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Joker (2019 Joker film)

Started by Ballad of Ballard Berkley, December 16, 2018, 08:38:21 AM

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popcorn

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on April 05, 2019, 06:21:29 PM
Difficult to think of a character that is more ideologically incoherent than the Joker

He does seem to spend a lot of The Dark Knight moaning about how plans are stupid while coming up with very intricate plans.

Mister Six


Glebe

Anyone think he's dressed maybe a little too like Heath Ledger's Joker?

Quote from: Glebe on April 06, 2019, 02:57:55 AM
Anyone think he's dressed maybe a little too like Heath Ledger's Joker?

Maybe, but I suppose you can't remove Ledger's performance from the DNA of 'grounded' Joker portrayals now.


Trailer looks pretty good, I think. I want to see this.

kalowski

Quote from: Default to the negative on April 06, 2019, 01:49:31 PM
Maybe, but I suppose you can't remove Ledger's performance from the DNA of 'grounded' Joker portrayals now.


Trailer looks pretty good, I think. I want to see this.
Ledger was just aping Nicholson. Jack reinvented the Joker character.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Glebe on April 06, 2019, 02:57:55 AM
Anyone think he's dressed maybe a little too like Heath Ledger's Joker?

He has a somewhat similar look to the mask that Heath Ledger wore during the opening bank robbery in The Dark Knight.






Quote from: kalowski on April 06, 2019, 03:31:51 PM
Ledger was just aping Nicholson. Jack reinvented the Joker character.

I recently rewatched The Dark Knight and only just noticed this but yeah, Heath Ledger definitely based a lot of his performance upon Jack Nicholson's take on the character.  It's still a great performance regardless, mind.

magval

Heath's mask in that scene is in turn from an episode of Batman from the 1960s and was worn by Cesar Romero.



St_Eddie

Quote from: magval on April 06, 2019, 09:12:13 PM
Heath's mask in that scene is in turn from an episode of Batman from the 1960s and was worn by Cesar Romero.



Coo.  It is and all!  Very interesting.

Phil_A

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 06, 2019, 05:39:42 PM
I recently rewatched The Dark Knight and only just noticed this but yeah, Heath Ledger definitely based a lot of his performance upon Jack Nicholson's take on the character.  It's still a great performance regardless, mind.

I don't get that, they're only very superficially similar surely.

To be honest I don't even think the '89 Joker was a particularly great performance from Nicholson. He has some killer lines (no pun intended) but he's just playing an exaggerated version of himself like he does in a lot of his roles. Hamming it up, big style.

The Ledger Joker has a completely different energy, he feels like a genuinely unpredictable, dangerous presence. Although he has funny lines they're played extremely deadpan, he's not constantly winking at the audience as if to say "Boy, this all kinda silly, huh?" like Jack.


St_Eddie

#99
Quote from: Phil_A on April 06, 2019, 10:37:02 PM
I don't get that, they're only very superficially similar surely.

To be honest I don't even think the '89 Joker was a particularly great performance from Nicholson. He has some killer lines (no pun intended) but he's just playing an exaggerated version of himself like he does in a lot of his roles. Hamming it up, big style.

The Ledger Joker has a completely different energy, he feels like a genuinely unpredictable, dangerous presence. Although he has funny lines they're played extremely deadpan, he's not constantly winking at the audience as if to say "Boy, this all kinda silly, huh?" like Jack.

I agree with what you say on the whole but there's an unmistakable influence from Jack Nicholson within Ledger's performance.  It's not something I'd ever picked up on, but it suddenly became noticeable to me on my last viewing.  Perhaps it may be worth going back to the film with a fresh set of eyes, or rather ears?

Joker scenes from The Dark Knight for reference.

BritishHobo

Quote from: popcorn on April 06, 2019, 02:55:44 AM
He does seem to spend a lot of The Dark Knight moaning about how plans are stupid while coming up with very intricate plans.

The Dark Knight felt a bit over-impressed with its own themes in general. I still stand by that that whole speech Gary Oldman gives at the end is fucking guff. The film's also spawned this absolutely bullshit mythology that the Joker is the ultimate dark, unknowable character, and that actors have to descend into some transcendental battle within their own soul to be able to capture him in their performance - although that's more the fault of fans (and Jared Leto) than the film. There's this strange misrepresentation I've seen online for years now that Heath Ledger was haunted by the inescapable blackness of THE JOKER, and that it directly led to his death, which somewhat cheapens a very complicated and horrible tragedy related to larger issues he struggled with. I don't get it. It's just a fucking bloke dressed like a clown cackling and telling Batman that 'actually mate, everything's shit'.

Phil_A

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 06, 2019, 11:03:34 PM
I agree with what you say on the whole but there's an unmistakable influence from Jack Nicholson within Ledger's performance.  It's not something I'd ever picked up on, but it suddenly became noticeable to me on my last viewing.  Perhaps it may be worth going back to the film with a fresh set of eyes, or rather ears?

Joker scenes from The Dark Knight for reference.

Yes, I've rewatched both Jokers and my feeling's still the same. Two very different performances in two tonally disparate films.

I mean come on, its clearly Tom Waits Ledger was channelling more than Nicholson...

Kelvin

Quote from: popcorn on April 06, 2019, 02:55:44 AM
He does seem to spend a lot of The Dark Knight moaning about how plans are stupid while coming up with very intricate plans.

That makes sense for that version in that film, though, considering that he's constantly lying to manipulate people. It serves him to tell Dent that he's like a dog chasing cars, because he wants Dent to focus his anger elsewhere, rather than simply towards him. He's inconsistent in what he tells people, but not in how he behaves.

Quote from: Phil_A on April 06, 2019, 11:46:04 PM
Yes, I've rewatched both Jokers and my feeling's still the same. Two very different performances in two tonally disparate films.

I mean come on, its clearly Tom Waits Ledger was channelling more than Nicholson...

I agree. Any similarities to Nicholson's Joker feel more like by-products of the characters naturally flamboyant persona. Can the people who see Nicholson in the performance point to any moments, or even general aspects, that we should be looking for?

St_Eddie

Quote from: Kelvin on April 06, 2019, 11:50:06 PM
Can the people who see Nicholson in the performance point to any moments, or even general aspects, that we should be looking for?

It's not constant but at times, it's the inflection of his voice, alongside the timing of his line delivery.  It's very Nicholson-esque; the cadence.  Almost like somebody doing a somewhat inaccurate impression of Jack Nicholson's.  If you revisit my previously linked video (which is time stamped to an appropriate example) and close your eyes, so that you're only listening to the dialogue, can you not hear some of Nicholson's voice in there?

Kelvin

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 07, 2019, 12:00:02 AM
It's not constant but at times, it's the inflection of his voice; the cadence.  It's very Nicholson-esque.  Almost like somebody doing a somewhat inaccurate impression of Nicholson's Joker.  If you revisit my previously linked video (which is time stamped to an appropriate example) and close your eyes, so that you're only listening to the dialogue, can you not hear some of Nicholson's voice in there?

Sorry to be a pain in the arse, but that link's not time stamped.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Kelvin on April 07, 2019, 12:06:12 AM
Sorry to be a pain in the arse, but that link's not time stamped.

Oops, sorry about that.  I've now fixed the previous links but here's a fresh one all the same...

Clicky..

Kelvin

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 07, 2019, 12:10:37 AM
Oops, sorry about that.  I've now fixed the previous links but here's a fresh one all the same...

Clicky..

Thanks, St Eddie.

I still don't see it, tbh. Maybe a tiny bit, but I think it's probably purely coincidental, and more a by-product of them both saying blackly comic one liners in a deadpan, sinister way. Always a possibility, though.     

St_Eddie

Quote from: Kelvin on April 07, 2019, 12:18:03 AM
Thanks, St Eddie.

I still don't see it, tbh. Maybe a tiny bit, but I think it's probably purely coincidental, and more a by-product of them both saying blackly comic one liners in a deadpan, sinister way. Always a possibility, though.   

Aye, without being able to ask Heath Ledger himself, it's very subjective as to whether one feels that he took any inspiration from Jack Nicholson or not and even if he were still around today and went on record to say that he didn't, who knows?  It may have been a subconscious thing that he wasn't even aware of doing during filming, being that he was around the right age to have grown up with the Tim Burton movie.  However, I'll concede that I may be hearing things that aren't there by design, nor unconscious influence.

kalowski

Quote from: St_Eddie on April 07, 2019, 12:33:08 AM
Aye, without being able to ask Heath Ledger himself, it's very subjective as to whether one feels that he took any inspiration from Jack Nicholson or not and even if he were still around today and went on record to say that he didn't, who knows?  It may have been a subconscious thing that he wasn't even aware of doing during filming, being that he was around the right age to have grown up with the Tim Burton movie.  However, I'll concede that I may be hearing things that aren't there by design, nor unconscious influence.
This maybe the case, but I do hear Nicholson in Ledger's Joker. And, after all, we'd only had Caesar Romero's Joker previously, Nicholson portrayed the character like he did before anyone else: the manic and the macabre.

Blumf

Mark Hamill has been the other big Joker actor, in various animations and games. Anybody seeing his influence in later films?

Dex Sawash

Burgess Meredith's Penguin is best

Kelvin

Quote from: Blumf on April 07, 2019, 10:01:58 AM
Mark Hamill has been the other big Joker actor, in various animations and games. Anybody seeing his influence in later films?

Not in the films, no. But his performance seems to influence almost every animated version, bar a couple. Lots of changes in pitch and stretched out words. Although again, it's hard to know how much of that is intentional, unconscious or coincidental.

On course, one of the most unique, and imo, probably best Joker performances came from Michael Emerson in the excellent animated film, The Dark Knight Returns: Part 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp3yreeTUmU

Much less flamboyant than other Jokers, but far more sneering, needling and toxic. More than any other Joker, you really want to see him bataranged in the face.

"You're in trouble noooow."

Quote from: Phil_A on April 06, 2019, 11:46:04 PM
I mean come on, its clearly Tom Waits Ledger was channelling more than Nicholson...

I agree more with the idea that he was channelling Brandon Lee's performance in The Crow.

greenman

Quote from: Default to the negative on April 07, 2019, 09:09:56 PM
I agree more with the idea that he was channelling Brandon Lee's performance in The Crow.

A mix of that and Wincott in the same film.

popcorn

Quote from: Kelvin on April 06, 2019, 11:50:06 PM
That makes sense for that version in that film, though, considering that he's constantly lying to manipulate people. It serves him to tell Dent that he's like a dog chasing cars, because he wants Dent to focus his anger elsewhere, rather than simply towards him. He's inconsistent in what he tells people, but not in how he behaves.

Here's that monologue:

Quote
Do I really look like a guy with a plan, Harvey? I don't have a plan. . . The mob has plans, the cops have plans. You know what I am, Harvey? I'm a dog chasing cars... I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. I just do things. I'm just the wrench in the gears. I hate plans. Yours, theirs, everyone's. Maroni has plans. Gordon has plans. Schemers trying to control their worlds. I'm not a schemer, I show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say
that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal, you know I 'm telling the truth. . . It's the schemers who put you are. You were a schemer.

I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds! Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!

I know the Joker is hardly the most reliable of sources, but I don't think he's lying here, and I think this speech is what Nolan wants us to believe about the Joker. He is fairly literally announcing what he symbolises as a character. He's "an agent of chaos", a "wrench in the gears". He opposes plans and organisations and "schemes" but he comes up with more of them in the film than anyone else.

Quote from: BritishHobo on April 06, 2019, 11:04:54 PM
The Dark Knight felt a bit over-impressed with its own themes in general. I still stand by that that whole speech Gary Oldman gives at the end is fucking guff.

Many of the performances, setpieces, sense of danger, and the mood in general of TDK are tremendous. But I agree that the themes are confused, especially with that Oldman speech. "The hero Gotham deserves but not the one Gotham needs right now" - baffling. "Over-impressed with its own themes" is right.

greenman

Quote from: popcorn on April 08, 2019, 08:22:00 AMMany of the performances, setpieces, sense of danger, and the mood in general of TDK are tremendous. But I agree that the themes are confused, especially with that Oldman speech. "The hero Gotham deserves but not the one Gotham needs right now" - baffling. "Over-impressed with its own themes" is right.

I think it could have done with a bit more commitment to the more negative sides of Bruce, his privileged status and his questionable methods, feels more like the film is providing some counter arguments to his right wing nature without really being that interested in exploring it.

popcorn

My big disappointment with the Joker in TDK is that he's just shown to be wrong. I like his argument that human beings are all horrible and motivated by fear and panic - the possibly that he's right is scary. But in the end the criminals and civs are all just lovely and choose not to blow each other up, robbing the character of his power and making him look a bit dim.

Urinal Cake

This seems so unambitious. Like making  a movie of Wolverine's travels in 1980s Asia the plot and aesthetic of a Jackie Chan movie.

At least good acting.

popcorn

It reminds me most of all of You Were Never Really Here. Seems to have the same mum character.

phantom_power

Quote from: popcorn on April 08, 2019, 08:22:00 AM
Here's that monologue:

I know the Joker is hardly the most reliable of sources, but I don't think he's lying here, and I think this speech is what Nolan wants us to believe about the Joker. He is fairly literally announcing what he symbolises as a character. He's "an agent of chaos", a "wrench in the gears". He opposes plans and organisations and "schemes" but he comes up with more of them in the film than anyone else.


I think when he is talking about "plans" though he is talking on a grander scale. Not a specific plan to carry out a specific action but the plans that society are built on. I think the key is talking about gangbangers getting shot or soldiers being blown up. Those aren't part of a specific plan but are just seen as a by-product of the grand plan of society. If that makes sense