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Post Beatles Beatles relationships

Started by biggytitbo, November 24, 2018, 10:20:20 PM

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Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: grassbath on December 05, 2018, 12:00:23 AM
On the topic of the Get Back tapes, there's a tremendous blog, amoralto, which has gone through the audio in painstaking detail, finding interesting moments, posting clips, transcribing and providing analysis.

Thanks for sharing that, grassbath, it's fascinating.

studpuppet

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on December 05, 2018, 08:14:34 PM
...but he's behaving as if George has just played him Shaddap You Face.

That was the first single I ever bought, you bastard.

Replies From View

Quote from: Beagle 2 on December 05, 2018, 08:13:52 PM
In fairness, the song is essentially having a pop at the rest of them, and is a complete stinker.

George had by this point endured plenty of Yoko screaming "JOHN!  JOHN!  JOHN!  JOHN!" over their attempts to rehearse.  Whether or not "I Me Mine" is a classic song is irrelevant when John was willing to tolerate Yoko's doodles but not George's truthful (ie personal, emotional responses to the situation he was in) compositions.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: studpuppet on December 05, 2018, 08:25:11 PM
That was the first single I ever bought, you bastard.

One of George's best (not George Best's best though).

Replies From View

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on December 05, 2018, 08:14:34 PM
"Run along son." I mean, really. Imagine playing a song to one of your band-mates and getting a reaction like that. It's not good-natured either, it's a blatantly rude, patronising dismissal of a perfectly decent piece of material. As MV says, no wonder George was so keen to go solo. I don't blame him at all.

Yes.  And - crucially - it's punching down.  Harrison had a hard time being seen through the Lennon-McCartney powerhouse, and needed to fight much harder than them to get his songs on the albums.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

It's John taking pleasure in belittling the efforts of a junior partner, knowing full well that George will take it to heart. John may have felt threatened by George's burgeoning talent - not that I Me Mine is a stellar example of that, but he was clearly becoming more accomplished - hence why he felt an insecure need to put him down. Keep the kid in his place.

Did John ever say anything complimentary about George's songwriting? When asked about All Things Must Pass, all he could muster was, "It's alright, it just went on too long."

biggytitbo

And despite that George goes and works with John on imagine doesn't he?


Ps/ I me mine is shit.

John's compositional contributions to the Get Back sessions were pretty minimal as well, the only new stuff of his to make the album was 'Dig a Pony' and 'Everybody Had a Hard Year'. Everything else is salvaged old compositions or jams. So maybe he was annoyed that songwriting was becoming so easy for young Harrison

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: biggytitbo on December 05, 2018, 09:10:32 PM
And despite that George goes and works with John on imagine doesn't he?

Ps/ I me mine is shit.

It doesn't really matter if you think it's shit or not, John was behaving like a prick there.

George working with John on Imagine proves that, despite everything, they still liked and respected each other. For all his faults, John Lennon seemed to be one of those people whose fundamental charm, honesty and sensitivity made him easy to forgive. He could be awful, but he could also be quite nice and generous. A complicated cat.

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on December 05, 2018, 09:24:10 PM
John's compositional contributions to the Get Back sessions were pretty minimal as well, the only new stuff of his to make the album was 'Dig a Pony' and 'Everybody Had a Hard Year'. Everything else is salvaged old compositions or jams. So maybe he was annoyed that songwriting was becoming so easy for young Harrison

I think so, yes. John was in a heroin funk, he wasn't coming up with the goods, whereas George was hitting a purple patch as a musician and songwriter. That must've rankled.

DrGreggles

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on December 05, 2018, 09:00:31 PM
Did John ever say anything complimentary about George's songwriting? When asked about All Things Must Pass, all he could muster was, "It's alright, it just went on too long."

A fair summary, I'd say.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: DrGreggles on December 05, 2018, 09:35:12 PM
A fair summary, I'd say.

It does go on too long, but there are some great songs on there. It's more than just 'alright'.

Sin Agog

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on December 05, 2018, 09:27:09 PM
It doesn't really matter if you think it's shit or not, John was behaving like a prick there.

George working with John on Imagine proves that, despite everything, they still liked and respected each other. For all his faults, John Lennon seemed to be one of those people whose fundamental charm, honesty and sensitivity made him easy to forgive. He could be awful, but he could also be quite nice and generous. A complicated cat.

Interviewer: "John was no angel."

George: "No, he wasn't.  But he was as well. He was."

DrGreggles

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on December 05, 2018, 09:46:25 PM
It does go on too long, but there are some great songs on there. It's more than just 'alright'.

It's only "alright" BECAUSE of all the filler.
There's a great single album in there.

no way lads almost every song on All Things Must Pass is top notch except the jams. side four is a bit of a dropoff but that's it. everything else is fucking stunning

Replies From View

All Things Must Pass would be infinitely better without Spector's over-production.

controversial view: I love Spector's production on All Things Must Pass, it makes the songs more grand and moving. Even the more excessive stuff like 'Awaiting On You All' is awesome. The soundscape he creates for 'Let It Roll' is the glittering fairy dust of moonlit dreams

even more controversial: I even love Spector's production on Leonard Cohen's Death of a Ladies Man

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

#136
I love Spector's production on ATMP too, it's perfectly in tune with the grand, dreamy, spiritual nature of George's material. I don't think it's overproduced, Replies, it's produced exactly as it should be.

Those songs needed to sound huge and otherworldly, just as the songs on Plastic Ono Band and Imagine needed to sound stripped-down and intimate. Spector was a great producer, he wasn't just some mad bloke who demanded that every song have 95 guitar parts whether it needed them or not. Well, sometimes he was, but you can't deny the visceral power and beauty of his greatest work.

He was occasionally guilty of a lack of taste and judgement*, but his instincts were often inspired.

*Like when he murdered that woman.

Cottonon

Watching the Break Up episode of those Understanding Lennon & McCartney youtube vids I was surprised they didn't mention McCartneys postcard that he left out on the mantelpiece when John and Yoko were living with him in St Johns Wood. I think it's in the Peter Brown book (?) and it's source was the autobiography of Francine Schwartz (the woman McCartney was dating at the time who can be seen in that clip of him playing Blackbird in the studio).

IIRC the postcard read "You and your jap artist think you're hot sh*t". Lennon comes down in the morning and reads it and asks what it is, McCartney says he did it the night before 'for a lark' and Schwartz describes Lennon simply staring at him in disbelief.

biggytitbo

It says on wikipedia of that incident that the note said 'you and your Jap tart think you're hot shit'.

It's slightly dubious that Schwartz is the only source of that, as it sounds exactly the kind of thing Lennon would have mentioned if true.

massive bereavement

Quote from: Beagle 2 on December 05, 2018, 08:13:52 PM
In fairness, the song is essentially having a pop at the rest of them

Exactly. After he'd done "Not Guilty" they were always going to be suspicious of anything he wrote and both John and Paul were fed up of him coming up with what they perceived to be negative dirges. Maybe the frustration at being unable conceive a child with Patti was getting to him, but those Get Back tapes reveal George to be an insufferable bore, a whiny little kid and a lousy guitarist for much of the time, they should have gone with John's suggestion at allowing him to leave and replacing him with Clapton. At least when he did return, it was George that instigated the addition of Billy Preston, which effectively saved that project.

Replies From View

John wasn't really in a position to be "fed up" with George or anyone.  Paul was holding it all together, as this example from the same day as John's I Me Mine jibing illustrates:

QuoteJanuary 8th, 1969: After John dismisses all of the songs he's come up with for the Get Back/Let It Be sessions, Paul asks John if he has written anything new to make up for it. He hasn't. No one is thrilled about this.   

PAUL: Haven't you written anything?

JOHN: [defiant] No.

PAUL: [tense] Haven't you. [pause] We'll be faced with a crisis, you know.

JOHN: When I'm up against the wall, Paul, you'll find I'm on my best—

PAUL: Yeah, I know, I know, but I just wish you'd come up with the goods.

JOHN: Now, look. I think I've got Sunday off.

PAUL: Yeah, well, I hope that you can deliver.

JOHN: I'm hoping for a little rock 'n' roller.

PAUL: [sarcastic] Yeah, I was hoping for the same thing, myself, you know.

JOHN: [mocking] "Sammy loved his mammy, she hammy dammy dammy..."

http://amoralto.tumblr.com/post/40106629367/january-8th-1969-after-john-dismisses-all-of-the

Jerzy Bondov

Quote from: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 12:49:29 PM
John wasn't really in a position to be "fed up" with George or anyone.  Paul was holding it all together, as this example from the same day as John's I Me Mine jibing illustrates:

http://amoralto.tumblr.com/post/40106629367/january-8th-1969-after-john-dismisses-all-of-the
I dunno when you listen to it, that one sounds a bit like they're just taking the piss. Paul puts on a silly American accent when he asks John to 'come up with the goods'. Truths said in jest I suppose.

SteveDave

Fuckinell. Imagine (har) being anywhere near John Lennon in that mood.

Nowhere Man

The most astonishing thing about the Get Back sessions is that its just about three months after The White album sessions, isn't that absolutely mental to think about? I know the White Album era wasn't exactly perfect for the band but it's such a fucking difference in atmosphere and in their rehearsals that it might as well be from a different decade. In hindsight it's amazing they held on as long as they did. Macca must have been near the verge of a breakdown (which he would have, just after the breakup) trying to keep them going at that point.


famethrowa

Quote from: Replies From View on December 06, 2018, 12:49:29 PM
John wasn't really in a position to be "fed up" with George or anyone.  Paul was holding it all together, as this example from the same day as John's I Me Mine jibing illustrates:

http://amoralto.tumblr.com/post/40106629367/january-8th-1969-after-john-dismisses-all-of-the

That is hilarious. Sounds like something out of the cartoons

Replies From View

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on December 06, 2018, 01:42:37 PM
I dunno when you listen to it, that one sounds a bit like they're just taking the piss. Paul puts on a silly American accent when he asks John to 'come up with the goods'. Truths said in jest I suppose.

He doesn't put on an American accent, and I can imagine with all that background noise they wouldn't be able to speak especially normally.

If they are taking the piss slightly, it's probably in a passive-aggressive sense.  Throughout these sessions I think they're feeling very conscious of the cameras, and are moderating their responses to one another, drifting constantly into whimsy and wordplay rather than bluntly having their arguments in the open.  When George announced that he was leaving the Beatles it was after an argument with John that wasn't recorded.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

I've been defending George in this thread, quite rightly I feel, but I'm still staggered by this act of utter pettiness on his part.

QuoteRingo's Rotogravure was released on 17 September 1976 in the UK, to a lukewarm response. Despite letting him record the song, Harrison was not pleased with Starr's version of "I'll Still Love You", and proceeded to take legal action against Starr, which was soon settled out of court.

Just let that sink in for a moment. Ringo recorded one of George's tunes. George didn't like what Ringo did with it, so he responded as any great pal would in that situation - he contacted his lawyers.

It's amazing they remained friends, but I guess their bond was too strong to let the trifling matter of utterly absurd legal action get in the way. Lucky old George, as Ringo had every right to fuck him off for good after that.


i think George spent much of the 70's in a dark, bitter, coked-out funk due to racking up a considerable number of personal and professional disappointments and it sounds like poor Ringo got it taken out on him, which sadly he was probably getting used to by that point

Beagle 2

They laugh about it here, George has a glint in his eye that he knew he was being a prick.

https://youtu.be/JQaqcLPAI_s

Weird interview all around that, Ringo is hilarious but he seems coked up or pissed. They're both oddly jovial about Lennon's death.