Avengers: Endgame

[colacentral]

Easily the most gratuitous director cameo ever filmed in this.

[samadriel]

Easily the most gratuitous director cameo ever filmed in this.

Can't be too bad, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[phantom_power]

Crying date man

[Swoz_MK]

"He called me a DUCKHID", was nice to see him again.

[colacentral]

Nothing else on so saw it this morning.

Non spoilery reaction is generally very positive, I mean like the last one having so many characters does make it a bit fractured but I think it manages to pull of both that and pretty wild shifts in tone very well. It does definitely exploit actually having a cast with good acting chops, probably moreso than any other Marvel.

If I was being very critical I might say perhaps it should have kept with the serious tone more consistently?

Non-Spoiler thoughts:

I agree - the humour was strong for the most part but undercut the tension at times too. For two people who have come from sitcom backgrounds, the Russos have a bad habit of stretching a comedy scene out to beyond breaking point. I hated how long Drax's nut eating scene went on for in Infinity War, and there were two similar scenes in this where I was having a physical reaction against the film, as I tried to mentally will a cut into existence. It's particularly bizarre when the serious / humorous balance was mastered by them in their two Captain America films prior to these two Avengers films.

Overall I think this will benefit from rewatches, and I am going again to see it in IMAX and to get a chance to properly absorb it all. I spent too much of the first viewing in a state of tension, hoping they wouldn't fuck it up. I was so on edge about the balance of comedy that I worried about a certain character's triumphant final line being undercut with a joke; I don't want to spoil it but when there's a big dramatic pause I thought for sure they were going to say "... I couldn't think of anything cool" or some daft bollocks like that. What a relief.

I think the central conceit is wonky and I didn't like the way they disregarded their own rules simply to serve fan service. I get that they wanted this to be the mother of all fan service films, and I can suspend my disbelief to a certain point, but when you establish a sci-fi concept and your entire plot hinges on it, you can't then just have it work differently at the end to suit your needs. What I find egregious about it in particular is that there are a million other ways they could have gone with it and achieved largely the same effect, in a more subtle way but which would stay true to the rules they'd established.

My other big gripe is with the green screen performances near the end. I really think that the secrecy around the plot and withholding scripts has shot them in the foot here as there are several moments in the final 30 minutes of the film where it feels like most of the actors just got told to stand in front of a green screen and look sad. It literally looked like they were evil clones of the characters at points, so wooden and oddly sinister their expressions were. Skrull invasion? I honestly think that it's worth leaking spoilers if we don't have to have the Star Wars prequels effect of actors having no clue what they're meant to be reacting to.

I do think for the most part it's a solid comic book film though - I was overly tired when I saw it so I came out with mostly nitpicks. I think I'll like it much more on the second viewing.

Going forward I hope they go much smaller scale. I know they have cosmic stuff in the pipeline but I don't want huge CGI battles and cataclysmic events. Captain Marvel worries me for that reason, and she also introduces the Superman problem of being a rather bland overly powerful character who undermines the likes of Ant-Man etc.

I was thinking about how Ant-Man's films haven't quite fulfilled their potential in terms of action set pieces, particularly when you look at how strong the trailers for Ant-Man & the Wasp were versus what we actually got. I think a Mission: Impossible style fun spy thriller team-up with Ant-Man and the other smaller scale heroes would be what I'd want to see next, with a Brad Bird style director who would capitalise on the action and visual possibilities of those characters. The Russos managed it in spots across their four films but I don't think any MCU film has really reached the pinnacle of what it's capable of yet.

I also hope that Netflix Daredevil just gets retconned out as they really shit the bed on that for the most part, and he's another interesting grounded character that could be sorely needed in a series which is going increasingly jokey and cosmic. A Daredevil film which has the feel of Winter Soldier would be terrific to see.

[Delete Delete Delete]

I'm glad they found a good way to make sure that the stakes mattered all the way through and they didn't just hit the reset switch.

[greenman]

Non-Spoiler thoughts:

I agree - the humour was strong for the most part but undercut the tension at times too. For two people who have come from sitcom backgrounds, the Russos have a bad habit of stretching a comedy scene out to beyond breaking point. I hated how long Drax's nut eating scene went on for in Infinity War, and there were two similar scenes in this where I was having a physical reaction against the film, as I tried to mentally will a cut into existence. It's particularly bizarre when the serious / humorous balance was mastered by them in their two Captain America films prior to these two Avengers films.

Overall I think this will benefit from rewatches, and I am going again to see it in IMAX and to get a chance to properly absorb it all. I spent too much of the first viewing in a state of tension, hoping they wouldn't fuck it up. I was so on edge about the balance of comedy that I worried about a certain character's triumphant final line being undercut with a joke; I don't want to spoil it but when there's a big dramatic pause I thought for sure they were going to say "... I couldn't think of anything cool" or some daft bollocks like that. What a relief.

I think the central conceit is wonky and I didn't like the way they disregarded their own rules simply to serve fan service. I get that they wanted this to be the mother of all fan service films, and I can suspend my disbelief to a certain point, but when you establish a sci-fi concept and your entire plot hinges on it, you can't then just have it work differently at the end to suit your needs. What I find egregious about it in particular is that there are a million other ways they could have gone with it and achieved largely the same effect, in a more subtle way but which would stay true to the rules they'd established.

My other big gripe is with the green screen performances near the end. I really think that the secrecy around the plot and withholding scripts has shot them in the foot here as there are several moments in the final 30 minutes of the film where it feels like most of the actors just got told to stand in front of a green screen and look sad. It literally looked like they were evil clones of the characters at points, so wooden and oddly sinister their expressions were. Skrull invasion? I honestly think that it's worth leaking spoilers if we don't have , to have the Star Wars prequels effect of actors having no clue what they're meant to be reacting to.

I do think for the most part it's a solid comic book film though - I was overly tired when I saw it so I came out with mostly nitpicks. I think I'll like it much more on the second viewing.

Going forward I hope they go much smaller scale. I know they have cosmic stuff in the pipeline but I don't want huge CGI battles and cataclysmic events. Captain Marvel worries me for that reason, and she also introduces the Superman problem of being a rather bland overly powerful character who undermines the likes of Ant-Man etc.

I was thinking about how Ant-Man's films haven't quite fulfilled their potential in terms of action set pieces, particularly when you look at how strong the trailers for Ant-Man & the Wasp were versus what we actually got. I think a Mission: Impossible style fun spy thriller team-up with Ant-Man and the other smaller scale heroes would be what I'd want to see next, with a Brad Bird style director who would capitalise on the action and visual possibilities of those characters. The Russos managed it in spots across their four films but I don't think any MCU film has really reached the pinnacle of what it's capable of yet.

I also hope that Netflix Daredevil just gets retconned out as they really shit the bed on that for the most part, and he's another interesting grounded character that could be sorely needed in a series which is going increasingly jokey and cosmic. A Daredevil film which has the feel of Winter Soldier would be terrific to see.

For the most part I think they got the comedy right as in Infinity War but maybe the odd scene felt it undercut things a little? I actually think a lot of the best comedy in the MCU has tended to be lengthier scenes of embarrassment, Batista, Helmsworth and Pratt are all very good at pulling them off IMHO without undercutting themselves too much, it feels more like the inherent ridiculousness of the characters.

As far as what happens next the signs do seem to point to a "for your eyes only" style scaling back to me. I mean you have what looks like a relatively small scale Spiderman film latter this summer then the Black Widow film next year that's likely a flashback to her early spy days. My guess would be that any over arching Avengers story it might shift onto the Doc Strange and/or Black Panther sequels as both those characters seem like potential leaders. Maybe actually have a spilt between a more "earthly" plot there and a separate "cosmic" one with the likes of the Guardians and Captain Marvel?

Another unknown I spose is how significant the new Disney net series might be, thus far Marvel have tended keep them separate from the MCU but given the bigger names involved and pushing their own service perhaps that might be less true in the future?

[colacentral]

I guess we might as well do spoilers now as you'd be a fool to be in this thread if you're bothered by it.

It seems like the Disney streaming series' are going to take place in the branching timelines - Loki making off with the Tesseract likely kicking it off as a signifier of where we are.

I did wonder if the Black Widow prequel might indeed be set up for more of a spy thriller / adventure crossover in the next phase, as even the most standalone films previously have had some thread that comes into play later (for example, no one thought Spider-Man: Homecoming would be essential viewing before Infinity War, but it's possibly the most essential from a character standpoint). I'd imagine that like Captain America 1 there'll be some thread left dangling that will come into play in the present, like the Hydra revelation. I think an Ant-Man, Spider-Man, and Hawkeye team up would be a good fit for that kind of story.

I was joking about the revived characters being skrulls in my last post but I've been thinking about it a bit and I actually do think, considering how they've dealt with the snap, it's a good possibility that it's the catalyst for a Secret Invasion event - I can see Skrulls targeting only figures who have been brought back from the dead, on the assumption that any weird behaviour would be put down to being dead for five years. It would mean not having to retcon characters already established as they only need to start building the story from this point, chronologically.

I'm much more interested in seeing the next Spider-Man knowing that they've left a five year gap between his growth and anyone who didn't disappear. That opens the door to some interesting possibilities; likewise with Black Panther, where Wakanda presumably has a different power structure to what it did five years earlier. I hope they don't just shrug all that potential off.

[greenman]

Seems a little early to go spoilery to me without white next although I spose theres very little activity in this thread which tends to suggest people are avoiding it.

[colacentral]

Fair dos, changed it.

[greenman]

I won't do any quoting as the white text becomes more visable on a grey background but...

The Black Widow film to me actually seems like it has a good deal of potential compared to most of the recent "woke" superhero releases, showing for example her conversion by Hawkeye actually has a good deal of dramatic potential and obviously actors capable of delivering it. You could be right that it might end up introducing plot elements that feed into a continuing series of spy action kind of films akin to Winter Solider. Although personally my money is on a new Avengers team coming together pretty soon unless Marvel have pretty big balls.

Going back to end game itself I must admit I found it probably the most emotionally effecting blockbuster since Return of the King, helps of course that its working with 10 years of films although really I would argue its actually more the Russo's films and to some degree Ultron that provide most of the meat of it were I think Roger, Stark and Widow have always been the three lead characters IMHO. it does I think help that they've really played up characters guilt and resentment as having some substance to them rather than the milder versions we generally get in superhero franchises, actually allowing Downey Jnr and Johansson to cut loose rather more in terms of more serious performance

[Custard]

Absolutely loved that to bits. Haven't been so gripped by a film in years

The Russo brothers are incredible

[Glebe]

I thought it was very good overall, although it felt a little choppy at times and I really wish Thanos' story had of been explored in more depth, carrying on from Infinity War... and, actually, while it had it's fair share of surprizes, I kinda felt it could have done with another out-of-leftfield curveball or something. I dunno, maybe I'm just being too picky.

But yeah, overall, it was a nice finale, and it very commendably focuses on the characters' emotional arcs and wraps up the whole MCU (so far) in a pretty classy fashion. It was nice to see so many characters return, too. I enjoyed the Back to the Future Part II-style revisits to the previous films, and there's a lot of funny stuff - Fat Thor (and Stark referring to him as "Lebowski" - which carries on nicely from the first Iron Man, which had a few The Big Lebowski nods because of Jeff Bridges role in that film), the kids not being arsed getting a selfie with Ant-Man, Professor Hulk having to pretend to be old-school Hulk, Time-Travel Cap reacting to Original-Cap saying "I could do this all day."...).

Actually, New Rockstars correctly predicted the appearance of Professor Hulk... and were also spot on in supposing that the trailers removed certain characters out of some shots.

Oh yeah, one thing that rang a false note with me was the bit where all the other female heroes rally to Captain Marvel... it felt a bit like tokenism, like "look, it's the super-heroines!".

It was very good on the whole, though. So that's my two cents.

Easily the most gratuitous director cameo ever filmed in this.

Yeah, although, seeing as that Russo Brother (whichever one he is) had appeared in other MCU movies, I imagine it was a little 'fan service' thing, like 'It's the Russo Brother again, possibly playing the same, mysterious character!" Nah, you're right, it was too gratuitous...

Oh yeah, one more thing... I was wondering who this was too...

The kid at the end of Avengers: Endgame is one of Marvel's mightiest cameos.

[colacentral]

My favourite moment was Ant-Man watching the birds in the tree. A great way to show that the reversal worked. Weirdly I found that, the shock of the missile hitting the tree and the subsequent explosion of the base, and Rocket gasping for air to be the most emotionally affecting moment of the film. It was a beautifully executed sequence and Bradley Cooper really sells the performance of Rocket in pain; Rudd and Cheadle are terrific too.

On that note, Hawkeye and Black Widow were great too; probably the best they've ever been. This is the first time I've given a shit about Hawkeye at all.

The performances across the board were brilliant.

[Glebe]

Yeah, they're all on top form and those emotional beats were well done. Just to add, the character CGI is just phenomenal... you just forget Thanos and Professor Hulk are computer-generated characters.

[Custard]

It also helped I was in a fun audience. I don't usually like people shouting at the screen at the pictures, but people were so invested that you couldn't help but go along with it and be charmed by how much people really cared

Big butch bloke next to me was crying at one point

So many great moments. Cap finally shouting "Avengers.....ASSEMBLE!!!" was hairs on back of neck stuff

Will add more later, once more people have seen it. Thinking of going to see it again myself. A great film

[Dr Rock]

Sadly 7/10 for me (Infinity War got 10/10)... one complaint - I'll list others as they come to me... virtually no Hulk in Infinity War - then in Endgame we get Professor Hulk. First, that's not Hulk at all, as Hulk's personality is seeming gone. And full Hulk rage-power was never unleashed on Thanos, so he (Real Hulk) never got his rematch. The ideal Hulk for me is the one able to speak like a toddler from Ragnarok. And we've had just one movie of him.

But lots of great moments, Cap with Mjolnir, Valkyrie on Pegasus, all the heroes coming back for the showdown, Scarlet Witch's moment of revenge.

[The Culture Bunker]

Just watched it, thought it was fantastic - though the time travel stuff seems like major plot-hole-land. When Nebula shot her previous self, shouldn't she have vanished or something? Perhaps it's all 'different reality' malarkey, same with Thanos dying before he'd even put all the stones together. 

Stark's death even managed to pierce by bruised, cold heart as much as Cap's happy ending. I had kind of assumed the super-solider serum would give him decreased ageing, mind you.

[QDRPHNC]

Saw it yesterday, really enjoyed it, and I don't tend to go for these things at all. I've only see GotG 1 and 2, and Infinity War out of the whole series, but yeah, even without the deeper investment in the the rest of the movies, there were some genuine tingly moments (like the bit mentioned by Shameless Custard above).

The bit where they assembled all the women was a bit



though, eh? And of course they couldn't actually let the women kill Thanos, but it was nice they let them have a go.

[The Culture Bunker]

I must be going senile or something, as I don't even remember (or noticed) the bit with Captain Marvel and all the other women.

[gmoney]

I noticed it! I thought it was great.

[Dr Rock]

Spoilers

So when Cap went back to live the life he lost, did he have to keep schtum about everything he knew was going to happen? Could he save Howard Stark, or would that mean the Avengers might not form and beat Thanos? But what about 9-11? Did he keep quiet about that? Is that a moral choice? Or did he intervene and cause splits in the time stream? Couldn't he even have got a mysterious message to Thor to tell him to go for the head, possibly never having a snap in the first place to undo? But then he wouldn't get a time-machine...

Also Prof Hulk's Snap should've been to bring back to life everyone Thanos has ever killed, that would save most of the Asgardians, Vison and all the planets he's ever decimated.

I liked that part of Strange's plan seemed to be a message to The Ancient One about sometimes you have to give up the stone.

[The Culture Bunker]

My take on that was: none of that was a result of the finger snap, more old-fashioned manual slaughter, so doesn't count when it came to the 'reverse snap'.

As for Cap going back in time, I think the film seemed to show that changing the past has no impact on the present, beyond returning the stones. Splitting realities or something.

[colacentral]

Regarding the snap rules: I don't think it can be used to bring back people who have "really" died; only those that were killed by using the magic of the stones ie the dusting.

The time travel rules don't make sense to me either. It would mostly make sense if it was purely a case of alternate timelines, as seems to be implied for the majority of the film, on the assumption that the quantum tech conceit always allows them to return to the timeline they came from and vice versa. I can suspend my disbelief for that. But then the Ancient One scene implies that time splits are only created by the removal of the stones. That being the case, then they made a pretty big howler in allowing Loki to escape with the Tesseract. That's acceptable in an alternate timeline, but not if we're assuming it's still theirs.

I suppose you can wave the Cap ending away as a Terminator style time loop but it seems like an awkward mesh of two different time travel types to facilitate the fan service of seeing him as an old man. I would have preferred them to go a different route - one potential being that he simply disappears leaving his shield and a message behind. Another might be that he reappears in the time machine when he's supposed to, but 80 years older, suggesting he lived in the alternate timeline but held on to the Quantum Tech until Peggy died, and now he's returning just to let them know what he did. Either of those achieves a similar effect without throwing up questions about the logic of it.

I have a theory about Gamora: as she's still dead and in the soul stone in our main timeline, but the past Gamora is now living in our timeline too, I feel like they're going to go the direction of there only being one soul per dimension, similar to how the two Nebulas essentially shared a wi-fi cloud, but on a spiritual level. I think that means that past Gamora and original Gamora will basically merge at some point, having the memories of both, or something. I think that's a fairly plausible way of bringing her back without feeling like a cheat.

[Dr Rock]

My take on that was: none of that was a result of the finger snap, more old-fashioned manual slaughter, so doesn't count when it came to the 'reverse snap'.

So don't wish for a reverse snap - the snaps proved they needn't be just about killing half the population, or bringing back half the population (with Iron Man's snap, or Thanos's second planned snap).

[The Culture Bunker]

So don't wish for a reverse snap - the snaps proved they needn't be just about killing half the population, or bringing back half the population (with Iron Man's snap, or Thanos's second planned snap).

Well, Stark reinforces the idea of just bringing all those people back from the snap, as he doesn't want to lose the life he had with Pepper and their kid. It's believable that Banner didn't give much thought to all the people on the worlds Thanos had been to before, just focusing on that one moment to reverse.

Shame Vision didn't come back, of course - I'm guessing the stones will come into play again at some point.

[phantom_power]

The Russos are pretty clever blokes and have shown themselves to have a great ability to juggle these massive casts and ideas so I think either a) there is a unified theory that explains all this that will come out in time or (most likely) b) they thought "fuck it" and got on with making an enjoyable, fan pleasing (in the right way) film without worrying about any of the plot holes

[mothman]

Oh yeah, one more thing... I was wondering who this was too...

The kid at the end of Avengers: Endgame is one of Marvel's mightiest cameos.

Ah, I was wondering about that too. What a nice touch.

I definitely enjoyed it, but I think I'm still processing it. I'm unlikely to go see it in the cinema again to help with that, though. It was all very emotional. I am gutted Tony died, I'd like to have seen him retire to live with his family; however, I also know he'd never be able to relax, never be able to step back. My money was on Cap, but I guess it's good to see him have the happy ending he wanted and deserved but literally could never have.

Now, as for all the time travel shenanigans, it does feel like they've maybe played a bit too fast and loose; sure they've returned the stones from whence they came in theory before they were missed, but what about all the disruptions to the timelines?

• In 2012, the changes are most egregious: Loki makes off with the Tesseract, the Hydra contingent in SHIELD all think Cap is one of them, etc., etc.
• Asgard in 2013 escapes mostly unscathed from changes, I think.
• Presumably Cap returns the Soul Stone to Vormir (oh, to be a fly on the wall for his meeting with Red Skull), ready for it to be later retrieved by Thanos & Gamora. BUT...
• Now, Morag in 2014. Dear me. Putting aside assumptions that Star Lord just wakes up from being bonked on the head and goes on to collect the stone, after that all the events of GotG I & II must surely never have happened, because Thanos, Nebula & Gamora remove themselves from that timeline; now while all the Guardians are protected by quantum trickery of some kind, does that mean that Yondu, Ronan, Ego are alive again?

Or, did the timelines continue as they were and the fact that Thanos & co exited their timeline have no effect? I think that is what we're meant to assume going forward. Cap remaining in the past is problematic, and I think they've let themselves down a bit by having him choosing to return only when he's old (and presumably after Peggy died), all so they could have him appear there in person rather than via the portal.

I liked the way they had all the female heroines assemble there at that one point, it felt natural if contrived. And will annoy a certain segment of the fanbase no end, always a bonus. I also liked Falcon becoming the new Captain America rather than Bucky as was expected. But the thing is, Cap had superhuman strength, but Sam isn't a Supersoldier; the new Cap will basically be Hawkeye with a shield.

[The Culture Bunker]

What I don't get, after some thought, is how the big talk from the Ancient One about returning the stones to keep everything OK, but then Thanos destroyed the stones and nothing happened - so, going on the basis he was telling the truth, am I right to be confused?

[mothman]

What I don't get, after some thought, is how the big talk from the Ancient One about returning the stones to keep everything OK, but then Thanos destroyed the stones and nothing happened - so, going on the basis he was telling the truth, am I right to be confused?

Because while the eventual destruction of the stones was a fixed point of sorts, the Avengers were proposing to remove them from where they had already had a (stabilising) effect in the past. After the stones were destroyed, I guess the timeline is on its own. No, I'm not sure it makes sense to me either, but that's how I'm rationalising it.