Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I think we should leave the EU and have a labour government, but whatever, the party appear to have settled on a non existent position, a position that can't ever exist - which is basically lying to the public isnt it?

They are keeping their powder dry for the eventual situation they're landed in so as to avoid negative public backlash. So in a sense yes, but in reality helping move closer to the Labour government you claim to want.

By the time this deal is voted down and the resulting Tory implosion occurs no-one will care that Labour were non-committal a few months previously. They will just listen to the solution being presented at that point in time, then make their judgement.

[Huxleys Babkins]

They are keeping their powder dry for the eventual situation they're landed in so as to avoid negative public backlash. So in a sense yes, but in reality helping move closer to the Labour government you claim to want.

By the time this deal is voted down and the resulting Tory implosion occurs no-one will care that Labour were non-committal a few months previously. They will just listen to the solution being presented at that point in time, then make their judgement.

Labour's only hope of getting out of this unscathed is to have Brexit having already happened before they come to power. If there is, somehow, an election before exit day, they'll have an absolute nightmare trying to navigate through this. They've made too many promises they won't be able to keep.

[Darles Chickens]

Not sure why I'm bothering to respond to Biggy, but anyway I would've thought the role of an MEP was fairly obvious.  The EU is the biggest entity which pertains directly to us, and has very high-level concerns which are indeed beyond the interest of many ordinary people, but which are nonetheless necessary when operating as a single frictionless trading bloc which needs to maintain shared rules and regulations.  But the fact that we have elected representation in it at all is a good thing.  If we were to become WTO mavericks and seek out some sell-out trade deal with the USA, through whom would people be able to voice their concerns or opinions as to how rules and regulations were made?  No one, that's who.

[biniput]

Not having the City of London dictate EU policy on financial regulation would be a very positive step.

The immensely corrupt German financial sector mostly calls the shots in the EU hence the shitty nature of the Euro, a currency with no real central bank.

The whole thing is a fake argument anyway as financial markets are a global thing, and London is the biggest financial market in the world - any regulation would have to be agreed with it and the other major centres like New York, Hong Kong and Tokyo. The European factor is of significantly less importance.

Where on earth did you get that from? There needs to be zero agreement on anything between such financial centres.

[Pseudopath]

The immensely corrupt German financial sector mostly calls the shots in the EU hence the shitty nature of the Euro, a currency with no real central bank.

I know...it's mad, isn't it? A currency with over €1.2 trillion in circulation and used by 19 first-world countries has no central supervisory authority to define monetary policy, maintain price stability or manage foreign currency reserves. Crazy.

Still...if there was such an organisation, I'd definitely call it the European Central Bank.

[Zetetic]

it seems a self evident fact that people don't want two MPs and two different parliaments (especially supranational ones), one is more than enough.

Again, are we talking about the UK or the EU?

[jobotic]

Setting aside your weird incomprehension that the European parliament means fuck all to the average voter in the UK, and the relationship with their MEP who they don't even know is non existent because its so remote and obscure, and that the MEP they have no connection to couldn't do anything about their issue if they wanted to, it seems a self evident fact that people don't want two MPs and two different parliaments (especially supranational ones), one is more than enough. It's a broken system by design because the EU isn't meant to be a democracy, by design. if it wasn't broken why did so many people vote to leave? Voter blaming isnt a good look.

Just because you say something in your "of course" way, does t make it true. An election that not many people vote in is still an election.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Not sure why I'm bothering to respond to Biggy, but anyway I would've thought the role of an MEP was fairly obvious.  The EU is the biggest entity which pertains directly to us, and has very high-level concerns which are indeed beyond the interest of many ordinary people, but which are nonetheless necessary when operating as a single frictionless trading bloc which needs to maintain shared rules and regulations.  But the fact that we have elected representation in it at all is a good thing.  If we were to become WTO mavericks and seek out some sell-out trade deal with the USA, through whom would people be able to voice their concerns or opinions as to how rules and regulations were made?  No one, that's who.

Precisely.

Division and dilution of democracy is inevitable if you want to live in a democratic area, and the wider the area the more division and dilution occurs and the less your power is.

This lessening of power is offset by a series of benefits on a macro scale that are akin to a village market being an improvement on individual agrarian subsistence. It is collectivism and co-operation, but even better than that, between nations that were former enemies.

The arguments as to why the EU is bad largely also apply to the UK Government, and county councils and city councils. It's largely the same argument.

This is why I am in favour of remaining and reforming much as I am in favour of a UK Government remaining and reforming, county councils remaining and reforming and local/city councils remaining and reforming.

Democracy is shagged because each step of the democratic ladder needs reforming, but not burning down.

[Replies From View]

It's a broken system by design because the EU isn't meant to be a democracy, by design. if it wasn't broken why did so many people vote to leave? Voter blaming isnt a good look.

So you think that the public always vote for the best option.  Always.

[canadagoose]

So you think that the public always vote for the best option.  Always.

The thought that the majority of the public is always right... Must be nice to be able to believe that! It's a bit of a, dare I say it, privilege.

[biggytitbo]

Blaming voters because they don't think much of your silly parliament, or simply didn't vote the way you like, is a bit petulant and dare I say it, anti-democratic isn't it?

[canadagoose]

Blaming voters because they don't think much of your silly parliament, or simply didn't vote the way you like, is a bit petulant and dare I say it, anti-democratic isn't it?

Anti-democratic till I die 🤘

[biggytitbo]

So you think that the public always vote for the best option.  Always.

Do you think should just disregard any democratic votes we don't like then?

[Zetetic]

Wish we could ban "at a record level" in the Commons. (Well, unless a proper denominator and inflation-adjustment is specified, perhaps. Maybe.)

[canadagoose]

Wish we could ban "at a record level" in the Commons. (Well, unless a proper denominator and inflation-adjustment is specified, perhaps. Maybe.)

Can we ban "I want to be very clear" and any variations of it while we're at it? Shite phrase.

[Fambo Number Mive]

ITV debate not happening.

I would like to see a leaders TV debate on Brexit, I think it is a shame all we have is the Channel 4 debate.

[biggytitbo]

Have we mentioned Corbyn making a commitment to a second referendum if May blocks an election? Not sure what he'd campaign for though, and nor is he I think.

[biniput]

I know...it's mad, isn't it? A currency with over €1.2 trillion in circulation and used by 19 first-world countries has no central supervisory authority to define monetary policy, maintain price stability or manage foreign currency reserves. Crazy.

Still...if there was such an organisation, I'd definitely call it the European Central Bank.

Oh dear yet another one who can't keep the superior tone down when getting things half right. The central bank of the Eu is like no other on earth. The worst of it is that there is zero common debt issuance like all other currencies which means zero problems are shared. Now this is a massive problem as it hamstrings governments from helping themselvs when things go wrong as they can't just issue bonds etc in a currency from a local central bank. This causes insane havoc as the EU central bank never intervenes even though every country with its own currency in history has done this. So we have what has been described as a currency that is little more than a glorified exchange rate mechanism. There are many other problems this causes as there is no way to deal with balance of payment transfers between parts of the EU and who the fuck would want that. We have Germany to thank for that as they have always had a policy of trade surplus which has its origin in the 1930s and maybe before. They have designed the Euro to make money of the countries they throw money at and it is a disgrace as they can make shit investments and take zero responsibility for it all. The EU central bank has only a fraction of the powers it should have and hence why most economists berate it and the EU for almost not existing.

[Replies From View]

Do you think should just disregard any democratic votes we don't like then?

Oops you're being disingenuous there.  Try again.

[Replies From View]

.

[Alberon]

Been offline due to the massive O2 fuckup earlier, so just saw this on the Guardian live feed about a meeting between May and some of her top ministers earlier. Sky's Beth Rigby tweeted-

NEW: Source tells me cabinet agreed they can't lose a vote by 200, but certainly no agreement on pulling the vote. Told a bit of general dismay that PM didn't fully put her cards on the table (but she never does)

So this is the best they can hope for now - not losing by more than 200.

They've got to pull this vote. It surely is too horrific for May and the Tories to go on.

[finnquark]

It's very difficult for them to pull the vote now, for various reasons. I was reading an article on Conservative Home just now about the Tory Whips being shit at their jobs. That absurd clip of Julian Smith trying to persuade a swivel eyed fanatic on ITV was absolutely ridiculous.

[Mr_Simnock]

They've got to pull this vote. It surely is too horrific for May and the Tories to go on.   

every single member of CaB should be willing/praying for this to go ahead, it's going to be fucking marvelous watching the ship sink.

[Funcrusher]

They've got to pull this vote. It surely is too horrific for May and the Tories to go on.

Government announces an official two week period of state mourning following the death of Pete Shelley, requiring a postponement of the vote.

[buzby]

Government announces an official two week period of state mourning following the death of Pete Shelley, requiring a postponement of the vote.

Phil The Greek maybe?

[Replies From View]

Phil The Greek maybe?

Extremely likely.  Apparently even the Cunt of Death calls him "Big Guns Funeral" at quiet moments.  This occasion could be just the one.

[Paul Calf]

Phil The Greek maybe?

Revolver and a bottle of whisky. He knows what to do.

[katzenjammer]

Do you think should just disregard any democratic votes we don't like then?

No. Just the ones where campaigns on the winning side broke the law, voters have based their decision on hundreds of myths and lies and millions of people most affected by the decision were denied a say.  Or perhaps you think we should ignore all of that when we like the result?

[biggytitbo]

No. Just the ones where campaigns on the winning side broke the law, voters have based their decision on hundreds of myths and lies and millions of people most affected by the decision were denied a say.  Or perhaps you think we should ignore all of that when we like the result?

So you think we should disregard the remain votes too then? Broke law - check, hundreds of myths and lies - check, millions of people denied a say - check. And your side had the worlds major power structures and elites engaging in a giant psychologic operation to terrify us into voting remain didnt it, but let's not mention that.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Why didn't any of these major power structures speak up for the EU ever prior to the referendum?
Why are the establishment party in the UK the most anti-EU?
Why were so many anti-EU campaigners very wealthy male entrepreneurs?