Joker (2019 Joker film)

[Spiteface]

And your point is what, exactly?

I saw Joker, I hated it while everyone was falling over each other to praise it. You've never had an opinion that placed you in a minority before?

Yeah I like Power Rangers, I also recognise it's been mostly shit for the last 10 years. Even most die-hard fans will admit that.

[rasta-spouse]

I reckon once you've got the make-up on being A Joker isn't that difficult.

Best bit of the film for me was when his sign gets stolen and he runs down the street, and the WHOLE street is The Eighties. Very impressed with that. Rest of the film not so much. Phoenix already did this guy with Lynne Ramsay, and at the end his Joker didn't have the same presence as Jack's or Heath's. And is it Batman lore that The Joker kills his pa? Lame that this clown isn't even the real Joker.

Another thing I thought was that Thomas Wayne has a low bar for punching people who are (a) his former employee's kids and (b) clearly mentally ill in the face. Almost like the writers of this are a bit rubs.

[Dr Rock]

And is it Batman lore that The Joker kills his pa?

No. It was a hood called Joe Chill.

[Dr Rock]

I reckon once you've got the make-up on being A Joker isn't that difficult.

Tell that to Jared Leto.

[Blumf]

I'm convinced that Phoneix's Joker grows up to be Cesar Romero's Joker. He's not got the cunning and tactics of Ledger's, he's not as brutal as Nicholson's, and he's not a twat.



Other items in favour of this assessment; the make-up is kinda similar, and we know this version of Bruce Wayne likes sliding down polls.

[Phoenix Lazarus]

we know this version of Bruce Wayne likes sliding down polls.

Like Jeremy Corbyn.

[thecuriousorange]

The end with him becoming Lord of the Juggalos was silly.

[H-O-W-L]

I think the bit where he goes bang bang in Murray's necky-weck, which i have frankly watched out of context mostly, is incredibly shittily written. Like, what he says. "WHAT DO YOU GET WHEN YOU CROSS A MENTALLY ILL PERSON WITH ABANDONMENT BY SOCIAL SERVICES?!". Shit line. Shit line. "WHAT DO YOU GET WHEN YOU LEAVE PEOPLE BEHIND?" would've worked better. It's like they were writing the literal clinical definition of Arthur into the script for later refinement and then just never made it flow better.

[phantom_power]

The clunkiness is part of the joke isn't it?

[popcorn]

No I'm with Howl and I don't buy these "oh bits of the script are crap for dramatic effect" theories.

[phantom_power]

I wasn't aware of those theories. It is a pretty standard comedy trope though, making  a set-up needlessly clunky and verbose

[Shaky]

Yeah, it doesn't work if the punchline is the same length as the set-up.

[thecuriousorange]

This film has reaffirmed what a joke-telling master Monkhouse was. Truly one of the greats.

[thecuriousorange]

I'm not being sarcastic by the way.

[H-O-W-L]

I wasn't aware of those theories. It is a pretty standard comedy trope though, making  a set-up needlessly clunky and verbose

I don't get why the belief is that these lines have to be legitimately comedic in structure. There's a difference between making it seem like a real comedy punchline so as to be externally and internally amusing/fitting for a comedian character, and straight up breaking the dramatic pacing of your dialogue to service that. I know he's meant to be The Japer, but fucking hell, even the Cesar Romero era Joker didn't always stick to leadup/punchline rules.

Nitpick but it bothered me that they didn't refine what was basically the most iconic scene in this film for cunts.

[bgmnts]

Cesar Romero's Joker was so fun. I want some more of that Joker.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Finally got around to seeing this, and was surprised how genuinely great it is. Virtually all of the criticisms I've seen of it are nonsense. Can't really think of anything I would change about it.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

No I'm with Howl and I don't buy these "oh bits of the script are crap for dramatic effect" theories.

Uh, that's the character. He's clumsy and unfunny. In fact it's weird that people are looking for any comedy in this. I don't think there is a single scene that was written to be funny or even mildly humorous. (The closest is the scene where his little person coworker can't reach the chain-lock, but that isn't supposed to be funny, it's supposed to be a horrifying sequence (which it is).

Ok not going to go through this 20 page thread responding to all of the other NONSENSE criticisms.

[chveik]

finally watched this, illegally. dunno why but I thought his transformation into an evil dude would've happened much earlier and we would have gotten some nice badass evil action going on. but no, just a plain boring dark comics film. it's quite ironic that social commentateurs lost their shit over this.

I know my fair share about mental illness and it was handled very clumsily. and it seems obvious to me that nothing in the film was supposed to be humorous.

it looks ugly too.

alright cheers. like and suscribe.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

I know my fair share about mental illness and it was handled very clumsily.

Are you suggesting that its portrayal of the real world mental illness that turns individuals into comic book supervillains named "The Joker" was not entirely accurate?

[chveik]

ooh I see what you mean. I guess I didn't find it very convincing, especially in the scene with De Niro.

[Noddy Tomkey]

Phoenix's dancing was wonderful. He's clearly studied some proper stuff and it was lovely to see but would Arthur Fleck really have been in any way versed in whatever the style was? It wasn't exactly disco ffs.

[Mister Six]

Are you suggesting that its portrayal of the real world mental illness that turns individuals into comic book supervillains named "The Joker" was not entirely accurate?

Would be a more convincing defence of the film if it wasn't being lauded for "tackling issues around mental health" etc.

[dissolute ocelot]

Would be a more convincing defence of the film if it wasn't being lauded for "tackling issues around mental health" etc.

It's easy to defend the film if you say it's not meant to be funny, realistic, sympathetic, exciting, or engage with the real world at all, all the characters are intentionally unfunny, uneloquent, unattractive, inconsistent, lumpen and awkward, and it isn't about anything. ETA: And it's not canon.

[H-O-W-L]

Are you suggesting that its portrayal of the real world mental illness that turns individuals into comic book supervillains named "The Joker" was not entirely accurate?

I think the film deserves to be rightly fucking pilloried for attempting to dip its toe into this "social commentary" aspect while also creating the purple-suited goon we're well used to seeing in comics and other films.

The problem with your statement is that the comics around The Japer very rarely try to actually contrast him with real mental health issues, or involve him in realistic mental healthcare. It's this nebulous sphere of "he's insane" without actually referring to real-world traumas and illness and the like, if you get me? Even The Dark Knight knew that you shouldn't actually try and contrast this shit with real social issues, because it's fiction and it's a (heh) clownish caricature of real-world psychotic killers and the like.

By putting itself in a "real" world with real social issues, Joker opens itself up to criticism and contrast with real world issues, and it stubbornly and disgustingly fails to actually do anything with the door it swings open of its own accord. And yes, you can do a realistic and threatening movie with the Jankler while also not touching on this. See The Dark Knight, which did a really good turn of the Joker.

[Kelvin]

He doesn't really become comic book Joker though - so all the stuff about that undercutting the themes rings a bit hollow to me. It's really just about the kind of person who shoots up a school or cinema. Isolated, suffering from various mental health issues, treated like a loser, turns self pity from self harm to harming others. I continue to think that it's a decent depiction of issues mentally ill people face in our society (while avoiding a specific condition), when viewed in the context of a mainstream melodrama.

Its not about a specific condition, but rather the broader issues. And it's not a detailed analysis, it's a film making those issues digestible for a mass audience.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Jesus Christ, some people don't know how to watch movies.

Not everything has to be a by-the-book portrayal of something (and in any event mental illness manifests in so many ways that it's kind of ridiculous to say that something is not "realistic") to gesture toward a broader point with real world implications.

[Mister Six]

That's it, though - they're just gestures. Nothing substantive or meaningful is said. And not only are the gestures devoid of any deeper insight, they're buried under the heavy weight of the Batman franchise and a 1970s aesthetic[nb]And it is just an aesthetic - the business about Joker's comedy set being leaked from the open mic night only makes sense in a modern context when everyone has a video camera in their pockets. Did someone haul a 50lb video camera out to the comedy club to film some no-mark on the off-chance they could send it in to a TV show?[/nb] that exists only because the director thinks (correctly) that putting on a Martin Scorsese mask with distract people into thinking the film is good. [NB]Which, as it turns out, is right.[/nb]

[Kelvin]

That's it, though - they're just gestures. Nothing substantive or meaningful is said.[/nb]

I don't think a mainstream Hollywood film based around a comic book character can ever really be "substantive" in it's ideas, because it also has to be fun and entertaining and digestible for a mass audience. Films like Joker, The Dark Knight and Captain America 2 all deal with complex, socially important themes, but they're still fundamentally simplified, accessible perspectives that don't really dig down into the ideas - they're just more thoughtful than the average blockbuster.

That's not meant as a criticism, either; it's just the nature of the genre. When I judge these films on their themes, I do so within that framework. Factoring in the priorities and limitations of a mainstream Hollywood genre film, films like Joker, The Dark Knight and Cap 2 are relatively ambitious. Once you start comparing them to more complex, less mainstream films, they're obviously going to look very shallow. It's just a very different intent and set of priorities.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

the business about Joker's comedy set being leaked from the open mic night only makes sense in a modern context when everyone has a video camera in their pockets. Did someone haul a 50lb video camera out to the comedy club to film some no-mark on the off-chance they could send it in to a TV show?

Before Arthur takes to the stage, there's an establishing shot of the comics being filmed via an in-house video system. The owners of the club presumably leaked it to De Niro's show for a bit of cheap publicity (he mentions the club in his intro?).