Author Topic: Post Beatles Beatles relationships  (Read 20850 times)

biggytitbo

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Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« on: November 24, 2018, 10:20:20 PM »
Famously after the Beatles broke up, John and Paul had a bit of a spat wbhere the slagged each other off in records. Paul released Too Many People and 3 Legs on Ram, which John saw as a subtle dig at him, so in typical Lennon style he went balls out and released the open McCartney attack song How do You Sleep. They also had a bit of a squabble in various letters to the music press. But by the mid 70s they had apparently patched up their relationship and were on friendly terms by the time of John's death.


What of the other Beatles? There doesn't appear to be many reliable sources on it, just little snippets here and there. My impression is Ringo was always on the outside of the ego stuff and continued to have both personal and professional relationships with the other Beatles. All 3 of the Beatles continued to play on various Ringo albums, but never together unfortunately.


The most complicated one is George. He spent his entire life post Beatles moaning about it, and didn't work with Paul again until the anthology project. He worked with John and Ringo occasionally in the early 70s though, but as far as I know he had a fairly major personal falling out with Lennon in the mid 70s and didn't speak to him for 5 years before his death. He remained reasonably friendly with Paul though, I think.


But most of this is rumour. Are there any reliable sources about what the interpersonal relationships were like between the Beatles post breakup?

grassbath

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2018, 10:33:15 PM »
To copy over what I wrote in the other thread:

Yep, I think despite the more public nature of George's spats with Paul, it was a fundamentally more wholesome relationship than George's with John. I don't think John ever had a full or genuine respect for George's music really, but George was very convenient to use for leverage against Paul when it suited John, especially in the breakup era. May Pang gives an account in her book of an incident in the mid 70s when John failed to show up for a business meeting or something and George lost his shit, saying 'I've always done what you asked of me - when have you ever given me anything in return?'

Likewise it was anger with John's non-commitment, as opposed to Paul's fussiness, which drove George to walk out of the Get Back sessions. Of course, given the generally cracked and skewed lens of Beatles historiography, people infer a lot from a little - the infamous 'I'll play whatever you want me to play' clip being a big culprit.

To which I would also add that Olivia and Dhani Harrison have a very good relationship with Paul, to such an extent that Olivia wrote a piece defending Paul when some piece of hackwork was published about him in the 80s or 90s. I doubt this would be the case if Paul and George were at each others' throats all the time. I have also read before that Paul lent a lot of financial support when George was ill, which breaks my heart if true, though I don't think I've ever seen this verified by a reliable source. Basically, I think most of George's gripes with Paul were in the studio and as a creative collaborator - not with him as a person.

Beagle 2

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2018, 10:52:02 PM »
I've got no great insight here and I'm sure somebody will be along soon who does, but I've got the same impression as you over the last few years about George just from snippets of interviews here and there, the way he acts in Anthology, it seemed like he was still holding on to a lot of stuff, perhaps fairly, perhaps not. I wish I could find a clip of him on Clive James from the late 80s I was watching where he was having a pop at Paul again for something that seemed fairly innocuous. Although his was the driest humour of all of them, and I think he enjoyed being on the wind up a bit - to see if he could puncture macca's pomposity (I say that as someone who loves the bloke). Im sure they got on as well as Macca said they did towards the end, but I feel part of that was probably Paul either rising above it or being blissfully unaware of subtext.

biggytitbo

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2018, 10:54:31 PM »
yes there's a George interview from the mid 70s where he says him and Paul are pals but he wouldn't want to record with him again because he found him annoying as a collaborator, that is obviously born out by the famous Let It Be clip. But wasn't there a far worse unfilmed row between George and John that almost came to blows from the same sessions?

Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2018, 10:58:53 PM »
A related question is how relationships would have evolved after 1980 had Lennon not been killed. I don't see how they would have ever done a live concert again, but Lennon participating in an Anthology project or Band Aid type charity single is not inconceivable, especially if he divorced Yoko. They all needed money for divorces or struggling business projects like George's film company.

But it would have been crap if their writing had turned to shit.

biggytitbo

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2018, 11:09:19 PM »
An alternative universe where all 4 of them reformed for Live Aid would have been possible, or maybe some 20th anniversary thing in the early 80s. John was already open to the idea of a reunion in the mid 70s, just cynical that it would ever happen as they all were too busy with their own stuff. It seems pretty inevitable something would have happened eventually, had he not been killed.

Beagle 2

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2018, 11:13:17 PM »
An 80s attempt at a reunion would have been horrible, they could have done something in the 90s, perhaps - I could have seen some low-key Lennon and McCartney collaborations. It was all best left where it was musically, but it breaks my heart we never saw them sat in a room chatting with a cup of tea in their old age.

The stuff about Macca just turning up all the time at Lennon's house before he died and Lennon being like "um, that's nice but could you at least phone ahead", is kinda sweet, kinda sad. Paul obviously just wanted them all to be mates again.

I suppose business has to come into it, if they were making good money and things were fine on that score then perhaps things could have developed with their personal relationships.

Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2018, 11:15:01 PM »
I was surprised and saddened to recently discover that the four of them were never together in the one place after their final Beatles photo session in 1969.

biggytitbo

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2018, 11:27:47 PM »
On the note of John divorcing Yoko, isn't there a Lennon biographer who insists that he actually hated her, and their relationship was a big sham? Ahh here it is, the crazy biography of Lennon by Albert Goldman - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_John_Lennon


The most crazy thing is that at least some of the outlandish claims in his book are seemingly true.

Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2018, 11:34:37 PM »
The book 'You Never Give Me Your Money' by Peter Doggett is the best account of the continuing associations between the Beatles post-breakup that I know of. Hard to find a Beatles book that has reams of stuff I've never heard about before, but that's one

Bennett Brauer

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 11:36:43 PM »
It's been years since I read it, but You Never Give Me Your Money, Peter Doggett's book about them after the break-up, is pretty enlightening.

grassbath

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2018, 11:37:43 PM »
^Seconded. And it's unquestionably one of the best books written about the Beatles in general, for its refreshingly even-handed and non-partisan treatment of all four as flawed humans.

Bennett Brauer

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2018, 11:43:32 PM »
^^ Flip it... what M Verdoux said just before me. Just looking at one of the photos in the book now, all four of them looking happy together in 1967 at the time of MMT, but the caption adds: "Thereafter it was difficult to force the four men into the same frame, let alone expect them to smile."

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2018, 11:48:55 PM »
On the note of John divorcing Yoko, isn't there a Lennon biographer who insists that he actually hated her, and their relationship was a big sham? Ahh here it is, the crazy biography of Lennon by Albert Goldman - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_John_Lennon


The most crazy thing is that at least some of the outlandish claims in his book are seemingly true.

Goldman may well have sieved some nuggets of truth during whatever passed for his research*, but the man was a total cunt, a nasty, sordid hack biographer who openly detested the people he wrote about. He didn't like rock music at all, yet chose to write hefty biographies of Lennon and Elvis. They weren't perfect human beings by any stretch of the imagination, but according to Goldman they were rock and roll Hitlers, only worse.

* His Lennon and Elvis books are appallingly researched. Even when you get to bits which may well be true, they're impossible to believe because he's made so many glaring errors.

Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2018, 11:51:56 PM »
I was amazed, reading YNGMYM, at just how massively constrained they were by their contractual obligations. Many of their solo career moves make a hell of a lot more sense when put into the context of just how deep in the shit they were financially. The one I remember most acutely was Lennon delivering an album every year in first half the 70's because he'd have been sued if he didn't. In that light, it becomes much less surprising that he fucked off the recording industry entirely after that

New Jack

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2018, 11:54:36 PM »
I was amazed, reading the book, at just how massively constrained they were by their contractual obligations. Many of their solo career moves make a hell of a lot more sense when put into the context of just how deep in the shit they were financially

Frog Song

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2018, 11:56:36 PM »
Frog Chorus, mate. It's the Frog Chorus.

New Jack

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2018, 11:59:40 PM »
Oh shit!

Used to be scared of that as Wee Jack.

Anyway that was my contrition re: the Beatles' relationships.

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biggytitbo

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2018, 12:05:44 AM »
The frog chorus is the ultimate cunt detector I find. People who go on about how shit it is are cunts.

The stuff about how contractually tied up the were post 1970 is interesting though, never heard that about Lennon before. Did that apply to the others aswell?

Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2018, 12:07:44 AM »
McCartney initially announced work on a Rupert the Bear cartoon all the way back in 1970. It was supposed to be one of his first business ventures outside the Beatles and was announced alongside the McCartney album. So the frog chorus was a long time coming

Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2018, 12:12:22 AM »
The stuff about how contractually tied up the were post 1970 is interesting though, never heard that about Lennon before. Did that apply to the others aswell?

As far as I recall yes, they were all obliged to deliver albums because they'd signed a contract around the Apple era that tied them together for the next 6 or 7 years. I think part of the reason that they helped Ringo along with his solo albums was because they counted towards fulfilment of the obligation, and some of McCartney's more tossed off sounding early 70's albums were because he had no other choice but to deliver a certain amount of stuff to the record company

Bennett Brauer

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2018, 12:27:39 AM »
The frog chorus is the ultimate cunt detector I find. People who go on about how shit it is are cunts.

It's just received ignorance really. It's absolutely perfect for what it is.

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Lennon first clapped his eyes on this though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LHeEwiQJsY

Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2018, 12:31:18 AM »
I just checked the book, and the dodgy deal was apparently one arranged by Epstein in 1967. The Beatles were obliged to deliver 70 recordings over the next 5 years, and a continuous flow of albums until 1976, either as a group or individually.

biggytitbo

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2018, 01:15:17 AM »
As far as I recall yes, they were all obliged to deliver albums because they'd signed a contract around the Apple era that tied them together for the next 6 or 7 years. I think part of the reason that they helped Ringo along with his solo albums was because they counted towards fulfilment of the obligation, and some of McCartney's more tossed off sounding early 70's albums were because he had no other choice but to deliver a certain amount of stuff to the record company


I don't know if this is true or not but it sounds like bollocks. Lennon and mccartneys early solo stuff is arguably their best ( Lennon especially.) 

Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2018, 01:25:51 AM »
It's absolutely true that they were contractually obliged to frequently deliver product (see above post, sourced from the book), however that doesn't mean that they were pumping out sub par stuff, and when I say 'tossed off' in relation to McCartney, I'm talking about the debut and Wild Life which are both really good albums imo. They just had to put stuff out, they had no choice.

Howj Begg

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2018, 01:34:06 AM »
This explains the 3 and 2 lp sets, the multiple live albums etc.

Nowhere Man

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2018, 04:02:33 AM »
I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when Lennon first clapped his eyes on this though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LHeEwiQJsY

Or what he thought when he saw THIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhVaDFoFMJk

Probably McCartney's dorkiest moment right there.

Bennett Brauer

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2018, 04:20:42 AM »
Or what he thought when he saw THIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhVaDFoFMJk

Probably McCartney's dorkiest moment right there.

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grassbath

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2018, 09:47:01 AM »
Though Lennon is quoted in several interviews as saying he doesn't like or follow McCartney's post-Beatles music, this was just bluster - people close to him have claimed that he followed it religiously. There are tons of messages exchanged between the two in song after the breakup, I think infinitely more than your 'How Do You Sleep's and 'Dear Friend's, and many references that we will probably never know or understand. Let's not forget that these two guys learned how to write songs sitting opposite each other as teenagers, and grew into two of the greats in each others' company and influence.

Yoko has said that she and Lennon listened to Red Rose Speedway and were moved to tears - it's always intrigued me as to why, although I think that's a quite misunderstood album with a lot of masked hurt and confusion on it. Contrary to conventional wisdom, photographer Bob Gruen said that Lennon loved 'Silly Love Songs,' and interpreted it as a personal message to him. There's another story from an aide or a producer where John is sitting in a meeting and a new Wings song starts playing incredibly faintly on the radio in the other room, and John's ears prick up at the sound of Paul's voice and he runs out of the room to listen to it. He also played 'Jet' when he hosted a New York radio show in 1974, saying he wanted to play 'Monkberry Moon Delight' but it was 'too long.'

Again, you have to take Lennon's interviews about the Beatles - which have unfortunately become gospel for a lot of listeners and writers, though that work is being gradually undone - with a healthy dose of salt. 90% bluster and insecurity. For all he shot his mouth off, John was always as big a Paul fan as Paul was of him.

the science eel

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Re: Post Beatles Beatles relationships
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2018, 10:34:32 AM »
Though Lennon is quoted in several interviews as saying he doesn't like or follow McCartney's post-Beatles music, this was just bluster - people close to him have claimed that he followed it religiously. There are tons of messages exchanged between the two in song after the breakup, I think infinitely more than your 'How Do You Sleep's and 'Dear Friend's, and many references that we will probably never know or understand. Let's not forget that these two guys learned how to write songs sitting opposite each other as teenagers, and grew into two of the greats in each others' company and influence.

Yoko has said that she and Lennon listened to Red Rose Speedway and were moved to tears - it's always intrigued me as to why, although I think that's a quite misunderstood album with a lot of masked hurt and confusion on it. Contrary to conventional wisdom, photographer Bob Gruen said that Lennon loved 'Silly Love Songs,' and interpreted it as a personal message to him. There's another story from an aide or a producer where John is sitting in a meeting and a new Wings song starts playing incredibly faintly on the radio in the other room, and John's ears prick up at the sound of Paul's voice and he runs out of the room to listen to it. He also played 'Jet' when he hosted a New York radio show in 1974, saying he wanted to play 'Monkberry Moon Delight' but it was 'too long.'

Again, you have to take Lennon's interviews about the Beatles - which have unfortunately become gospel for a lot of listeners and writers, though that work is being gradually undone - with a healthy dose of salt. 90% bluster and insecurity. For all he shot his mouth off, John was always as big a Paul fan as Paul was of him.

Spot on.

Another thing worth mentioning is that the McCartney tracks we know Lennon was fond of weren't necessarily the ones you might think, knowing what we know about how JL hated 'fluff' and was always seen as the tougher, weirder partner in the songwriting partnership. I'm pretty sure he liked 'Coming Up' a lot, for example. And a lot of Lennon's last recordings were just as soppy - if not more so - than the likes of 'Silly Love Songs'.

Anyway this is well-worn territory. Remember when George died, and McC came out to meet the press and wobbled his head a bit about his 'little brother'?