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Is Theresa May still in charge? Brexit Discussion Thread Four

Started by Fambo Number Mive, January 03, 2019, 08:46:38 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Is Theresa May still in Cheers?

Yeah she plays Norm
8 (21.1%)
Yes as moral support, bellowing "FUCK HIM UP SAM" at opportune moments
8 (21.1%)
Nah mate of course not; died!
6 (15.8%)
No; her backstage attempt to lez up with Diane Keaton went awry
11 (28.9%)
Mary Celeste
5 (13.2%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 18, 2019, 11:51:17 AM

I think we've established now that you think how we are run, how the collective decisions we make as a society are come to and our own stake and voice in those decisions, doesn't matter. It's trivial, geeky, a bit weird. I disagree, for the poor especially, it's the only truly effective and significant way they have of shaping the forces that govern and exploit them - we would not have an NHS or welfare state of the poor hadn't used their democratic stake to overrule the vested interests of their betters after WW2 - they 'took back control'.

You are entitled to sneer and belittle and trivialize that if you want, but as far as I'm concerned it's impossible to have a more equal society without having a more democratic one. Millions of people in this country don't want to be ruled from on high by the EU, whether it's good or bad they don't want the decisions that affect them delivered from on high by an elite political class as a fait accompli - whether it's something you personally enjoy or not, they want agency.

HOW WE ARE RUN MATTERS, not just the outcomes.

How inspirational. You should mention that at your next Labour party branch meeting.

hummingofevil

The easiest way to put an end to the concept of 2nd referendum would be to boycott it.

Replies From View

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on January 19, 2019, 10:37:38 AM
Indeed: https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,70371.msg3669570.html#msg3669570

Although to be fair if I was earning £28k per year I wouldn't consider myself a financial failure.  (I'd be disappointed in myself if I was spending my time sneering at socialists on CaB, however.)  On his own he earns more than twice what I get.

Zetetic

Starmer emphasising that the choice is now new deal with CU+SM 'alignment' or second ref to Fabians.

As ever, god knows whether this reflects position of leadership and rest of the PLP.

Alberon

From the Telegraph this morning.

QuoteTheresa May has left European diplomats in a state of "disbelief" following a series of phone calls to EU leaders in which she made no change to her demands despite her Brexit plan being voted down by a 230-vote margin this week.

Senior EU diplomatic sources said that Mrs May's unchanged stance was "greeted with incredulity" following a call with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Thursday night.

"It was the same old story - the same set of demands - all unchanged despite the defeat," said the source with knowledge of the calls.

The PM is stubborn to the point of insanity if this is true, and I find it hard to doubt it.

biggytitbo

This is a sober read for anyone advocating the Norway option, or indeed anyone who believes the EU is not a major blocker for a government seeking to pursue left wing policies. Despite Norway not being a full member of the EU, unpopular neoliberal right wing policies are repeatedly forced on them by EU rules - https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/norways-bad-deal

QuoteAs the shambles of the Brexit negotiations roll on — and after the xenophobic arguments put forth during the referendum campaign itself — it's easy to understand why many on the left are casting around for solutions like Norway's. But it should be seen in its proper context: put simply, the deterioration of Norway's much-vaunted welfare state shows just how difficult it is to pursue left-wing policies while obeying Single Market rules and EU directives. For those hoping that a Corbyn government might succeed, the 'Norway model' is an outcome to be avoided rather than emulated.

This is the future for a Corbyn government if we stay in the EU in any form.

Replies From View

Wasn't the UK the main country pushing for those Thatcherite enforcements though?

biggytitbo

Yes, and leaving the EU removes the main way they seek to permenetly lock us into these policies regardless of what we vote for at home.

Phil_A

Quote from: oooft on January 19, 2019, 01:51:03 AM
Sheer penis envy. Tell your missus hello from the "virile one". She'll know.

Why, is she another one of your harassment victims?

Paul Calf

I'd suggest that a greater threat to a Corbyn government's implementation of its plans is that we don't have one, but we do have a right-wing Tory government and that doesn't seem likely to change for at least the first three years outside the EU.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Replies From View on January 19, 2019, 10:57:48 AM
Although to be fair if I was earning £28k per year I wouldn't consider myself a financial failure.  (I'd be disappointed in myself if I was spending my time sneering at socialists on CaB, however.)  On his own he earns more than twice what I get.

Now, now. There's more important things than money, don'tchaknow?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 19, 2019, 01:12:56 PM
Yes, and leaving the EU removes the main way they seek to permenetly lock us into these policies regardless of what we vote for at home.

You do realise that what 'we' have been voting for at home is the tories, right?

Johnny Yesno

One way round the issues of a second referendum might be to point out that the first one was undemocratic, given that it didn't include all stakeholders. It could include all EU citizens resident in the UK (like what biggy reckons is democratic) and/or all UK citizens living in the EU.

olliebean

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 19, 2019, 01:12:56 PM
Yes, and leaving the EU removes the main way they seek to permenetly lock us into these policies regardless of what we vote for at home.

Depending, of course, on the precise details of the deal we eventually end up making with them. What it certainly removes is our ability to have any future influence over these policies.

mothman

She's either completely insane and/or so utterly evil that she is prepared to destroy the country in pursuit of Conservative dogma, or she's actively gaming the system to ensure we stay in. I can't account for her behaviour any other way at this point. Of course, to even believe that the latter explanation might be correct would itself be madness. That a modern Tory politician might behave so altruistically with no guarantee that even posterity might judge her fairly.

Mr_Simnock

Quote from: Replies From View on January 19, 2019, 10:57:48 AM
Although to be fair if I was earning £28k per year I wouldn't consider myself a financial failure.  (I'd be disappointed in myself if I was spending my time sneering at socialists on CaB, however.)  On his own he earns more than twice what I get.


I enjoy sneering at certain pompous pricks in these threads and I don't care if they are socialists (well they like to think they are) or not. Actually on this front while we are bring up what I earn just in passing if I just sit in my job for the next 2 years I will be on about £33k (ta very much) oh and its been hinted to me again that I should go for a higher band post that would see me earning about £35-£37k, keep me going just about I think :).

biggytitbo

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on January 19, 2019, 02:06:17 PM
One way round the issues of a second referendum might be to point out that the first one was undemocratic, given that it didn't include all stakeholders. It could include all EU citizens resident in the UK (like what biggy reckons is democratic) and/or all UK citizens living in the EU.


The main issue with the 2nd referendum is for it to be legitimate, and be regarded as 'final' (eg the loser doesn't demand a 3rd) is that it respects the result of the 2nd. So no remain option, it's a referendum on how we leave, not if.




jobotic

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 19, 2019, 03:16:27 PM

I enjoy sneering at certain pompous pricks in these threads and I don't care if they are socialists (well they like to think they are) or not. Actually on this front while we are bring up what I earn just in passing if I just sit in my job for the next 2 years I will be on about £33k (ta very much) oh and its been hinted to me again that I should go for a higher band post that would see me earning about £35-£37k, keep me going just about I think :).

You're sneering is very effective, particularly those Star Trek pictures. Oh no, now I'm doing shit sneering.

jobotic

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 19, 2019, 03:20:42 PM

The main issue with the 2nd referendum is for it to be legitimate, and be regarded as 'final' (eg the loser doesn't demand a 3rd) is that it respects the result of the 2nd. So no remain option, it's a referendum on how we leave, not if.

Yeah, we want democracy just not too much. Let's fix the injustice of allowing people that were wrongly not allowed the vote the first time to have a vote in a second referendum, but not risk getting a different result. Ingenious.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 19, 2019, 03:16:27 PM

I enjoy sneering at certain pompous pricks in these threads and I don't care if they are socialists (well they like to think they are) or not. Actually on this front while we are bring up what I earn just in passing if I just sit in my job for the next 2 years I will be on about £33k (ta very much) oh and its been hinted to me again that I should go for a higher band post that would see me earning about £35-£37k, keep me going just about I think :).

I see you are a Heimat fan - your only saving grace, sadly.

https://youtu.be/hPeqRQxlsjk?t=5818

royce coolidge

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 19, 2019, 03:16:27 PM

I enjoy sneering at certain pompous pricks in these threads and I don't care if they are socialists (well they like to think they are) or not. Actually on this front while we are bring up what I earn just in passing if I just sit in my job for the next 2 years I will be on about £33k (ta very much) oh and its been hinted to me again that I should go for a higher band post that would see me earning about £35-£37k, keep me going just about I think :).

Well everyone needs a hobby,yours is just a bit pathetic you odd man.

studpuppet

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 19, 2019, 03:16:27 PM

I enjoy sneering at certain pompous pricks in these threads and I don't care if they are socialists (well they like to think they are) or not. Actually on this front while we are bring up what I earn just in passing if I just sit in my job for the next 2 years I will be on about £33k (ta very much) oh and its been hinted to me again that I should go for a higher band post that would see me earning about £35-£37k, keep me going just about I think :).


chveik

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 19, 2019, 03:16:27 PM

I enjoy sneering at certain pompous pricks in these threads and I don't care if they are socialists (well they like to think they are) or not. Actually on this front while we are bring up what I earn just in passing if I just sit in my job for the next 2 years I will be on about £33k (ta very much) oh and its been hinted to me again that I should go for a higher band post that would see me earning about £35-£37k, keep me going just about I think :).

your friends the Greeks will be very glad to hear that

greenman

Quote from: mothman on January 19, 2019, 02:16:54 PM
She's either completely insane and/or so utterly evil that she is prepared to destroy the country in pursuit of Conservative dogma, or she's actively gaming the system to ensure we stay in. I can't account for her behaviour any other way at this point. Of course, to even believe that the latter explanation might be correct would itself be madness. That a modern Tory politician might behave so altruistically with no guarantee that even posterity might judge her fairly.

Everything to me seems to point to her being stuck in her own little world with a few close advisors and caring for .little but hanging onto power by any means.

Replies From View

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 19, 2019, 03:16:27 PM
I enjoy sneering at certain pompous pricks in these threads and I don't care if they are socialists (well they like to think they are) or not. Actually on this front while we are bring up what I earn just in passing if I just sit in my job for the next 2 years I will be on about £33k (ta very much) oh and its been hinted to me again that I should go for a higher band post that would see me earning about £35-£37k, keep me going just about I think :).

Unfortunately helping kids with special needs will never pay me that much, but thinking of myself as a socialist was always bound to have its sacrifices I guess.

Congrats on being so much better than me.

mothman

Quote from: greenman on January 19, 2019, 04:17:58 PM
Everything to me seems to point to her being stuck in her own little world with a few close advisors and caring for .little but hanging onto power by any means.

Keep it to the Trump threads, please, Oh, no, wait...

Alberon

She is going to bring the same plan back to Parliament, isn't she?

The government is not supposed to submit a failed bill multiple times, are they? Who decides if the bill is the same though? If it's the Speaker she is fucked. What's the rules on this?

biggytitbo

Whilst this is obviously May's own unique failure, in retrospect its quite obvious it would not matter who was in charge the last 2 years, we'd have ended up in the same place. The vast majority of those involved with the debacle - 99% of them if you include the EU themselves, never respected the referendum result and are absolutely possessed with the unswerving conviction that leaving is an almost unimaginable disaster that has to be prevented in some way. It's a bit like wondering why your team keeps losing every game and ends up getting relegated when 9 of the first team are trying to score for the opposition.




DrGreggles

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 19, 2019, 05:48:27 PM
Whilst this is obviously May's own unique failure, in retrospect its quite obvious it would not matter who was in charge the last 2 years, we'd have ended up in the same place. The vast majority of those involved with the debacle - 99% of them if you include the EU themselves, never respected the referendum result and are absolutely possessed with the unswerving conviction that leaving is an almost unimaginable disaster that has to be prevented in some way. It's a bit like wondering why your team keeps losing every game and ends up getting relegated when 9 of the first team are trying to score for the opposition.

Read more at www.shitanalogies.com

Paul Calf