Countdown to AreMaygeddon (the s.t.b. ex-PM thread)

[Paul Calf]

This is fun, and inexplicable, the tories have invited a camera crew to film their total humilation and disintegration - https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/12/itv-chief-whip-julian-smith-brexit-vote-


Sounds like it might be the Let It Be of political documentaries.

Or they know something we don't.

Don't underestimate these weasels.

[Replies From View]

Or they know something we don't.

Don't underestimate these weasels.

I doubt they would invite a camera crew to join them without having a clear benefit in mind.

Presumably they think it'll help them be seen as more human, or something.  Also I imagine they'll relish the opportunity to keep attacking Labour for various made-up reasons.

[Huxleys Babkins]

Smith will probably be doing Tim From The Office looks to the camera every time a minister says something stupid in an attempt to salvage his career. Like how everyone felt sorry for Boris Johnson's staff in that documentary about his time as foreign secretary, even though, deep down, they are nasty Tory shits too.

[finnquark]

I doubt they would invite a camera crew to join them without having a clear benefit in mind.

Presumably they think it'll help them be seen as more human, or something.  Also I imagine they'll relish the opportunity to keep attacking Labour for various made-up reasons.

I mentioned yesterday that Conservative Home had an article condemning the whipping in the party, and the contributor who wrote that was damning about the TV access. Smith is the longest serving whip and he hasn't been there two years; Conservative Home reckoned they don't know their arse from their elbow, and good whips have been sacked by May.

[biggytitbo]

Lies such as pretending a bus like that existed when it didn't.

Nobody is claiming its a real bus, keep up! Someone photoshopped it to highlight the tissue of lies remain was based on, whilst banging on relentlessly about a bus. And they've kept lying too haven't they, we are taking note. As have the EU - 'this is the final final deal and there will be no more negotiations'. If that's not a lie they're calling Jeremy Corbyn a liar, which isnt very nice.

[BlodwynPig]

Nobody is claiming its a real bus, keep up! Someone photoshopped it to highlight the tissue of lies remain was based on, whilst banging on relentlessly about a bus. And they've kept lying too haven't they, we are taking note. As have the EU - 'this is the final final deal and there will be no more negotiations'. If that's not a lie they're calling Jeremy Corbyn a liar, which isnt very nice.

You know you'd still be welcome in my utopia. Pull up to the fire on your buffet, grab a few teacakes and we'll settle down for some serious 70s TV viewing.

[Replies From View]

Nobody is claiming its a real bus, keep up! Someone photoshopped it to highlight the tissue of lies remain was based on

Stupid thing to for them to do, wasn't it.  Strange choice of yours to keep taking their side, really.  And you keep banging on that your bus meme isn't a real fake bus instead of addressing the point.

Lies such as pretending a bus like that existed when it didn't.

And repeatedly posting an image of that bus even after you've been reminded that several decades' worth of lies from the UK press about the EU fatally undermines your fake bus meme anyway.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-eu-have-archived-all-of-the-euromyths-printed-in-uk-media-and-it-makes-for-some-disturbing-reading/14/11/

You have no arguments left, biggy.  Give it up.

Do keep up!  ;)

[mothman]

Heh! I'm back in the UK as the Titanic sinks.

Yeah? Better make a date to visit that Brazilian restaurant then, while there still are such things as restaurants.

[Blumf]

Heh! I'm back in the UK as the Titanic sinks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_II

Titanic II is a planned ocean liner intended to be a functional modern-day replica of the Olympic-class RMS Titanic.

Hijack the fucker and plough it straight into the nearest iceberg come the 29^th of March.

[biggytitbo]

Stupid thing to for them to do, wasn't it.  Strange choice of yours to keep taking their side, really.  And you keep banging on that your bus meme isn't a real fake bus instead of addressing the point.

Do keep up!  ;)

I'm talking specifically about the remain lies in the 2016 referendum, but if you want to go trawling through the past let's not forget the biggest and most important lie in this entire thing, the one from 1973 and 1975, when we were told we were joining a common market with some 'cooperation', when they knew full well we were actually surrendering sovereignty and decided to withhold that from the voters -



https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/acft/FCO+30+1048.pdf

[Darles Chickens]

Not so much surrendering sovereignty as sharing sovereignty. It's inevitable if you wish to maintain frictionless trade with other nations. But at least we get a say in it. Once again, I ask you: in the UK-US trade deal which some Brexiteers wet their pants thinking about, we will have the same issue, but isn't it worse that we "da peeple" will have zero influence over it whatsoever? And you know it'll just be a race to the bottom in terms of standards and regulations. That really would be like surrendering sovereignty.

[BlodwynPig]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_II
Hijack the fucker and plough it straight into the nearest iceberg come the 29^th of March.

I leave again on 7th January.

[biggytitbo]

Not so much surrendering sovereignty as sharing sovereignty. It's inevitable if you wish to maintain frictionless trade with other nations. But at least we get a say in it. Once again, I ask you: in the UK-US trade deal which some Brexiteers wet their pants thinking about, we will have the same issue, but isn't it worse that we "da peeple" will have zero influence over it whatsoever? And you know it'll just be a race to the bottom in terms of standards and regulations. That really would be like surrendering sovereignty.

Even if that's true, if it was sold back in the 70s on the basis that we'd have to 'share' some sovereignty with the EU, we wouldn't have joined. That's why they withheld what they were told in that document I linked too from the voters - which is the ultimate, foundational lie in this entire issue.

[Replies From View]

Even if that's true, if it was sold back in the 70s on the basis that we'd have to 'share' some sovereignty with the EU, we wouldn't have joined.

Evidence needed that we wouldn't have joined.

You'd have to have been pretty daft to think between 1973-75 that joining the EU meant Britain would be running the whole thing.

But I suspect you already know that you are over-egging this.

[finnquark]

Evidence needed that we wouldn't have joined.

You'd have to have been pretty daft to think between 1973-75 that joining the EU meant Britain would be running the whole thing.

But I suspect you already know that you are over-egging this.

The 1975 referendum saw numerous Labour front benchers mentioning pooled sovereignty in their campaigns. The debate between Benn and Jenkins contains a full discussion of sovereignty, with both men treating the voters like adults.

[biggytitbo]

Edward Heath told voters at the time, knowing his civil events had very specifically warned him the opposite was true -

There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified."

[Zetetic]

No, that's an interpretation of your part that relies on understanding "independence" and "sovereignty" in a manner thats not really justifiable in that context.

Any agreement with someone else subsequently infringes on your "independence" given a broad enough understanding of the concept. You'll shit brix when you read the GFA.

[Cuellar]

I am very tired

[Johnny Yesno]

I am very tired

People with a child's rudimentary understanding of language will do that to you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QVPUIRGthI

[Cuellar]

Who's that long-haired hippy. Spell in the army would do him the world of good.

[biggytitbo]

No, that's an interpretation of your part that relies on understanding "independence" and "sovereignty" in a manner thats not really justifiable in that context.

Any agreement with someone else subsequently infringes on your "independence" given a broad enough understanding of the concept. You'll shit brix when you read the GFA.

No its quite clear we were very specifically misled about what joining the common market meant, and we've discussed many times there is absolutely no legal or constitutional doubt that membership of the EU does involve voluntarily surrendering our sovereignty. Except it wasn't voluntarily because the British people didn't know it was happening, even though the politicians did.

[Alberon]

This isn't about Theresa May, is it?

If only we had a Brexit thread.

[olliebean]

The 1975 referendum saw numerous Labour front benchers mentioning pooled sovereignty in their campaigns. The debate between Benn and Jenkins contains a full discussion of sovereignty, with both men treating the voters like adults.

This is a vitally important point. If you treat the voters like children, a good proportion of them will behave like children. The Brexit vote was essentially 17 million infantilised voters throwing their toys out of the pram, having failed to realise that this leaves them with no toys.

[sick as a pike]

Grimly amusing from Michael Heseltine on R4 earlier: "Theresa May's greatest strength is that no-one has the slightest idea who could replace her."

[mothman]

This is a vitally important point. If you treat the voters like children, a good proportion of them will behave like children. The Brexit vote was essentially 17 million infantilised voters throwing their toys out of the pram, having failed to realise that this leaves them with no toys.

Not arguing. But one could argue (Biggy probably won't) that many of them felt their toys were already broken... or were about to be broken by brown people.

[olliebean]

Not arguing. But one could argue (Biggy probably won't) that many of them felt their toys were already broken... or were about to be broken by brown people.

Yes, and our politicians indulged them in that childish belief rather than explain the truth to them like adults, which is precisely the point.

[BlodwynPig]

This isn't about Theresa May, is it?

If only we had a Brexit thread.

I think that Theresa May...

Theresa May today...

...willing Theresa May...

Theresa May...or may not...

Theresa May... exit

Theresa Mexit...

Theresrexit...

Brexit...

[biggytitbo]

This is a vitally important point. If you treat the voters like children, a good proportion of them will behave like children. The Brexit vote was essentially 17 million infantilised voters throwing their toys out of the pram, having failed to realise that this leaves them with no toys.

The remain vote was 16m, not 17m!!


But seriously, what a pathetic piece of sneering, contemptuous snobbery. Have a word with yourself.

[Blumf]

This isn't about Theresa May, is it?

If only we had a Brexit thread.

She's so hopeless she can't even keep a thread dedicated to her on topic.

[pancreas]

But seriously, what a pathetic piece of sneering, contemptuous snobbery. Have a word with yourself.

I am forced to agree with Biggy. Ffs.

Within the Brexit voting population, there are a large number of selfish xenophobic pampered gammons, who live in their 3 bedroom semis and want to send the bastards back. But they, on their own, are not the full story.

There are also the systematically uneducated people who are fed to the teeth with shitty tabloid/Wetherspoons propaganda and—mainly—utterly let down by 40 years of neoliberal government, yes, but these are not children throwing toys out of prams. Some of them have no toys.