Author Topic: Are you a 'good man'?  (Read 1793 times)

up_the_hampipe

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2018, 01:41:22 PM »
Nanette was based on Gadsby's actual lived experience of growing up in a homohobic and misogynistic society, and the violence she experienced in that society, including rape. I don't think it's fair to dismiss that as something "marketable" or fashionable. You could perhaps level that accusation at Bridget Christie, if her earlier work was more about surrealism than feminism as I have been told, but I don't think that's very fair on Gadsby.

That wasn't a dismissive comment about her, more about the nature of showbusiness capitalising on 'trends', regardless of how serious they may be. In terms of what Hollywood has been trying to present itself as recently, she's exactly the type of person they would want on a platform, so saying she could be blacklisted for those comments doesn't seem accurate.

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2018, 01:51:46 PM »
Yes, I was just about to say the same thing.

The thing is, the way it is at the moment you're only ever going to get men sticking to safe, bland lines when they make comment on things like #MeToo because any sort of opinion that may slightly deviate from what's considered the right thing to say is immediately leapt upon by a million people. So Jimmy can't give his own perspective in an honest way (IT'S NOT FOR HIM TO SAY), and Jimmy definitely can't say nothing at all (ACKNOWLEDGE YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM), so this is what you get. But it turns out that's not good enough either, because of the imaginary conversations you might or might not be having when you're not saying it.

This makes a good point. The understandable desire for women to drive the discussion of this topic has created a dynamic where dissenting voices are discounted with uncomfortable frequency on account of identity rather than on the quality of their argument, which is surely what no sane party would want.

This atmosphere subdues debate and moves men towards platitudes for fear of being misrepresented, or outcasted, or labelled mansplainers. This is the dynamic where some men say a different version of 'what they really think' among their peers. In reality though this is nothing new, this has always happened.

This is a moral hazard of political correctness, which I think it a good thing in civil society on balance, but also can be used to stifle discussion.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2018, 01:56:50 PM »
Obviously - I mean, obviously - Gadsby isn't saying men are inherently and endemically hypocritical, and women are shining beacons of moral surety. She's saying that on the specific topic of women and sex, men tend to voice different attitudes in different spaces, which is true, in my experience anyway.

Of course it is commonplace, in fact I've been saying the same for years. This is not news to many people and her point isn't expressed very well - it is expressed less well than you have put it - so that it comes across as a blanket generalisation and something that is isolated to men, which I also don't think is the case.


Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2018, 02:07:06 PM »
something for the most boring people on this site to get heat up about. hard pass on this topic

Small Man Big Horse

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2018, 02:18:28 PM »
I agree with pretty much everything she says there apart from the bit about people thinking they're fundamentally good. A lot of people I know are aware of their flaws and though they try to be good, they know they don't always manage such a thing, even if it just comes down to treating people shittily when you're having a bad day, and I just don't think it's quite as black and white as she makes out.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2018, 02:24:02 PM »
That bit reminded me of the gap between just how few people would ever admit to being sexist/racist or acting in a sexist/racist way or harbouring/expressing those opinions versus the sheer number that do without realising it.

A few times this year, usually on stuff like YouTube and Facebook I have felt the need to make the point, 'if you aren't a racist then what do you actually think a racist is?' People absolutely hate the notion attributed with being described as sexist or racist which shows that political correctness does have a progressive effect.

That I agreed with. When it comes to moral values such as that I think most people do think they possess a decency and moral centre, but what has gone into constituting that centre is the key to whether they are a bigot or not.

up_the_hampipe

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2018, 02:28:08 PM »
I agree with pretty much everything she says there apart from the bit about people thinking they're fundamentally good. A lot of people I know are aware of their flaws and though they try to be good, they know they don't always manage such a thing, even if it just comes down to treating people shittily when you're having a bad day, and I just don't think it's quite as black and white as she makes out.

They might think they're fundamentally good outside of that, though. Like the idea that they're aware of their flaws and try to change means they're not really one of the bad ones, they just do bad things sometimes. They tell people that they're bad, because it might make them look good to acknowledge what they've done or said.

chveik

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2018, 02:29:09 PM »
who knows really? there isn't any transcendent being that could tell us if we're good or bad. I just stay indoors, you can't do much wrong when you stay in bed all your life.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2018, 02:34:18 PM »
who knows really? there isn't any transcendent being that could tell us if we're good or bad. I just stay indoors, you can't do much wrong when you stay in bed all your life.

A malnourished dependent shivers in an unfurnished room.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2018, 02:37:41 PM »
who knows really? there isn't any transcendent being that could tell us if we're good or bad. I just stay indoors, you can't do much wrong when you stay in bed all your life.

respect for doing that Proust shit my man

kittens

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2018, 02:39:23 PM »
no, i am not a good man.   

kittens

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2018, 02:40:09 PM »
I am a great man!!;

kittens

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2018, 02:40:58 PM »
just a little joke, that's all.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2018, 02:49:04 PM »
Embittered old sapphist with a massive chip on her shoulder.

kittens

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2018, 02:52:38 PM »
Embittered old sapphist with a massive chip on her shoulder.

jesus christ, it was just a little joke, that's all!

Lemming

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2018, 02:56:03 PM »
Embittered old sapphist with a massive chip on her shoulder.

New H.S. Art character?

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2018, 03:09:34 PM »
What about those of us who are such hermits we're never even going to end up in a position where we get tested whether or not we're consent dyslexics?

What of us eh? I think I'd be alright, and not bad like Aziz Ansari, but there's no way of knowing.

Brundle-Fly

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2018, 03:34:59 PM »
All you can do is try.

Blue Jam

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2018, 04:40:19 PM »
Embittered old sapphist with a massive chip on her shoulder.

What a fascinating post history...

Twed

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2018, 04:46:01 PM »
That wasn't a dismissive comment about her, more about the nature of showbusiness capitalising on 'trends', regardless of how serious they may be.
And I think they are extremely deserving of the same criticism aimed at good men. "Good corporations" generating positive PR because they realised that "strong women" is good marketing for them is absolutely shitty. There has been a lot of pushback against corporate feminism lately (even thought Michele Obama is guilty of this it was great to hear her using the word "shit" to describe Sheryl Sandberg's horsecrap) and I am excited to hear mainstream voices give it a shot. Class equality needs a popular movement right now too, and when it happens it will benefit feminism.

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2018, 04:49:44 PM »
I am a good man but a

BAD BOY

because that's what women want,according to everythin men's and womens mags tell me and the Daily Mail online and the reality telly such as Just Tattoo of Us or Love idland.

Its fuckin hard work. I never know whether to help someone with their shopping or steal it and bone their best frend

Large Noise

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2018, 05:17:48 PM »
It's almost as if the monologues delivered by late night talk show hosts are, by definition, utterly meaningless fucking drivel produced by teams of faceless writers for the sole purpose of getting the audience on-side, and we shouldn't take any political or cultural cues from them.

...Until Now

WELCOME TO LATE NIGHT WITH HANNAH GADSBY. AND OH WHAT A SHOW WE'VE GOT FOR YOU TONIGHT FOLKS

Mister Six

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2018, 05:30:36 PM »
Yes, I was just about to say the same thing.

The thing is, the way it is at the moment you're only ever going to get men sticking to safe, bland lines when they make comment on things like #MeToo because any sort of opinion that may slightly deviate from what's considered the right thing to say is immediately leapt upon by a million people. So Jimmy can't give his own perspective in an honest way (IT'S NOT FOR HIM TO SAY), and Jimmy definitely can't say nothing at all (ACKNOWLEDGE YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM), so this is what you get. But it turns out that's not good enough either, because of the imaginary conversations you might or might not be having when you're not saying it.

Yeah, the outrage generation machines used to pump out endless Jezebel Facebook updates are fucking wearying. The problem with identity politics is that everyone has their own personal idea of what their identity group means to them, and automatically becomes a de facto expert on it  internally that leads of factionalism, cliquery and gatekeeping; externally it leads to every two cents being held up as the one true opinion to be held accountable to, until the next one comes along.

And because of call-out culture and competitive wokeness, everyone is eager to jump down the throat of anyone who transgresses - especially if they're people who "ought to know better" (particular venom is reserved for white women like Ellen, Tina Fey etc), because then you get more imaginary woke points by showing how superior your politics are. Actual Nazis and rapists are by-the-by, but if a white gay woman says something a bit dodgy (or even something that can be stretched and distorted to seem dodgy) then HOO BOY WATCH OUT.

So yeah, it's hard to blame middle-of-the-road late night comedians for doing what they do. It really is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Pingers

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2018, 05:40:22 PM »
^ there is a really good chapter in Darren McGarvey's Poverty Safari about this, where he points out that he gets shit from people online about his so-called privilege, because he's white and male, despite him also being from a really deprived working class area of Glasgow, being brought up by an abusive alcoholic and consequently having mental health needs. So privileged.

Blue Jam

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2018, 06:30:34 PM »
^ there is a really good chapter in Darren McGarvey's Poverty Safari about this, where he points out that he gets shit from people online about his so-called privilege, because he's white and male, despite him also being from a really deprived working class area of Glasgow, being brought up by an abusive alcoholic and consequently having mental health needs. So privileged.

Just purchased, thanks for that.

Years back I used to post on another forum and once returned after a long absence. I had mentioned that I was now looking for work, just as word got around that I had come into some money. I got bombarded with a load of accusations about being a "poor little rich girl", and lectures from smug little class warriors about how inheritance was a disgusting concept and how all dead people's property should automatically go back to the state. Eventually one person posted "You'd still be living at home with your parents if you hadn't inherited money" and I caved in and explained how I had inherited money... A lot of those people had genuinely never realised that in order to inherit money young you generally have to have your parents die on you early in life, and that sure as hell isn't a privilege. As for the unemployment, the assumption was that I was "idle rich" and had quit my job to live on my millions, not that I had given it up to care for a terminally ill parent before inheriting half of a small house in a not-too-desirable part of rural North Wales. These days I wonder if the woman responsible for most of this shit ever did admit that her bohemian freegan thrift shop-and-houseboat lifestyle was funded by her newspaper editor daddy, and how many of these class warriors donated their childhood homes (mostly in London) to the state when their parents eventually passed...

I also used to get a load of this shit because of my "posh" accent, even though it's a complete accident of birth and my private secondary education, which was funded by the Assisted Places Scheme (ie, I was academically able but from a poor family in an area with no grammar schools). I used to get embarrassed about my schooling and feel the need to apologise by explaining the Assisted Places thing, but that would just lead to "...so you got a private education on the taxpayer? And that's fair is it?" Now I'm older and a research scientist who applies for grants I think "fuck it, these things are there for the taking, principles don't improve your life chances or pay the rent". Cigs.

Incidentally I do still consider myself pretty privileged, but what the hell. We've all got contradictions in our values and backgrounds and lifestyles, getting competitive about this is a big bag of bollocks.

thenoise

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2018, 06:33:01 PM »
Women have done evil and it's not a competition.  Even so, even in jest, you need to think about this statement.  Consider massacres, murders, wars, consider the KKK, consider evil and mull upon the balance of the sexes therein.  And something will be very apparent to you.

I think that the same oppression that has prevented women from achieving great things in the past has also prevented them from committing terrible things on the level that men have.

Twed

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2018, 06:41:37 PM »
^ there is a really good chapter in Darren McGarvey's Poverty Safari about this, where he points out that he gets shit from people online about his so-called privilege, because he's white and male, despite him also being from a really deprived working class area of Glasgow, being brought up by an abusive alcoholic and consequently having mental health needs. So privileged.
I think society with its short attention span is going to move on from the kind of wokeness that would enable Lena Dunham to tell a Glasgegian man living under the poverty line to check his privilege after calling his wife "hen". Thank fuck.

Mister Six

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2018, 09:06:28 PM »
I think society with its short attention span is going to move on from the kind of wokeness that would enable Lena Dunham to tell a Glasgegian man living under the poverty line to check his privilege after calling his wife "hen". Thank fuck.

Good news! The woke backlash against Dunham is in full swing - but only because she backed up her alleged rapist pal and said some dumb racist stuff, not because she's absurdly privileged.

^ there is a really good chapter in Darren McGarvey's Poverty Safari about this, where he points out that he gets shit from people online about his so-called privilege, because he's white and male, despite him also being from a really deprived working class area of Glasgow, being brought up by an abusive alcoholic and consequently having mental health needs. So privileged.

The loudest online intersectionalists (basically those that are doing it as an affectation or to bolster their own self-esteem, rather than the people who actually study and understand the principle) are curiously quiet about class and wealth privilege - almost as if a bunch of college-educated twentysomethings who use their identities alertnately as battle-axes and crucifixes don't actually want to check their own privilege.

sprocket

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Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2018, 12:32:29 AM »
[tag]And thorough[/tag]

Re: Are you a 'good man'?
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2018, 02:54:42 AM »
It's almost as if the monologues delivered by late night talk show hosts are, by definition, utterly meaningless fucking drivel produced by teams of faceless writers for the sole purpose of getting the audience on-side, and we shouldn't take any political or cultural cues from them.

...Until Now

WELCOME TO LATE NIGHT WITH HANNAH GADSBY. AND OH WHAT A SHOW WE'VE GOT FOR YOU TONIGHT FOLKS

I was about to make a late night post, but thank you for saving time, essentially I concur. I would love to see John Oliver flounder in a real situation outside of a pandering well paid boring situation.