Tommy Robinson using UKIP as a vehicle for fascism

[Monsieur Verdoux]

He obviously did have an idea about the far-right infiltration of the EDL, that's why he left it.

sir i was wondering if you'd like to buy the Brooklyn bridge, got a really good offer here

[Bhazor]

The same old broken record of identity as found in the hurr durr short versions of this post - 'of course feminists, black and trans people are the real villains here'. As said by no one.

I've seen that said hundreds of times actually. You never hear the slogan "Obama put a man in the girls bathroom" or "Two scoops two genders two terms" or hundreds of other unimaginative hateful little chants? But of course we don't like to think about people who think like this. Much better to ascribe noble reasons to them.

But it needs to be understood why at this point scapegoats are necessary and for what. I think that possibly in your strange worldview we are moving towards an egalitarian utopia in which straight white males are deposed from their throne, and this is why Trump. In fact we are moving via off-shoring, automation, corporate control of politics, destruction of unions and the slow collapse of neo-liberal capitalism towards some neo-feudal dystopia, and the sense of instability and fear this is causing is being channelled into blaming ethnic others, as has happened in the past. There wasn't any achievable change available to vote for in the last US election - corporate control of politics saw it off.

I fail to see the imminent apocalypse you're talking about or any need for any scapegoats. In the last century we have seen a rate of development undreamt of in human history. From an era of colonialism to an era of instantaneous world wide media. From Wright Brothers to super sonic jets. From a time when the spinning jenny was the height of automation to a 1000 cars made by 4 humans in a factory of machines. But no these are the darkest days, imminent collapse, busses running late, build walls for gods sake walls keep the zombie hordes back! In living memory we have gone from very literal colonial slavery to very literal nazis to very literal facists to the modern day's dreaded neoliberal (truly the scariest). Now I'm supposed to be cacking myself that in 10 years my job will be automated and a corporation will be running the local busses? This is the last century of capitalism. 3D printing and machine learning are going to destroy more jobs than anyone and I mean anyone can possibly imagine. They already have an annual competition where 3D printers build an entire house with prizes for style and speed.  You talk about end of unions how do you feel about the entire construction team being reduced to two men and a glorified caulk gun? Or meat produced with a fraction of the labour (and not a drop of blood) made from a handful of genetically diddled weeds? Is it a utopia? Fuck knows. I just hope we haven't nuked each other or melted the planet by then. Two platforms that all these far right groups seem to have in common what with their love of rock hard borders with big shiny guns and disdain for that climate change conspiracy.

[sevendaughters]

Occam's Bhazor: When Whiggism is confused with "progress"

[Johnny Yesno]

I don't think this makes much sense for a number of reasons 1) the EU isn't locking us into any 'economic model' (it might, at most, be a manifestation of power relations that do so but leaving won't change this and risks exacerbating this) and 2) Leaving the EU wasn't sold on the basis of escaping any such 'economic model' (if anything, economically, it was largely sold on the basis of going deeper into it, with the emphasis on 'free trade') and 3) lots of Leave voters weren't from 'hollowed out communities' (even if they disproportionately were).

1 has been done to death. The EU doesn't prevent the state building housing, owning public good providers (or establishing them as non-profits or other such alternatives), effectively privileging such providers, prevent raising minimum working conditions or wages, prevent progressive wealth and income taxation, prevent more effective and egalitarian use of state capital (e.g. local investment banks). In the few situations where it might be argued that it does on paper, we can clearly show by example that it doesn't in practice - leaving has a decent probability of changing this, by lending the EU's member states better weapons in the context of FTAs and indeed opening us up to many others' retribution (given the emphasis on FTAs with the rest of the world).

On 2, we know that the Leave campaign emphasised spending claims which are entirely within the hands of the Westminster administration, immigration (but interestingly mostly of a form largely irrelevant to our membership of the EU), and nebulous concepts of 'sovereignty' and 'control'. Taking the last of these at face value (rather than a way of making xenophobic discourse more palatable), again leaving threatens this. Much was also made in the popular campaigns of the EU holding back British industry - not because of state aid, but because of regulation and limiting the extent to which we could engage with 'free trade' with the rest of the world (thereby locking us into more agreements intended to limit domestic economic policy).

And regarding 3, we know that plenty of fairly well-off people from healthy communities (setting aside endemic racism and ignorance) voted to Leave.

Brexit is both a symptom and will, yes, be a cause of growing support for xenophobic authoritarian politics. It is a perfect policy to do so - it vaguely attaches a bunch of genuine ills to half-way credible but ultimately false supposed causes. We'll attack those causes, to end except perhaps making some of those ills worse, and yet it'll grow the association and the general desire to blame Others.

It's a bit of an odd choice, on the part of 'people', to return another Conservative government - an exceptionally unattractive and incompetent one at that - under the circumstances.

I'm not saying that they don't care about those things - that's why the Leave campaign used some of these things to convince them to vote for them - but that doesn't mean that they have a good grip on who will deliver them and how.

It's also worth remembering that the vast majority of this country are enormously better off than the 10% or 20% worst off in this country. Even the bottom 30-40% are very different bunch to the bottom 10% - either considering wealth or income.

Excellent posts. Unfortunately, the problem with the truly stupid is that they are too stupid to realise when they have had their arse handed to them.

[biggytitbo]

I don't think this makes much sense for a number of reasons 1) the EU isn't locking us into any 'economic model' (it might, at most, be a manifestation of power relations that do so but leaving won't change this and risks exacerbating this)

You appear to have overlooked the central tenets of the common market, the so called 4 pillars, are the same as free market fundementalism, you know the stuff that's basically brought the western world to its knees? If thats not locking us into an economic model then what the hell is? And as we've discussed many times but you refuse to accept, the EU is obsessed with 'market liberalisation' and a 'level playing field', which are euphemisms for thatcherism, you know the thing that's brought the UK to its knees?

[Zetetic]

You appear to have overlooked the central tenets of the common market, the so called 4 pillars, are the same as free market fundementalism

No, they're not. (I'm assuming you mean the four freedoms, rather than the three pillars or the five arkān.)

brought the western world to its knees

brought the UK to its knees?

What? Neither of things have been brought to their knees.

And as we've discussed many times but you refuse to accept

Interestingly, to my mind, I've repeatedly corrected you that the EU is indeed obsessed with marketisation but that this is not the same as 'neoliberalism'.

[Zetetic]

That's also a gross minimisation of Thatcherism.

[Zetetic]

Also interesting - the results when searching for biggytibo's previous posts on "level playing field". The most relevant of these seems to involve advocating that one of the four freedoms doesn't go far enough, curiously.

Anyway, direct state aid is presumably the main issue here (rather than indirect support like improving education and training, or spending more money on public services, or providing capital via public local investment banks - none of which pose any issue, as far as I know, and indeed EU-directed funds are often a major source of funding for these sorts of things in countries of the UK despised by the Westminster administration).

The steel industry is probably the best example you can come up with, because of the EU's particularly restrictive rules and even there we could have and could still be doing a lot more to support the industry (if we, as a country, think that's sensible) and if not there's nothing preventing support for retraining the people and directing investment to the communities involved (we might note the contrast with Thatcherism here, assuming we're not an ass).

And there's nothing stopping us advocating, with fellow member states, to relax the rules. And what happens if we just ignore the rules (my favourite option, of course)? Probably: referral to Commission, argue the toss, deal with it a decade later, cheers for now - those are locks of sorts, sure.

What does it look like when we're outside of the EU? What do the member states do in response to a third country ramping up subsidies or decreasing working conditions regulations? Well, if it's a huge trading partner and rapidly expanding market for EU goods and services they might just impose massive import duties. I wonder what they'd do to Britain.

That's not me saying everything's fine about this situation, but recognising that leaving the EU doesn't change the motivations of the member states (other than perhaps to make them more protective of the status quo) and, at best, puts them in a position of greater power over us.

[Zetetic]

(And all of that focuses of state aid to the exclusion of almost everything that's in the Labour manifesto. Which, wet though I am, seems like quite lot of stuff to get on with as part of reworking the economics of this country.)

[Johnny Yesno]

biggy 'two arses' titbo.

[Funcrusher]

I've seen that said hundreds of times actually. You never hear the slogan "Obama put a man in the girls bathroom" or "Two scoops two genders two terms" or hundreds of other unimaginative hateful little chants? But of course we don't like to think about people who think like this.

Like I say, I think you like to think about it a lot and fearlessly go where others fear to tread.

I fail to see the imminent apocalypse you're talking about or any need for any scapegoats.

Lucky you. Personally I see cavernous and ever increasing inequality leading to declining standards of living for many, and there seem to be some commentators who agree with my peculiar view of things.

In the last century we have seen a rate of development undreamt of in human history. From an era of colonialism to an era of instantaneous world wide media. From Wright Brothers to super sonic jets. From a time when the spinning jenny was the height of automation to a 1000 cars made by 4 humans in a factory of machines. In living memory we have gone from very literal colonial slavery to very literal nazis to very literal facists to the modern day's dreaded neoliberal (truly the scariest).

Hey, Francis Fukuyama's getting the band back together.

But no these are the darkest days, imminent collapse, busses running late, build walls for gods sake walls keep the zombie hordes back... I'm supposed to be cacking myself that in 10 years my job will be automated and a corporation will be running the local busses?

Um, okay. This doesn't sound insanely complacent at all.

This is the last century of capitalism. 3D printing and machine learning are going to destroy more jobs than anyone and I mean anyone can possibly imagine. They already have an annual competition where 3D printers build an entire house with prizes for style and speed.

Cool Elon, move fast and break things. Shame about all those people sleeping rough in San Francisco, but we're on the way to an Objectivist paradise of jet packs and holidays on the moon.

You talk about end of unions how do you feel about the entire construction team being reduced to two men and a glorified caulk gun?

Not great, really, given the gig economy serfdom that probably awaits the surplus labour, given that they don't own the means of production and probably nothing will be done to create new jobs that pay a living wage. Still, jet packs.

Two platforms that all these far right groups seem to have in common what with their love of rock hard borders with big shiny guns and disdain for that climate change conspiracy.

Oh, the far right. I'm sure they won't flourish under this techno utopia, as there's no reason for concern or a search for scapegoats, as everything will be fine. This has been...interesting.

[biggytitbo]

No, they're not. (I'm assuming you mean the four freedoms, rather than the three pillars or the five arkān.)

Yes, indeed they are. Here's a nice simple explanation - https://tonywilkinson.com/2016/11/25/fundamentalism-and-the-eu-four-freedoms/

What? Neither of things have been brought to their knees.

There was me thinking the period from the 2008 crash to Trump and Brexit where a crisis for the West and the UK!

[Zetetic]

There was me thinking the period from the 2008 crash to Trump and Brexit where a crisis for the West and the UK!

Of what sort of order? If you think this constitutes a supranational civilisation "being brought to your knees" then you have a weirdly calibrated scale of catastrophe.

I sometimes wonder that part of the problem with Britain, in contrast to the mainland of Europe, is its collective experience (and subsequent memory) of the middle of the 20th century was an absolute piece of piss and that our imagination struggles with a nation-scale calamity that might involve more than a few tens of thousands dead and cathedral or two being knocked about a bit. (But then I usually conclude this is neat bit of pat theorising that's unlikely to be terribly instructive.)

Here's a nice simple explanation

With a fair degree of nonsense, including the usual multifacetedly-wrong claim that we've been flooded with unavoidably cheap labour. (And it's not like I generally think the author is a complete fuckwit or anything.)

[TrenterPercenter]

If thats not locking us into an economic model then what the hell is?

This is bollocks.  Capitalism was not invented by the EU, you can leave the EU and still remain tied to a neo-liberal model of economics.

The EU is considered socially-economic in comparison to the much of the rest of the world, your big hitters in the leave camp are literally salivating at making the UK a tax haven or a little US.............which was the real place where neo-liberal policies brought the world to its knees.

Get a grip.

[manticore]

In this very thread we've had someone saying poor Tommy was innocent and had no idea at all about the presence of nazis and far right wackos in the group he founded.

How is that relevant? And your quote was criticising biggytitbo but conflating what he was saying with what Autopsy Turvey was saying, which is absolutely obfuscating because they were not saying the same things.

You accuse the elite liberals of having patronising views of the flyover states and then invoke the "salt of the earth" "dirty hands sweat on their brow" working classes. Thanklessly toiling the field with their bare hands. When combined farming and industry make up less than a quarter of the employment in those states. With most of the jobs in those sectors being done in an office with ever increasing automation on the factory floor.

There was no romanticising in what I said. I'm not the slightest bit interested in fetishiising any mythical 'salt of the earth' and you know it. I was pointing out snobbery.

'Redneck' is employed to stigmatise entire populations whose roots and culture are seen to be in poor white farmers, sharecroppers etc., whatever forms of employment the occupy now, and the term derives its snobbish contempt from that. I would suggest that a large part of the mixed pride and resentment people about the term feel comes from that knowledge.

It's very interesting to read about Hurricane Katrina and find out what you wouldn't have known from the vastly skewed coverage - the damage and destruction was devastating over huge rural areas and New Orleans was just one element of it. People there are aware that big media reality and conspicuous compassion isn't reality and is reserved for the cities, People (more) Like Us. That kind of thing generates distrust and rancour.

If they don't want to be patronised and made fun by those damned aloof coastal liberals they could try and meet them half way. Like by not encouraging this shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezENqnD_yGg

Or not voting for Gianforte a man who not only assaulted a journalist but also gave millions of tax dollars to a creationist museum which includes a diorama of a man reading the bible sat next to a dinosaur.

This is the face of american conservatism no one likes talking about. Nothing to do with salt of the earth calloused hands. This is the single biggest voting block of the republicans and because of the magic of gerrymandering their votes are worth three times more than them thar city folks.

That's utterly silly and disingenuous. It's the face of american conservatism that everyone likes talking about, at least in the in the sort of bubbles the people who control much of public discourse inhabit. Fox News and the rest with their pretend concern play on exactly the resentment that that fosters, that's part of their appeal, and it works. Meanwhile 'liberal' MSNBC is beloved of conspiracy theorists who worship Rachel Maddow, despite the fact that for most of the population the Russia collusion crap is one of the least of their concerns.

Sanders has gone some of the way to adressing that by talking about real economic issues that affect people, and that's part of the reason for his relative popularity.

[biggytitbo]

With a fair degree of nonsense, including the usual multifacetedly-wrong claim that we've been flooded with unavoidably cheap labour. (And it's not like I generally think the author is a complete fuckwit or anything.)

Economic studies have shown that free movement does depress wages at the low and unskilled end, you know the kind of people that voted to leave. So it is a thing, just one that doesn't affect most remain voters.

[Zetetic]

the low and unskilled end, you know the kind of people that voted to leave.

These are not the only people who voted to leave, even if they did so disproportionately.

Economic studies have shown that free movement does depress wages at

The magnitude of any impact in the UK has been extremely small. Particularly at the lowest end, because wages there are largely determined by the minimum wage. (Again, it's interesting to consider the difference between the worst-off and the below-median.)

Noting, again, that there's nothing stopping the UK raising the minimum wage or minimum conditions or putting more resources into enforcing these.

Or using any of the far more powerful levers at its disposal - most obviously council tax and VAT, but also public services and cash benefits.

(A case that didn't involve trying to return us to serfdom might focus on the mobility of capital, instead. But that's harder to ally to claims that some of fellow citizens, just aren't like us you know and they shouldn't have to mix with us and vice-versa. )

[Zetetic]

We might also want to consider the impact of the immediate handling of the 2008 crisis and the imposition of austerity in the UK before we decide to stick the boot into other workers.

[jobotic]

Economic studies have shown that free movement does depress wages at the low and unskilled end, you know the kind of people that voted to leave. So it is a thing, just one that doesn't affect most remain voters.

Why do you persist with this shit?

[Jittlebags]

Economic studies have shown that free movement does depress wages at the low and unskilled end, you know the kind of people that voted to leave. So it is a thing, just one that doesn't affect most remain voters.

I doubt that your average Daily Mail reader falls into that category, and in terms of heat per square metre, they appear to be the most frenzied advocates of Brexit. So what, as Bob Mortimer might ask, is their 'specific beef'?

[Johnny Yesno]

Why do you persist with this shit?

Too stupid to realise he's had his third arse handed to him. Just how many arses does he have?

[manticore]

This is the study that I've always relied on when trying to understand who voted to leave or remain. I do realise it's probably been discussed before and a lot of it isn't exactly news, but what the hey.

Leave voting is strongly correlated with low income and economic insecurity, marginalisation, fewer educational qualifications and with living in 'left behind' areas; but also greater age, not being BAME, and most strongly with social conservatism.

A crucial section of the population that are

'left behind' by rapid economic change and feel cut adrift from the mainstream consensus

voted to leave. I would think that those people would tend to identify social liberalism with the forces causing their economic marginalisation, which is of course a classic syndrome, and a horrible tangled mess.

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities?gclid=Cj0KCQiAoo7gBRDuARIsANeJKUaRxmwMFry6rp4bSCiYhrKBzGCgPo10gtY2l4l4TQuAOcV5M4jEPBUaAjj0EALw_wcB

----------------------------------

It's also worth remembering that the vast majority of this country are enormously better off than the 10% or 20% worst off in this country. Even the bottom 30-40% are very different bunch to the bottom 10% - either considering wealth or income.

But a huge proportion of the population is economically precarious, and feels it. I don't think the gulf is so great in reality.

"Economic insecurity now stretches right throughout our labour market, including within jobs that appear safe on the surface,"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jan/25/uk-workers-chronically-broke-study-economic-insecurity

[Zetetic]

I don't think anyone's arguing against the existence of those correlations or that their not important. But nor do they allow you to characterise the entirety of the Leave vote as the left-behind, even while that's an important section of that vote.

The discussion of attitudes and demographics, their relationship and relative predictive strength, is worth reading and re-reading.

But a huge proportion of the population is economically precarious, and feels it.

Sure, although we might have different ideas of a 'huge' proportion. Although self-reported precariousness is always tricky as we should know from the occasional Telegraph article reporting the difficulties of getting by on dual £160k incomes and the like.

(Edit: We should also bear in mind: How much of this huge proportion are pensioners? And children?)

I don't think the gulf is so great in reality.

I disagree, and I think that this minimises the state that the very worst off in our society find themselves. We're still talking about millions of people.

The article does raise the problem that a lack of cash savings is widespread (and, yes, that is a bad thing), but it ignores that some of those people with have substantial wealth in other forms (most obviously housing, and this does inform their political motivations of course) while others emphatically do not.

[Autopsy Turvey]

sir i was wondering if you'd like to buy the Brooklyn bridge, got a really good offer here

Why did he leave the EDL then? Genuine question, everything I can find on the subject suggests his dismay at the infiltration of racists and violent tactics. Obviously he was playing with fire with that name, as soon as I heard it I thought 'oof', but I knew nothing of the problems that places like Luton were experiencing with badly-managed mass immigration and Islamist extremism and the blind eyes being turned by authorities terrified of rocking the race boat.

To be clear, I've no intention of ever giving him any money, joining any of his marches or voting for him (or anyone else, the Tory majority here is always about a million). I'm looking for cogent and rational arguments backing up accusations of fascism and racism. Because bandying these terms around to describe people with any criticism of foreign religious dogma or concerns for social cohesion in their neighbourhood will result in the terms becoming (even more) weakened and confused, and a generation will grow up regarding them as meaningless leftist expletives and nothing to be ashamed of. What then?

[Monsieur Verdoux]

he's a grifter, he fucked it off as soon as he worked out that the group would impair his ability to get decent media gigs. that's extremely obvious to everyone who isn't a credulous fuckwit like Maajid Nawaz

[Paul Calf]

Why did he leave the EDL then?

Because he has ambition and thought he'd outgrown the EDL.

The EDL has always been a cesspool of Nazi fuckwits. When they rampaged through Manchester 9 years ago, the air was thick with stiffened arms and 'Sieg Heil's. So he just noticed, did he?

[Buelligan]

I sometimes wonder that part of the problem with Britain, in contrast to the mainland of Europe, is its collective experience (and subsequent memory) of the middle of the 20th century was an absolute piece of piss and that our imagination struggles with a nation-scale calamity that might involve more than a few tens of thousands dead and cathedral or two being knocked about a bit. (But then I usually conclude this is neat bit of pat theorising that's unlikely to be terribly instructive.)

I think this is so true.  This idea of British exceptionalism, I think it's a big part of the reason many people feel comfortable in the face of imminent Brexit.  They actually think that nothing can happen to them because they live in the UK.  It's the same with Americans.

[Paul Calf]

I think it's more so with Americans. It's easy to maintain a fearless, bellicose stance when the entirety of your living memory of war is of sending some brave young men to a place you can't locate with an atlas and seeing almost all of them come back. Even the ones who don't are kept out of sight, wrapped in flags and thirteenth-hour concern.

When your folk memory of war is of soldiers from neighbouring countries marching into your homes and raping, stealing and murdering before burning the town to the ground, appetite for war tends to be diminished.

[manticore]

I don't think anyone's arguing against the existence of those correlations or that their not important. But nor do they allow you to characterise the entirety of the Leave vote as the left-behind, even while that's an important section of that vote.

Yes, that's why I said

A crucial section of the population

not 'the entirety of the Leave vote'. An important question would be how many of Yaxley-Lennon's supporters come from this portion of society.

I'm quite aware that there are also people at the other end, like for example my economically comfortable Dad, who voted Leave mainly out of notions of soveriegnty (which I think somewhat disguised a more primitive nationalist sentiment) , and my m/c liberal Mum's bridge-playing friends, from whom she has to endure all sorts of xenophobia and barely-disguised racism as they justify their vote.

I disagree, and I think that this minimises the state that the very worst off in our society find themselves. We're still talking about millions of people.

I don't think there's as much difference as you imply between the situation of people in the pit of immiseration and those skirting the treacherous edge. Great masses of people are in a state of underlying fear, and that's how people are controlled and kept in line under neoliberalism, it's an integral part of how it works.

According to Fazi and Mitchell's account, the EU has been actively playing its part in maintaining that social discipline since the '70s (I would be happy to hear counter arguments to their version of events).

https://braveneweurope.com/thomas-fazi-and-william-mitchell-the-eu-cannot-be-democratised-heres-why

[Zetetic]

Yes, that's why I said

Apologies if I it felt like I was mischaracterising you - I should have made clearer that I was re-establishing the context for my posts.