Author Topic: Are you a 'good man'?  (Read 1777 times)

Are you a 'good man'?
« on: December 07, 2018, 04:02:32 AM »
Quote
  In the speech, which tapped into the #MeToo moment and went viral overnight, Gadsby cited the male hosts and guests of US late shows who “monologue their hot take on misogyny”, to draw a line in the sand about which men are good and which are bad – a line that invariably benefits them.

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2018/dec/07/hannah-gadsby-takes-aim-at-good-men-who-try-to-commandeer-metoo

She's pretty much right imo. Everybody has an opinion I'm glad I don't need to have one.

I also like her calling Aziz Ansari and Louis CK 'garden variety consent dslyexics'.

Blacklisted soon?

Twed

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 05:56:02 AM »
Yes, I absolutely loved what she wrote on this. Very sharp.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 07:36:31 AM »
Quote
Men will draw a different line for every occasion,” she said. “They have a line for the locker room; a line for when their wives, mothers, daughters and sisters are watching; another line for when they’re drunk and fratting; another line for nondisclosure; a line for friends; and a line for foes

Nice generalisation. Whereas women are scrupulously consistent and never alter their behaviour based on the company they keep.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2018, 07:37:36 AM »
Nice generalisation. Whereas women are scrupulously consistent and never alter their behaviour based on the company they keep.

Is perhaps commented on a little lower down that's a bit more self refferential but notable absent is a "line" for "wealthy and successful".

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2018, 08:10:08 AM »
Throw all men into a big pile based on the actions of a few and flush them down the toilet
Also, have you ever noticed how women have never done anything bad? Makes you think doesn’t it

gilbertharding

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 08:23:07 AM »
To answer the question in the thread title: no, I am not - although I think I pass for one among anyone unable to see inside my brain or what I sometimes do alone in a locked bathroom.

Who among us, male or otherwise can say anything different?

Buelligan

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2018, 08:41:41 AM »
Throw all men into a big pile based on the actions of a few and flush them down the toilet
Also, have you ever noticed how women have never done anything bad? Makes you think doesn’t it

Women have done evil and it's not a competition.  Even so, even in jest, you need to think about this statement.  Consider massacres, murders, wars, consider the KKK, consider evil and mull upon the balance of the sexes therein.  And something will be very apparent to you.

Either it's the natural product of hormones and being a male, there's not a lot we can do about that even if we wanted but it prompts the question, if that is true, why are all humans affected by these hormones not the same?  Or it's a product of culture/nurture.  The permissions we grant, the entitlements we feel, the governance we apply to our own impulses.  If that's the case, we certainly can do something about it and we must.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2018, 08:51:13 AM »
Women have done evil and it's not a competition.  Even so, even in jest, you need to think about this statement.  Consider massacres, murders, wars, consider the KKK, consider evil and mull upon the balance of the sexes therein.  And something will be very apparent to you.

Either it's the natural product of hormones and being a male, there's not a lot we can do about that even if we wanted but it prompts the question, if that is true, why are all humans affected by these hormones not the same?  Or it's a product of culture/nurture.  The permissions we grant, the entitlements we feel, the governance we apply to our own impulses.  If that's the case, we certainly can do something about it and we must.

https://www.facebook.com/EducateInspireChange.org/videos/2405878246153410/

Buelligan

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2018, 08:53:33 AM »
Sorry, I don't go on Facebook.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2018, 09:05:28 AM »
Here’s a link to the full interview.

https://youtu.be/mkxiSzdQ7C8

Ignoring the title of the video, it’s quite an interesting discussion

AllisonSays

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2018, 09:08:19 AM »
Nice generalisation. Whereas women are scrupulously consistent and never alter their behaviour based on the company they keep.

Obviously - I mean, obviously - Gadsby isn't saying men are inherently and endemically hypocritical, and women are shining beacons of moral surety. She's saying that on the specific topic of women and sex, men tend to voice different attitudes in different spaces, which is true, in my experience anyway.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 09:10:11 AM »
My brother Martin, who is severely autistic, used to say he was a "good boy" until he became an adult and we gently encouraged him to say "good man", so now he will look at me and definitively state "Martin is a good man". So I can confirm that my brother is a good man.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 09:26:25 AM »
As a generalisation I'd say she's right. In the context of the entertainment industry- probably more so.

Lemming

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 09:34:49 AM »
Nice generalisation. Whereas women are scrupulously consistent and never alter their behaviour based on the company they keep.

She's talking specifically only about sexism/misogyny there, and how some men who are otherwise alright will erase or readjust their "lines" of what's acceptable sexism-wise if put into the presence of a pack of LEGEND GARYs. Like AllisonSays, it's true in my experience too.

Everyone obviously alters their behaviour based on company, but we should really work not to when it comes to sexism/misogyny or other types of bigotry, our lines for them ought to be inflexible. She makes that point a little later on when she makes the same argument among other lines rather than sex:
Quote
Gadsby ended the speech with a forceful nod towards intersectionality. “Now take everything I have said up unto this point, and replace ‘man’ with ‘white person’ … [and] with ‘straight’ or ‘cis’ or ‘able-bodied’ or ‘neurotypical’ … Every single one of us has an enormous responsibility to be very, very careful about the lines we draw.”

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 09:37:45 AM »
More hilarious jokes from comedian Hannah Gadsby there.

Beagle 2

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2018, 09:42:16 AM »
Nice generalisation. Whereas women are scrupulously consistent and never alter their behaviour based on the company they keep.

Yes, I was just about to say the same thing.

The thing is, the way it is at the moment you're only ever going to get men sticking to safe, bland lines when they make comment on things like #MeToo because any sort of opinion that may slightly deviate from what's considered the right thing to say is immediately leapt upon by a million people. So Jimmy can't give his own perspective in an honest way (IT'S NOT FOR HIM TO SAY), and Jimmy definitely can't say nothing at all (ACKNOWLEDGE YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM), so this is what you get. But it turns out that's not good enough either, because of the imaginary conversations you might or might not be having when you're not saying it.



Cuellar

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 09:46:16 AM »
You know, in these situations, I sometimes think political correctness has gone mad!!!!

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2018, 09:54:01 AM »
"There's a beast in every man and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand HOO HAH HOO HAH" - Sword boy strong: Hard men man men. Do not press us, female, you know not the horrors that lurk within, HUUUWARGH. Tread careful, harlot, oh titted nuisance, lest you awaken a great and terrible thing. BOO-RAARGH. You dare unshackle me!? I'll stay up past my bedtime, far past it, watching daddy's VHS of old eurotrash episodes. Digestives eaten without a plate, the crumbs shall blot out the sky, and nothing shall grow from the ground on which they fall.  My face unwashed, plastered in a twisted war-mask of snot, crumbs and smeared chocolate, the flannel bone dry, dry as your shrivelled cunt, vile harridan, I shall not wash my face with it UGGHHH--ARGGHH-MAAGGHH.

Beagle 2

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2018, 09:55:55 AM »
It doesn't just apply to all this stuff anyway, whoever you are, on any given sensitive issue the only actual place you can discuss things in any sort of natural organic way is in person with very close friends. I've talked about this stuff with my wife and my mates and said things off the top of my head, posed questions I would never in a million years in public, blundered around spewing out my thoughts as human beings do, but in the context of debate that's how you test out ideas. You might say things you don't really think to spark off discussion, and you make jokes about serious subjects to get cheap laughs - you always do when you're amongst friends and the irony is understood. You can't do any of those things when you're on the record. Most of the conversations I've had about it with men have been along the lines of re-evaluating our previous behaviour, it's not "of course lads, really we know that it's gone too far among the loves, phwooar, tits". I find it patronising that keeping up a private and public persona as literally every human now has does to a greater or lesser extent is being reduced to "men's locker room chat". And it's nothing to do with political correctness, because you're talking about one specific perspective there, it's just the hysterical nature of debate within the context of modern communications.

Lemming

  • CHANE WASSANASONG IS YOUR BOYFRIEND
Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2018, 10:06:01 AM »
You can't do any of those things when you're on the record. Most of the conversations I've had about it with men have been along the lines of re-evaluating our previous behaviour, it's not "of course lads, really we know that it's gone too far among the loves, phwooar, tits".

Aren't those exactly the sorts of conversations being encouraged?

We can broach topics in comedic and ironic ways with friends to tackle real issues, but I'm not sure how that'd be translated to the TV talk show format Gadsby is talking about. I've only seen those shows in passing, but having an all-purpose Woke Expert paid to spew out shallow party-line opinions on every given topic every night seems like a bad idea to start with, so maybe there's no saving it.

Buelligan

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2018, 10:42:06 AM »
Here’s a link to the full interview.

https://youtu.be/mkxiSzdQ7C8

Ignoring the title of the video, it’s quite an interesting discussion

Haha, thanks. 

Paul Calf

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2018, 12:41:58 PM »
[tag]Ctrl-w thread[/tag]

up_the_hampipe

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2018, 12:52:23 PM »
Blacklisted soon?

You say that like any of her comments were against the grain. Sure, she'll get a lot of angry men in her twitter feed, but she's become the voice of the current climate. She's very marketable right now. I wouldn't be shocked if she hosted the Oscars in place of Lil Kev.

Blue Jam

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2018, 12:55:30 PM »

Funcrusher

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2018, 01:07:47 PM »
Gadsby ended the speech with a forceful nod towards intersectionality. “Now take everything I have said up unto this point, and replace ‘man’ with ‘white person’ … [and] with ‘straight’ or ‘cis’ or ‘able-bodied’ or ‘neurotypical’ … Every single one of us has an enormous responsibility to be very, very careful about the lines we draw.”

As always intersectionality is a world in which class and money don't exist, only various aspects of identity. Nothing is more important than speech and the micromanaging of it, and there are lines that can objectively be drawn between right and wrong - although for the purposes of some people calling others out they seem to be a permanently moving target.

Pingers

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2018, 01:13:25 PM »
I have a set of political principles which, though not dogmatically set in stone, are quite consistent. These are based in the politics of anarchism and therefore inform a belief in equality for everyone, from each according to their ability, to each according to their need and so on. I find this means I can be consistent in what I think about particular issues and therefore have no need to present different opinions in different settings. Everyone gets the same opinions from me, regardless of who's asking.

I do wonder whether this is different for people whose politics are bound up in intersectionality, with its endless categorisation and sub-categorisation of people, so that they are all seemingly obsessed with their situations relative to others in terms of race, gender identity, sexual identity and so on - it all looks very fluid to me, no wonder peope struggle to know where they stand and articulate a consistent ideology. If we don't even know which identity our interlocutors are wearing this week, and if people believe this, not their material reality, is the most important thing to think about, then no wonder people are all at sea.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2018, 01:17:34 PM »
I just want to say I really hate the phrase "Locker Room talk" I can't even remember being in a "Men's locker room"... I mean the local swimming pool has a lockers in it, I sometimes go there, but it's not really a locker room, there's just lockers there and cubicles where you go to change, but they aren't gendered. And normal people don't usually go to the gym's where there would be gendered locker rooms, and even if they do, it's not like men all go to talk each other about how secretly they DO think women are objects.

It's not really a thing that happens in real life much, it's just one of those hyperreal things tv shows do because it's convenient.

Blue Jam

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2018, 01:24:43 PM »
she's become the voice of the current climate. She's very marketable right now. I wouldn't be shocked if she hosted the Oscars in place of Lil Kev.

Nanette was based on Gadsby's actual lived experience of growing up in a homohobic and misogynistic society, and the violence she experienced in that society, including rape. I don't think it's fair to dismiss that as something "marketable" or fashionable. You could perhaps level that accusation at Bridget Christie, if her earlier work was more about surrealism than feminism as I have been told, but I don't think that's very fair on Gadsby.

Bingo Fury

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2018, 01:35:05 PM »
I'm glad to see this going viral as it's in line with something that struck me a few years ago, and was one of the best and most useful insights I've ever had, which was that growing up thinking of myself as a "good person" hadn't done me, or anyone else, any favours.

If you're convinced you're a "good person", you can fall into the trap of thinking you couldn't do anything truly "bad" without realising it; that doing something "bad" involves consciously stepping out of your normal patterns and behaving how a "bad person" would behave. But I had to accept that I'd done some fucked-up shit that didn't fit in with my self-image at all.

If you know you're a cunt and accept you're a cunt, you're going to police your own moral behaviour far more stringently. Ironically, I think I'm consequently a better person now, which may have defeated the purpose.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2018, 01:40:02 PM »
I try to be as good as I can but I do sometimes glance at lady's bums in tight bottoms. I'm getting better at resisting that urge though.