Vegan bullshit/ keto bullshit

[ZoyzaSorris]

Also nonsense, there's plenty of studies due to the use of keto diets for epilepsy. This stuff about us 'not nbeing evolved' to eat things like potatos/starch is historically and scientifically just plain wrong also. It gives me no pleasure to point this out as zoyzasorris is a good lefty and all.

You also fail to mention the many well reported serious side effects of following the diet for many people, even if it does work for yourself

I note that you still haven't responded to the evidence that ketone bodies ARE a more efficient fuel than glucose.

Yes, I said that the efficacy of a ketogenic diet for epilepsy was well established. I was referring to the lack of studies on humans for the purported benefits of ketogenic diets on other neurological dysfunctions where the physiological theory (such as its anti-excitatory, pro-GABA properties)  and anecdotal evidence would suggest promise. There are some supporting studies in this direction on rats, but little on humans. Because it is expensive and there is little financial incentive to do so (and most large institutions are taking their time to reverse from the old discredited fat = bad paradigm). So I'm not sure what you are attacking me for here.

I also said immediately it might not be for everyone. I think there is probably a genetic  spectrum of metabolic resistance to dysfunction caused by extended overexposure to carbohydrates and I lie at one end of it, as do a lot of other people who get extremely good results. At the other end some people are lucky enough to be able to eat potatoes and bread to their hearts content until they die. There probably has been some evolution in some genes in some people since the Neolithic revolution that allows some people to deal with these foodstuffs. But it is simple commonsense that very few wild foods contain large densities of sugar or starch in the way modern diets do. Wild tubers and seeds have a much larger ratio of fibre to starch (likewise wild fruit and fibre - sugar ratio) and would only ever be available in modest quantities, compared with domesticated varieties. It is completely irrefutable that the vast majority of our evolution took place  without access to such extreme and continuous access to easily digestible starch and sugars.

I sing the praises of the ketogenic diet because it has changed my life, but I acknowledged immediately that this is me and not apply to everyone. Not quite sure why you have such an extreme view the other way.

[ZoyzaSorris]

I didn't realise Zoyza was a keto-nut when he was naysaying Michael Greger (who's a reliable source of information on food). He still hasn't explained why one should avoid taking the advice on Greger's website; simply poo-pooed it and never elucidated.

I'm pretty sure I gave a pretty thorough explanation of why his advice was flaky at the time. If I didn't I'd be happy to revisit the issue.

The trouble with most vegan (as Greger is) takes on this is that they start with the moral position that drew them in in the first place* and then, as human nature is wont to do, try and build the science around that to justify it from that perspective as well. It comes across quite ideological, and easily lapses into flaky science as a result. Whereas someone supportive of the ketogenic diet has no other attraction to it than it is effective for them, there is no moral dimension. The interest in the science is mainly wanting to explore why it works to make it as effective as possible. (It is doable to do vegan keto by the way, it even has its own subreddit, but takes a lot of commitment, more than I can give at the current place in my life.)

*a sound one, I'd like to keep reducing my consumption of animal foods given the environmental and ethical impacts (though the binary zealotry of veganism annoys me, there are many ways in which agricultural production can cause a huge net detrimental effect on animals)

[NoSleep]

His take isn't vegan; it's wholefood, plant-based (and exercise). He recommends, for example, supplementing your diet (in the winter) with vitamin D3, which can't be vegan-sourced. He even says that it's OK, on occasions, to eat meat (just not as a regular part of one's diet). His main concern is human health.

His summary of evidence ("on balance") is taken directly from research on foodstuffs which are cited (and reproduced) on each of his posts.

I don't think you've spent any time on his website to have come to any conclusion that is near to what is actually present there.

[Old Nehamkin]

His take isn't vegan; it's wholefood, plant-based. he recommends, for example, supplementing your diet (in the winter) with vitamin D3, which can't be vegan-sourced.

You can buy vegan D3 supplements. It's extracted from lichen.

[NoSleep]

D2 is the usual vegan one you find. It doesn't have the prolonged half-life of D3, though. Most available D3 supplements are sourced from lanolin. The one I currently use (a spray) isn't vegan.

[Queneau]

I get vitamin D3 tablets from Myprotein.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I had a nice cake today in Porto and would A* recommend eating cakes

[New Jack]

I'm vegan. How do you know? I just told you! Haha. Someone I am friends with through a vegan forum just posted this and I think it's so fucking stupid.

Knock knock
Who's there?
I'm a vegan!


Why did the vegan cross the road?
Don't worry, they'll tell you.

[Cloud]

Keeping an animal hostage for your own amusement does seem to go against the principals of vegansim a tad

lol

If people's pets are merely  "for their own amusement", they're doing it wrong.  And should probably not breed (sorry, I mean keep a child hostage for their own amusement)

[katzenjammer]

lol

If people's pets are merely  "for their own amusement", they're doing it wrong.  And should probably not breed (sorry, I mean keep a child hostage for their own amusement)

Why do they keep them then?  Seriously I don't really know. We've got a cat (from a rescue centre, the rest of my family wanted him, I'm indifferent) and of course he's very well cared for here but I sometimes wonder if he'd be happier if we just let him loose in the park to hang out with the strays there.

Oh and you can let children go when they're old enough.  Pets, not so much

[Sebastian Cobb]

People more-or-less do have children for their own amusement in the western world. Not like you need to fire a load out so they can tend to the farm and look after you when you're too frail to do it.

[MuteBanana]

I didn't realise this was a thing:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/23/pet-owners-feed-cats-vegan-diet-could-face-prosecution/

I remember seeing Tumblr posts of miserable looking dogs that were forced to eat vegan. Upsetting.

Most recent diet fad I've been looking into is the carnivore diet. All meat, eggs and cheese and milk also allowed.

[Twed]

Let's take everybody who thinks keto means "a fuckload of meat and protein" and flush them down their own impacted toilets.

[Queneau]

Knock knock
Who's there?
I'm a vegan!


Why did the vegan cross the road?
Don't worry, they'll tell you.

Is someone there?
Yes, a vegan.
Eat some meat so next time you can knock louder.

Why did the vegan eat the burger?
Because it was one of those vegan burgers. You know them ones?

[NoSleep]

Let's take everybody who thinks keto means "a fuckload of meat and protein" and flush them down their own impacted toilets.

Are you sure you wouldn't prefer to eat them?

[Twed]

Only if I could call them turfuckens.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Let's take everybody who thinks keto means "a fuckload of meat and protein" and flush them down their own impacted toilets.

You could survive entirely off the chip factory within your shoulders.

[Twed]

I don't think you understand how the phrase "chip on your shoulder" is used.

[Cloud]

sometimes wonder if he'd be happier if we just let him loose

People more-or-less do have children for their own amusement in the western world

#ShitVegansSay

[Paul Calf]

It's nice that we keep finding things that divide us bitterly isn't it?

[Noodle Lizard]

I don't especially buy into the "lifestyle" or militance of it, but a relaxed paleo/ketogenic style diet worked wonders for me.  Weight dropped off and I felt better than ever, without craving much or feeling miserable after meals.

Of course I've gone and gotten properly lazy recently.  Haven't put much of the weight back on, but I'm looking forward to getting back on it for the other benefits.

Was also vegan for the best part of two years and never felt worse, though I'd gone on it partially to cure a pre-existing mystery ailment, so I don't blame the diet itself for that.

[NoSleep]

Was also vegan for the best part of two years and never felt worse, though I'd gone on it partially to cure a pre-existing mystery ailment, so I don't blame the diet itself for that.

"Going vegan" doesn't really tell anyone else what your diet consisted of, though; Coca Cola is "vegan" as are many processed foods. The first video in the OP probably described herself as vegan but looks (from what was on her plate as well as her increasingly skeletal frame) like she seriously lacked daily portions of grains, nuts and legumes.

[Sebastian Cobb]

#ShitVegansSay

I eat a brisket all by myself over the course of last week, what are you on about?

[hummingofevil]

Im sorry as wanted to stay out of this debate but it's infuriated me.

So can someone confirm that a Keto diet requires one to refrain from all carbs? Are there people claiming this is a miracle diet who are eating "Keto" and lost lots of weight without calorie counting but who have also given up booze. Is booze allowed?

Happy to debate this but if you following a diet that bans booze and you losing weight it's the not-drinking-booze that doing it.

I've (without really thinking about it) massively reduced red meat intake, booze and bread and weight droooef off; 12kg in 3 months. Diet of porridge, tuna, lots of veg and home cooked food (whatever I fancy really just limit portions).

Stand by theory you Keto types have just found a psychologically satisfying way to reduce calories.,

[jamiefairlie]

Im sorry as wanted to stay out of this debate but it's infuriated me.

So can someone confirm that a Keto diet requires one to refrain from all carbs (e.g. booze)?

It's not zero carbs but you do need to stay low so yeah, booze is tough to fit in.

[hummingofevil]

It's not zero carbs but you do need to stay low so yeah, booze is tough to fit in.

Cheers. 3500 calories +/- BMR is a pound a week weight gain loss. Seems a lot but that equivalent to 15 pints of lager (2 and a bit per day). So you can eat healthy and exercise a moderate amount (10,000 steps is a few hundred calories at best) but you have couple of beers or half bottle of wine an evening and easily gain pound a week. Stop drinking and weight goes other way.

I stand by argument that it's not magic. Calorie counting without counting.,

[NoSleep]

I've been on a wholefood, plant-based diet, precisely one year now, specifically to reduce my blood pressure (which had significantly changed for the better within a week and continued to improve). One of the things I quickly decided was to cut out the booze after seeing how it would affect blood pressure through to the next day. I'm pretty certain that the weight I lost over the first three months or so (10kg) was down to cutting out booze more than anything else and it was what I assumed to be my beer belly that disappeared in the same period.

[Rocket Surgery]

but you have couple of beers or half bottle of wine an evening and easily gain pound a week. Stop drinking and weight goes other way.

As a skinny fucker who drinks like a fish, statements like that always make me laugh.

Sorry to seem like a smug bastard. But I am, so etc.

[Icehaven]

As a skinny fucker who drinks like a fish, statements like that always make me laugh.

Sorry to seem like a smug bastard. But I am, so etc.

I'm not skinny by any stretch, however I agree that booze just doesn't seem to have the same weight gain effects on me as food does. I've lost significant amounts of weight several times across my adult life, and done so relatively easily when trying to through diet* and exercise without reducing my (not inconsiderable) booze intake one jot. In fact if anything I've probably drunk more when I'm watching what I eat as I needed some fun, ffs. I dunno, do you end up peeing half the calories out or something? Food on the other hand forget it, I'm very much in the only-have-to-look-at-it-and-it's-on-my-thighs camp.

*By diet I mean watching what I eat through calorie counting and keeping fat and sugar low, not any specific diet.

[NoSleep]

I'm skinny as well, which is why it all came off my beer gut when I stopped. It was the only place I had accumulated any extra fat.