Vegan bullshit/ keto bullshit

[Retinend]

Stumbled across this alarming video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJnPZgLHHWQ

OK, got it: so just eating fruit is stupid and not sexy. You need some meat in a healthy diet.

But this a guy who makes videos like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weRKlBGszhY&t=190s

(Jordan Peterson* makes high-pitched sounds of approval)

The lithuanian's channel features interviews with people who ping-ponged from veganism to keto (that means a 90% meat and butter diet, for the uninitiated) and sound just as messianic and self righteous as they would have done as vegans. My first introduction to the krazy world of keto was via a guy that was later interviewed on this very channel. He who made this ironically titled video...:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDcLkGYjgZs

...which is precisely the most overcomplicated explanation of a diet ever. If you're lost, watch his 1000 other videos, shot with the same angles and at the same length.

Now it's easy to get sucked in by the jargon they use and feel unqualified to call bullshit. But all they do is use words from molecular biology that, though understood as molecules, aren't well understood in their application to actual dietary advice. People who get angry taking sides in nutritional debates (not all vegans/keto people) tend to be people dependent on dogmas, rather like conspiracy theorists and the extreme left/right. The lithuanian guy's channel claims that veganism is the preferred diet of the New World Order, for example, and cites interviews conducted on InfoWars without disclaimer.

To use his startling visual argument against him, what are the chances that this guy - eating raw meat and only raw meat every day (or Peterson, for that matter) - are going to look like normal human beings in 3 years? They'll have another revelation and switch to a new diet, perhaps based entirely on their own farts.

There is, however an interesting subtext to all this (that is, when the real science is off the table): left and right in a microcosm. Naturally, vegans represent the left and the ketoneans the right. The former stand for confronting uncomfortable ethical responsibilities; the latter for resigning ourselves to the right of might. The former stand for oneness with nature in a sense of harmless cooperation with natural processes; the latter for oneness with nature in the sense of embracing the competition inherent in nature. The former stand for cleansing the body of what is unneeded; the latter stand for arming the body with harder better stronger faster flesh.

*for the record, on the whole, I like Jordan Peterson, and did so before he was cool/uncool.

[ZoyzaSorris]

But: Im a loony lefter and also 5 years deep into keto and loving it. Might not be right for everyone but out of everything Ive tried (and I have tried just about every paradigm of supposed healthy living) it is head (cheese) and (slow-cooked pork) shoulders above everything for me in terms of general physical and mental health. Doesn't have to mean tons of meat. I'm vegetarian most of the time cos my wife is. Basically I just avoid sugar, grains and potatoes.

[Al Tha Funkee Homosapien]

But: Im a loony lefter and also 5 years deep into keto and loving it. Might not be right for everyone but out of everything Ive tried (and I have tried just about every paradigm of supposed healthy living) it is head (cheese) and (slow-cooked pork) shoulders above everything for me in terms of general physical and mental health. Doesn't have to mean tons of meat. I'm vegetarian most of the time cos my wife is. Basically I just avoid sugar, grains and potatoes.

But are you actually in a ketogenic state (e.g. using fatty acids to create ketone bodies) or are just on a standard low-carb diet? I'm not trying to criticise your diet, if it works for and you feel good from it, just wondering how into you are. Do you test your wee and stuff like that?

[Cuellar]

Veganism is probably the right thing to do tbf

probably not gonna tho

[Funcrusher]

Unnatural Vegan is a good You Tube channel for a sensible take on vegan diets, the foibles of crazy end vegans, debunking diet pseudo science etc.

[Sin Agog]

Unnatural Vegan is a good You Tube channel for a sensible take on vegan diets, the foibles of crazy end vegans, debunking diet pseudo science etc.

Deluded Vegan Cunts is an even better and more fair-minded channel.  Its central thesis revolves around the theorem that, given enough time, all vegans will become vegetables themselves.  The former farmer who coined the word 'vegan' in the '40s, Donald something, started taking on a green tint at the end of his life.  Unfortunately, his estate refused to surrender his body for a post-mortem by unbiased paleo-scienticians, but it's certain that had they done so, we will have found that many of his organs had photosynthesized into a fleshy-flora melding.  Neighbours claimed he rank of sunflower seeds near the end.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I like Jordan Peterson, and did so before he was cool/uncool.

Wow that's a bold entry on here these days.

[ZoyzaSorris]

But are you actually in a ketogenic state (e.g. using fatty acids to create ketone bodies) or are just on a standard low-carb diet? I'm not trying to criticise your diet, if it works for and you feel good from it, just wondering how into you are. Do you test your wee and stuff like that?

I used to test my blood and now ive got a ketonix breath tester (less accurate but a lot more comvenient). Im in ketosis a good proportion of the time but not always (my strictness varies). When I am it always correlates with the most noticeable feelings of well-being. The state of ketosis seems very anxiolytic to me. Whether thats the anti-inflammatory effect of ketone bodies or because they are a more efficient energy source for the brain than glucose and produce less waste and free radicals - or something else - i dont know. My extremely positive response could be related to my childhood epilepsy in some way, ketogenic diets being a noted long-standing treatment for this? Would like to know more. But its still a little-explored area in terms of proper studies.

[hummingofevil]

I've been fat for most of my adult life and for first time in years I'm officially no longer obese. How? Just old fashioned boring calorie counting and plenty of exercise. My problem before was about how lifestyle/stress/tiredness made me so hungry I overate (and that is almost impossible to fight in moment) but my conclusion is all specialist diets are little more than fraud. Eat a cake. Just don't eat loads of cake.

[Cloud]

[tag]Nevillebait[/tag]

[ZoyzaSorris]

I've been fat for most of my adult life and for first time in years I'm officially no longer obese. How? Just old fashioned boring calorie counting and plenty of exercise. My problem before was about how lifestyle/stress/tiredness made me so hungry I overate (and that is almost impossible to fight in moment) but my conclusion is all specialist diets are little more than fraud. Eat a cake. Just don't eat loads of cake.

Tried that for years and had very poor results. With keto the results were rapid and extremely noticeable in all aspects of health, not just weight, and without having to count calories in any way. It is not a specialist diet, it is just not eating crap our bodies aren't evolved to handle, basically. If anything, it is the simplistic calories-in calories-out model that is falling out of favour. Our bodies are much more complex than that.

[BlodwynPig]

Welcome *back* Retinend.

[Sin Agog]

That first vid is some sub-Riefenstahl bullcrap. Reminds me of this newborn 20-something neighbour who showed me a picture of sad, crying Canadians with their guns taken away from them, then showed a photoshop of a beaming Trump handing guns to the elative crowd, and said, "Do you see? This proves that Canada is so much more depressed without guns." Showing random emaciated peoples, probably culled from a leukemia foundation fundraiser video, as proof of the withering effects of veganism is in no way more evolved than that shite my neighbour soaked up.  I am a Mr. Motivator looking motherfucker and I just do some paltry few exercises on my bed for a few minutes a day (mostly one onlookers have referred to as Humping the Invisible Woman).

[jamiefairlie]

Tried that for years and had very poor results. With keto the results were rapid and extremely noticeable in all aspects of health, not just weight, and without having to count calories in any way. It is not a specialist diet, it is just not eating crap our bodies aren't evolved to handle, basically. If anything, it is the simplistic calories-in calories-out model that is falling out of favour. Our bodies are much more complex than that.

Agreed. The only bit I don't like about the keto extremists is the insistence on counting all carbs as bad as opposed to net carbs. This leads to broccoli and spinach being discouraged, which is crazy.

Eat organic meats, lots of fish, lots of high fibre veggies and zero processed food.

[The Boston Crab]

Fuck everyone, so great that we're all gonna die and the planet will explode. What a waste of everyone's time.

[Goldentony]

get a tenners smack in

[ZoyzaSorris]

Agreed. The only bit I don't like about the keto extremists is the insistence on counting all carbs as bad as opposed to net carbs. This leads to broccoli and spinach being discouraged, which is crazy.

Eat organic meats, lots of fish, lots of high fibre veggies and zero processed food.

Yes, i eat a ton of delicious sauteed vegetables. Dont know where the idea came from that it has to be raw meat and thats it (most meat isnt fatty enough to make up the bulk of a diet where the majority of your calories come from fat anyway, so it would be easy to eat too much protein).

[Retinend]

Whew boy... the lithuanian is even more crazy than he first seems. He eats rotten meat and compares its taste to fine wine and cheese (i.e. it has the pungent odor of rotting flesh), he is a flat-earther, and he practises "sungazing", which is the practice of staring directly at the sun in order to open the third eye. Time to turn off youtube for the day...


The raw meat diet is, to be clear, far more crazy than keto per se. Keto and normal veganism are on the spectrum of normal diets, whereas raw meat and fruitarianism are their extreme edge-cases. I do however, think that the keto video I linked to and the clips in the anti-vegan video do represent a significant minority of diet-dogmatists within those groups (and clearly ZoyzaSorris is not one of them).

Welcome *back* Retinend.

Thanks!

[thugler]

I used to test my blood and now ive got a ketonix breath tester (less accurate but a lot more comvenient). Im in ketosis a good proportion of the time but not always (my strictness varies). When I am it always correlates with the most noticeable feelings of well-being. The state of ketosis seems very anxiolytic to me. Whether thats the anti-inflammatory effect of ketone bodies or because they are a more efficient energy source for the brain than glucose and produce less waste and free radicals - or something else - i dont know. My extremely positive response could be related to my childhood epilepsy in some way, ketogenic diets being a noted long-standing treatment for this? Would like to know more. But its still a little-explored area in terms of proper studies.

'they are a more efficient energy source for the brain than glucose '

This just isn't true. Nor will your brain be getting all of its energy from ketones, even when you are in ketosis.

[Queneau]

Every video I have seen in this thread is shit or disturbing. Am I saying I can do better? Yes. Will I? Fuck no. Everyone involved in these is a total cunt with no exception.

[ZoyzaSorris]

'they are a more efficient energy source for the brain than glucose '

This just isn't true. Nor will your brain be getting all of its energy from ketones, even when you are in ketosis.

It absolutely is true and is pretty basic uncontroversial biochemical science at this point. Ketone bodies produce more ATP per unit of oxygen and hence also produce less free radicals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5102124/

They are also anti-excitatory (hence effectiveness in treating epilepsy and other neurological conditions). This is also uncontroversial.

A few types of cell in the body require glucose - those too small to contain mitochondria (eg red blood cells), that have to produce ATP inefficiently by direct cell respiration. Microglial cells in the brain fall into this category but all other brain cells, the vast majority by volume, can (and do - very effectively) use ketone bodies. The modest amount of glucose required is easily produced in the liver from amino acids, in the absence of any external carbohydrate sources (in practice any normal veg heavy Leto diet would easily supply enough carbs to fuel microglia and red blood cells anyway.

[thugler]

ketogenic diets being a noted long-standing treatment for this? Would like to know more. But its still a little-explored area in terms of proper studies.

Also nonsense, there's plenty of studies due to the use of keto diets for epilepsy. This stuff about us 'not being evolved' to eat things like potatos/starch is historically and scientifically just plain wrong also. It gives me no pleasure to point this out as zoyzasorris is a good lefty and all.

You also fail to mention the many well reported serious side effects of following the diet for many people, even if it does work for yourself

[New Jack]

I have a ket diet, it's ace, losing loads of weight, though I don't know who, what, or if I am

[Sebastian Cobb]

I didn't realise this was a thing:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/23/pet-owners-feed-cats-vegan-diet-could-face-prosecution/

[Queneau]

Anyone else think cats are total cunts?

[NoSleep]

I can see how you could argue that owning a pet excludes one from being a vegan.

[katzenjammer]

Keeping an animal hostage for your own amusement does seem to go against the principals of vegansim a tad

[NoSleep]

Also nonsense, there's plenty of studies due to the use of keto diets for epilepsy. This stuff about us 'not being evolved' to eat things like potatos/starch is historically and scientifically just plain wrong also. It gives me no pleasure to point this out as zoyzasorris is a good lefty and all.

You also fail to mention the many well reported serious side effects of following the diet for many people, even if it does work for yourself

I didn't realise Zoyza was a keto-nut when he was naysaying Michael Greger (who's a reliable source of information on food). He still hasn't explained why one should avoid taking the advice on Greger's website; simply poo-pooed it and never elucidated.

[Queneau]

I'm vegan. How do you know? I just told you! Haha. Someone I am friends with through a vegan forum just posted this and I think it's so fucking stupid.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Keeping an animal hostage for your own amusement does seem to go against the principals of vegansim a tad

I did think 'these must be housecats' because any self-respecting mog allowed out would either go on a hunting rampage or adopt a new owner.