out any action in the name of XR, provided it doesn’t conflict with our ten principles and values. Following two similarly controversial proposals in April and over summer, the process for ‘national’ actions has been revised such that proposals must pass through scrutiny from other teams before going ahead.

[Buelligan]

There's a piece at the beginning here, with Rupert Read speaking about citizen's assemblies and other issues already raised in this thread.

[QDRPHNC]

Assuming the entire population of the earth agrees and all governments commit to do their part despite the political and financial ramifications by around lunchtime tomorrow, I'm confident we'll get climate change under control.

[gout_pony]

You guys could use your withering ire to responding to this colossally irritating official BP tweet:
https://twitter.com/BP_plc/status/1186645440621531136

(part of me thinks that their social media employees don't deserve it... and part of me thinks that they maybe kind of do...)

Anyway, XR's "no blaming and shaming" policy seems to thankfully extend only to individuals and not companies!

#lovetogreenwash

[Buelligan]

Some people would spend the rest of their lives and everything they have trying to make up for what they'd done.  Some people would just die of shame.  Not BP.  Who could listen to someone that does this and still thinks they have a right to tell people anything?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill

[Sin Agog]

Hi half-dead, greasy pelican, have a look here https://bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/bp-magazine/update-on-bps-ric-targets-reduce.html… to see our progress so far on reducing emissions, improving our products, & creating low carbon businesses

[Kryton]

[Buelligan]

It's a thing, isn't it?  Our memories.  The way we seem to forget some things but the media makes sure it points out others, constantly reminding us, like we must mistrust and despise, other, a bunch of "hemp-smelling hippies" but it's absolutely unremarkable to make a purchase from BP.  BP.

It's insanity that anyone listens.  But we do, don't we.  We selectively forget, we allow ourselves to be spun around and we keep letting these fucks continue.  We need to stop.  It's our responsibility too.

[Blumf]

It is one way to stop the carbon going into the atmosphere, just dump it straight into the ocean. Well done BP!

[gout_pony]

It's a thing, isn't it?  Our memories.  The way we seem to forget some things but the media makes sure it points out others, constantly reminding us, like we must mistrust and despise, other, a bunch of "hemp-smelling hippies" but it's absolutely unremarkable to make a purchase from BP.  BP.

It's insanity that anyone listens.  But we do, don't we.  We selectively forget, we allow ourselves to be spun around and we keep letting these fucks continue.  We need to stop.  It's our responsibility too.

At a local protest we did in which a couple of us got on the roof of a BP service station and occupied the forecourt (leading BP to shut it down for the day) I basically ended up being the public liaison and probably talked to about a 100 drivers wanting to buy petrol. We'd been strategic and sensible enough to choose a garage literally over the road from a different Tescos one so that people weren't majorly inconvenienced in terms of time. Obviously a lot of people were still very angry - I tried my best not to get self-defensive and to listen to what they had to say.

Because people didn't really have recourse to the reason that they desperately needed petrol so where were they now going to get it from (over the road) the main thing they were angry about was that we were interfering with their consumer choice and right to spend their hard-earned money on whatever they wanted. Fascinatingly/disturbingly when they asked to explain and justify why we were targeting BP and I gave the response that they'd recently written off having to pay a massive fine as a tax rebate; that they're been responsible for terrible oil spills; that they use greenwashing to suggest they invest far, far more in renewables than they actually do etc. etc. the vast majority were very quick to agree that "yeah, they're obviously evil". I don't think anyone actually defended or liked BP. But they still wanted to buy their petrol there not from Tescos.

[Paul Calf]

The thing is, it was probably the same petrol from the same refinery.

People are depressing. I am going to drown myself if this continues.

[Sin Agog]

The thing is, it was probably the same petrol from the same refinery.

People are depressing. I am going to drown myself if this continues.

At least you're not like one of those monk wasters dousing themselves in petrol before setting themselves on fire.

[Buelligan]

The thing is, it was probably the same petrol from the same refinery.

But at this point in the struggle we know it's not about stopping all of this, not yet, it's about reminding consumers not to allow companies with appalling records, even huge very powerful ones, to continue trading openly.  Reminding other companies that if they think they're going to get away with this stuff any more, they are very wrong.

It's like not buying or linking The Sun, maybe it won't destroy Murdoch's empire of evil, but at least they're beginning to notice.

[BlodwynPig]

The thing is, it was probably the same petrol from the same refinery.

People are depressing. I am going to drown myself if this continues.

Can you hurl your ragged corpse into a nuclear reactor causing deaths of millions? At least then not a wasted life...

[Paul Calf]

But at this point in the struggle we know it's not about stopping all of this, not yet, it's about reminding consumers not to allow companies with appalling records, even huge very powerful ones, to continue trading openly.  Reminding other companies that if they think they're going to get away with this stuff any more, they are very wrong.

It's like not buying or linking The Sun, maybe it won't destroy Murdoch's empire of evil, but at least they're beginning to notice.

Oh, I think the XR protestors behaved without reproach in this process. The motorists getting upset about what logo would be on the pumps thoey bought their petrol from were fucking idiots. Unleaded is entirely fungible.

[Buelligan]

I'm well aware of that, most people probably are, aren't they?