Tommy Robinson using UKIP as a vehicle for fascism

[Zetetic]

I don't think Bill Mitchell, who manticore links to above, is wrong for the most part (although he overstates his conclusions and neglects the rest of the EU), but a couple of points are worth bearing in mind - particularly if we're talking about Brexit:

- Whatever the supposed 'power' of the ECJ, we still have to consider how its judgements are actually enforced. It's odd how few people are prepared to talk about this.
- The treaties that Mitchell describes as 'embedd[ing] neoliberalism' are overwhelmingly inherent to free trade agreements. We might argue that we want to end free trade with Europe, but no seems to be doing so. Certainly not Labour, as far as I can see.
- We aren't in the Euro. We were a major example of a country in the EU maintaining control over its own monetary policy (which Mitchell sees as fundamental to the praxis of his theory of macroeconomics, I note).

[biggytitbo]

I think this is so true.  This idea of British exceptionalism, I think it's a big part of the reason many people feel comfortable in the face of imminent Brexit.  They actually think that nothing can happen to them because they live in the UK.  It's the same with Americans.

Is it really so true? Compared to what? What about the 1970s for instance? Outside of actual wartime that was probably the most traumatic decade in modern British history. Year after year of economic and political turmoil, endless strikes, power cuts, the 3 day week, the winter of discontent, rampant inflation,  a currency collapse and having to go to the imf for an emergency loan, 100s murdered in IRA bombings, a plot to overthrow the prime minister and the constant spectre of total annihilation.

Those that lived through that madness (and were sold the biggest lie of the age - 'joining the common market was just a trading arrangement') are what, in their 60s and more now? More likely to have voted brexit too. You might make the argument that those whose lives and communities were ripped apart by the destruction of thatcherism in the 80s were more likely to have voted brexit too.

The spoilt sods.

[Zetetic]

100s murdered in IRA bombings

Sutton Index reckons 68 deaths from IRA attacks in Britain in the '70s.

But, yes, also candles and having to wait a bit for someone to pick the bins up, so a lot like living in France, Germany, or Poland in the '40s.

[Zetetic]

46 of those 68 deaths were 'civilians' (i.e. not British Army or IRA members themselves).

[Zetetic]

By way of contrast, one of my partner's grandmothers spent two months in a city with a little over an average of 3,000 civilians being executed per day.

[biggytitbo]

Sutton Index reckons 68 deaths from IRA attacks in Britain in the '70s.

But, yes, also candles and having to wait a bit for someone to pick the bins up, so a lot like living in France, Germany, or Poland in the '40s.

So we're a bit flabby and spoilt because we're not living in the Warsaw ghetto?

[Zetetic]

Like I said, I think it's a bit of pat theory, attractive though it is. Thought Paul Calf's use of "folk memory" gave it a pleasant veneer of respectability, so I'm cheered by that.

What that post was mostly doing, however, was seeking to establish more accurately the actual impact of 'IRA bombings' in Britain during the '70s. (The Sutton Index might be slightly wrong, of course, but 'hundreds' of deaths in Britain seems a fanciful ... invention to me.)

It might be worth a reminder that this originates with you describing the UK in 2018 as "on its knees" and my wondering whether this reflects a healthily calibrated appraisal of national disaster. (Not that I'm seeking to minimise a great many individuals' experience of the 2008 depression and its aftermath, but you were talking of 'the West' and 'the UK'.)

[Paul Calf]

Is it really so true? Compared to what? What about the 1970s for instance? Outside of actual wartime that was probably the most traumatic decade in modern British history. Year after year of economic and political turmoil, endless strikes, power cuts, the 3 day week, the winter of discontent, rampant inflation,  a currency collapse and having to go to the imf for an emergency loan, 100s murdered in IRA bombings, a plot to overthrow the prime minister and the constant spectre of total annihilation.

Those that lived through that madness (and were sold the biggest lie of the age - 'joining the common market was just a trading arrangement') are what, in their 60s and more now? More likely to have voted brexit too. You might make the argument that those whose lives and communities were ripped apart by the destruction of thatcherism in the 80s were more likely to have voted brexit too.

The spoilt sods.

With free university, plentiful employment, a decent welfare state, a decent state pension, affordable public transport owned by the people who used it, strong unions to protect the dignity of workers. But those bin strikes: A veritable cacotopia of uncollected household waste.

[biggytitbo]

I think it's a bit trivial to describe it as a few bin strikes, it was an extraordinary turbulent decade by UK standards. Not the holocaust though, obviously.


This current decade may turn out to be worse in hindsight. We are still living in the grim aftermath of the worst financial crash in history, we are tearing ourselves apart in the most bitter politics schism I've ever known and we have been humiliated by a UN report about the 'staggering' levels of poverty in the country. Maybe on our knees is an exaggeration but at the least we're looking seriously unsteady on our feet.

[Zetetic]

I think it's a bit trivial to describe it as a few bin strikes, it was an extraordinary turbulent decade by UK standards.

Yes - what we're talking about are those standards.

(Well, Britain's. And I can recognise that the experience within Britain wasn't uniform across its geography either.)

Maybe on our knees is an exaggeration but at the least we're looking seriously unsteady on our feet.

I think we can probably find more agreement on this. But the latter is quite a different proposition, open to uncertainty that things might yet be a lot worse.

And why some level of preparedness for that features in my half-arsed attempts to respond, personally, to the state we're in.

[manticore]

Is it really so true? Compared to what? What about the 1970s for instance? Outside of actual wartime that was probably the most traumatic decade in modern British history. Year after year of economic and political turmoil, endless strikes, power cuts, the 3 day week, the winter of discontent, rampant inflation,  a currency collapse and having to go to the imf for an emergency loan, 100s murdered in IRA bombings, a plot to overthrow the prime minister and the constant spectre of total annihilation.

Those that lived through that madness (and were sold the biggest lie of the age - 'joining the common market was just a trading arrangement') are what, in their 60s and more now? More likely to have voted brexit too. You might make the argument that those whose lives and communities were ripped apart by the destruction of thatcherism in the 80s were more likely to have voted brexit too.

The spoilt sods.

Biggy you crazy. I'm old enough to remember that period and to compare it to the mid-century horrors is ludicrous. There were occasional people around who liked to melodramatisize it in that way (like Richard Clutterbuck) and they were nearly all right-wingers and MI5 types who wanted some kind of reactionary response - a coup or what they actually got in 1979 - a Strong Leader to save us all (though she didn't really begin to play that role until a couple of years later). You shouldn't be swallowing this stuff.

'Endless strikes' is the sort of hyperbole they indulged in, and the BBC loved to repeat the phrase 'Winter of Discontent' over and over, acting as the same effectively propaganda organ it does today. The Glasgow Media Group demystified a lot of that media crap at the time. There was more of a spectre of annihilation in the 80s with the arrival of cruise missiles - thus the mass CND marches, Greenham Common etc, and obviously it wasn't as bad as the Cuban Missile Crisis and the mass psychological effect that had. The three day week and power cuts are not well characterised as a 'trauma' either.

I admit this is the viewpoint of a m/c 8-18 year old, but it's also with hindsight, and I was aware of what was going on with the world around.

Also, what Paul Calf said.

[biggytitbo]

I think I must have got the wrong end of the stick, I didn't realise we were talking about the holocaust and WW2. That said I might point out we also had an horrendous time during WW2, and were deeply impoverished by its aftermath. Just because we've never been invaded or attacked or had a fascist government in modern times doesn't mean we've become overly blase or sloppy about the dangers of economic and political tumult or extremism etc. That's an indulgent attempt to crowbar another hot take about brexit in isnt it?

[Paul Calf]

That's an indulgent attempt to crowbar another hot take about brexit in isnt it?

And you've seized it with both hands haven't you?

This thread, as far as I can see, is about the rise of authoritarian nationalism in the West and the wider world. Let's keep it that way.

[Captain Z]

When Farage feels he has to leave your party it may be time to take a good hard look at yourselves, but when Paul Nuttals feels he has to do the same you should probably accept it's time to go to bed.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yes, although there are so many ins and outs in minor parties that it isn't inconceivable either could return.

If UKIP turns openly racist as seems to be happening, but it falls flat on its arse, and the ERG realise their Tory takeover is dead, then two extremes of right wingery are blunted aren't they? So it might work out ok.

[Pingers]

Looks like the fascists/UKIPpers massively outnumbered in London today. Well done everyone, this is how to keep the far right at bay - make everything they do depressingly difficult and soul-destroying.

[Productionforuse]

Sutton Index reckons 68 deaths from IRA attacks in Britain in the '70s.

But, yes, also candles and having to wait a bit for someone to pick the bins up, so a lot like living in France, Germany, or Poland in the '40s.

Northern Ireland itself was, and is, of course another matter (though obviously not comparable to the other named cases).

[Zetetic]

Yes, it is another matter.

[DrGreggles]

Looks like the fascists/UKIPpers massively outnumbered in London today. Well done everyone, this is how to keep the far right at bay - make everything they do depressingly difficult and soul-destroying.

Approx 10000 to approx 2000 apparently.

[rjd2]

Approx 10000 to approx 2000 apparently.

But fascism is on the rise on the UK I have been told by the UK press and the Guardian. LOL.

[Pingers]

According to Hope Not Hate, 5000 attended the Brexit Betrayal protest, which they point out is a worryingly high number for a far right event. Presumably there were some old-style Kippers there, so not all attendees from the very far right, but it's still too many. But not the turnout Yaxley-Lennon would have been hoping for, and if they are very outnumbered on these events and therefore get hemmed in by the police it may quickly get demoralising for them.

[Autopsy Turvey]

Looks like the fascists/UKIPpers massively outnumbered in London today. Well done everyone, this is how to keep the far right at bay - make everything they do depressingly difficult and soul-destroying.

I should think the high prices of train travel, fuel and parking, in London, two weeks before Christmas was always likely to keep most Brexit supporters at bay. Again though, any evidence of fascistic or racistic things being said or done gratefully accepted. Unless these knuckle-dragging moron thugs have cleverly learned to pass themselves off as normal orderly people, like Invasion Of The Body Snatchers.

According to Hope Not Hate, 5000 attended the Brexit Betrayal protest,

Is that organisation a convincing authority to trust on the subject?

but it's still too many.

Absolutely, difference of opinion on this subject should be more rigorously stigmatised. Or ideally suppressed by force, the fascist bastards.

[Benevolent Despot]

Absolutely, difference of opinion on this subject should be more rigorously stigmatised. Or ideally suppressed by force, the fascist bastards.

It's the playbook dude, you'll have a hard time on this forum if you have a sceptical attitude on things like this.

The playbook contents are-
1. Do some creative writing and call people who aren't Nazis and fascists those things, use every fallacy and innuendo you can.
2. Legitimise political violence, but only against Nazis and fascists.
3. Legitimise state and private censorship, but only against Ns and Fs.
4. Prevent the Ns and Fs from meeting even in private.
5. Say any angry response is proof of their violence. Go back to step 1 and repeat.

[Pingers]

I should think the high prices of train travel, fuel and parking, in London, two weeks before Christmas was always likely to keep most Brexit supporters at bay. Again though, any evidence of fascistic or racistic things being said or done gratefully accepted. Unless these knuckle-dragging moron thugs have cleverly learned to pass themselves off as normal orderly people, like Invasion Of The Body Snatchers.

Is that organisation a convincing authority to trust on the subject?

Absolutely, difference of opinion on this subject should be more rigorously stigmatised. Or ideally suppressed by force, the fascist bastards.

In fairness to your point, I will agree that the term 'fascist' is likely a misnomer for Yaxkey-Lennon and I won't be applying it to him again unless anything changes. I will say instead that he is a far-right bigot and hate-monger who deliberately stokes hatred of all Muslims, regardless of whether they are Islamists or not, and has done since the very early days of the EDL. Which is a little different, and only a very little better, but I think more accurate.