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Is Theresa May still in charge? Brexit Discussion Thread Four

Started by Fambo Number Mive, January 03, 2019, 08:46:38 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Is Theresa May still in Cheers?

Yeah she plays Norm
8 (21.1%)
Yes as moral support, bellowing "FUCK HIM UP SAM" at opportune moments
8 (21.1%)
Nah mate of course not; died!
6 (15.8%)
No; her backstage attempt to lez up with Diane Keaton went awry
11 (28.9%)
Mary Celeste
5 (13.2%)

Total Members Voted: 38

Replies From View

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 01:42:27 PM
You dismiss people you don't agree with

Granted this is a fairly well-worn trolling trope.  "You just outright dismiss people you don't agree with."

Phil_A

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 01:42:27 PM
Troll? You dismiss people you don't agree with with 'Russian bot' these days, grandad.

Quite right, you should always call things what they are, don't you agree Komrade Biggivitch?

Paul Calf

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 01:42:27 PM
Troll? You dismiss people you don't agree with with 'Russian bot' these days, grandad.

No, but you are actually a troll. That might not be your intention, but it's the practical effect of your constantly spamming these threads with the same long-refuted talking points.

gilbertharding

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 12:44:13 PM

Not really true, the political establishment basically shut up shop on Europe 35 years ago, and put it off the table as an issue people could have a meaningful democratic say about. We didn't join the euro, thankfully (despite the current failed soothsayers on brexit saying we should), but that was more to do with our disastrous exit from the ERM. We didn't have much of a say on any of this, it was entirely a squabble between our 'political masters'.

Perhaps, as the price of being in the EU was less than 6.3% of annual government expenditure (and the benefits... well, we'll see), they judged it a no-brainer...


Buelligan

Quote from: chveik on January 04, 2019, 12:58:45 PM
so what? you can be against something without being directly affected by it.

Yes you can but if you only have theoretical or philosophical reasons for taking a course of action that causes real life and profound harm to other people, you owe it to them, if you're not a complete cunt, to consider whether your reasons are reason enough, whether your feelings are more important than their lives.  I think that's fair.

biggytitbo

I don't want us to leave the EU because of my 'feelings' I want us to leave because I think how we're governed and how the country is run is profoundly broken and we can't begin to fix that, and all the other fundamental problems we face until we have a more meaningful, accountable and transparent democratic process, that properly represents everyone and gives them more power over the decisions that affect their lives. It is actually quite important.


Buelligan

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
I don't want us to leave the EU because of my 'feelings' I want us to leave because I think how we're governed and how the country is run is profoundly broken and we can't begin to fix that, and all the other fundamental problems we face until we have a more meaningful, accountable and transparent democratic process, that properly represents everyone and gives them more power over the decisions that affect their lives. It is actually quite important.

So you're willing to throw us million onto the bonfire without even letting us vote on it?

Because you feel that would be better for us.  Because there are always casualties and we're a minority, like the Greeks.

katzenjammer

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 10:27:44 AM

People living in the UK are entitled to vote on fundamental issues about how their country is run without being guilt tripped by people who don't even live here though presumably? The alternative is a small minority of people who don't want to live in the UK get to force the 17.4m people who do to remain in the EU against their will which doesnt sound right.

Cuellar's already pointed it out (you ignored him of course), but you've royally fucked yourself here.  The three million or so EU citizens in the UK, or 4.6% of the population if you prefer, should have had a say, even you acknowledge this.   They live in the UK and pay taxes in the UK.  If they had have done the vote would have been to stay in the EU.  The fact that they were denied makes the referendum a sham.  It's not democracy it's tyranny of the majority.


manticore

Quote from: Replies From View on January 04, 2019, 01:21:14 PM
I don't wish to belittle anyone who agrees with some or a lot of what biggy says, incidentally.  biggy takes his arguments from real people on reddit and of course there will be some overlap with the real views of people here.  And of course if you agree with those views please talk about them; I just don't think you should let biggy be your mouthpiece for them.

For all his great faults biggy has almost (with a couple of others) single-handedly prevented this from being a handwringing/news ticker thread, and a lot of his arguments about the nature of the EU are substantially true. An alternative is people dismissing as 'fanciful' any suggestion of a positive movement that might actually have a chance of changing and saving the EU and Britain with it.

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 08:15:35 AM
I'd hope of we had a second referendum Corbyn's wing of the labour party, presuming it doesn't go hide under some coats, could be more vocal about the democratic and constitutional issues with the EU, in a way that Tony Benn would have done if he was alive or indeed the way the left of the party did in 1975.

Biggy isn't my mouthpiece but just here for instance he's right.

Paul Calf

Given the reaction to his '7/10' comments in the last one, I can't see how anyone who wanted a Labour government could possibly imagine that a referendum campaign was the right time for any Labour leader to start rehearsing the well-worn talking points about the EU's imperfections.

Paul Calf

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
I don't want us to leave the EU because of my 'feelings' I want us to leave because I think how we're governed and how the country is run is profoundly broken and we can't begin to fix that, and all the other fundamental problems we face until we have a more meaningful, accountable and transparent democratic process, that properly represents everyone and gives them more power over the decisions that affect their lives. It is actually quite important.

What is it about our (appallingly unrepresentative) democratic process that EU membership is stopping us from fixing?

Zetetic

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on January 04, 2019, 11:58:17 AM
When I think about the current situation in Greece after their treatment by the EU [Z: well, the IMF and ECB primarily - at least according to Varoufakis] it absolutely fucking disgusts me.

I think it would be best, then, not to:
1) do anything that makes Greece more dependent on the rest of the Eurozone
    (by, for example, risking trade barriers from Greece to the UK or travel or investment barriers from the UK to Greece)

2) do anything that exacerbates issues with under- and unemployment amongst Greeks, particularly young Greeks, by making it harder for them to seek employment elsewhere in Europe
    (by, for example, preventing them from working in the UK)

3) do anything that seems to progress the identification of the Eurozone with the EU
    (by, for example, removing a major non-Eurozone member state of the EU)


king_tubby

"We won't be able to get certain foods like bananas or tomatoes but it's not like we won't be able to eat. And we'll be leaving at a time when British produce is beginning to come into season so it's the best possible time to leave with no deal."

Not my words, the words of an anonymous Tory leaver.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/increasing-number-of-tory-mps-considering-no-deal-brexit-as-a-viable-plan-b_uk_5c2f6bbce4b0407e908ad874?

"And we'll be leaving at a time when British produce is beginning to come into season so it's the best possible time to leave with no deal."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungry_gap

imitationleather

I would gladly reintroduce the death penalty for those cunts.

Cuellar


Replies From View

Quote from: manticore on January 04, 2019, 04:56:24 PM
For all his great faults biggy has almost (with a couple of others) single-handedly prevented this from being a handwringing/news ticker thread

No, that was never going to happen.  You are severely underestimating the abilities of people in this thread who aren't biggy.

biggytitbo

Quote from: manticore on January 04, 2019, 04:56:24 PM
For all his great faults biggy has almost (with a couple of others) single-handedly prevented this from being a handwringing/news ticker thread, and a lot of his arguments about the nature of the EU are substantially true. An alternative is people dismissing as 'fanciful' any suggestion of a positive movement that might actually have a chance of changing and saving the EU and Britain with it.

Biggy isn't my mouthpiece but just here for instance he's right.


It could be that being a lot more honest about the many problems with the EU would persuade more people to begrudgingly stay (with radical reform on the table), which has always been the natural British attitude to the EU forever, than trying to ram it down our throats in this really phoney way that doesn't connect at all with millions of people, projecting the EU flag onto the London Eye and making out anyone who isnt emotionally invested into it as a racist idiot. Basically not repeating all the same mistakes the political classes have made for 20 years, that has made them so despised and divorced from the people they claim to represent.


If any of that had any chance of happening I might be pursued to soften my position, but I just can't see them ever changing absent the kind of political shock only something like brexit can deliver, all they are concerned about in reversing the referendum is going back to the status quo that serves them so well and we all know it.

Zetetic

competitive labour costs which are lower than Italy, France or Germany

the lowest corporation tax rate in the G20 - 19% falling to 17% by 2020

excellent labour relations

excellent incentives to investors, including grants covering between 10% and 45% of capital expenditure costs

can get a 230% tax relief on research and development costs

London is recognised globally for its flexible, ... approach to regulating its capital markets.

The combination of low tax rates and Patent Box could deliver an Effective Tax Rate (ETR) of 11% to 13%.

The UK has one of the most competitive tax regimes in the world for both funds and asset managers.

Funds that are domiciled in the UK can take advantage of around 120 double taxation agreements - more than in any other country.




Wonder what the plan is for Global Britain to keep up foreign investment.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Buelligan on January 04, 2019, 11:11:39 AM
It absolutely fucking disgusts me.  Tear up a million peoples' lives without a second thought, without even the grace to be ashamed, because it won't affect you and you have zero cultural attachment.

To be fair, being a Paul McCartney fan, he has zero culture.

Quote from: Buelligan on January 04, 2019, 12:13:00 PM
How does fucking over a million Brits help?

That sounds exhausting, but if duty calls, I'll give it a go.

Uncle TechTip

Quote from: biggytitbo on January 04, 2019, 03:41:47 PM
I don't want us to leave the EU because of my 'feelings' I want us to leave because I think how we're governed and how the country is run is profoundly broken and we can't begin to fix that, and all the other fundamental problems we face until we have a more meaningful, accountable and transparent democratic process, that properly represents everyone and gives them more power over the decisions that affect their lives. It is actually quite important.

If you're hoping for a change in the voting system at Westminster you'll be disappointed, we had a referendum in 2012 on this and the matter is considered settled.

I always said I'd accept brexit if it meant a full reconstitution of the UK, abolition of the monarchy, federal & regional government structures, but that's not on offer is it? And our membership of the EU actually has no bearing on it.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Uncle TechTip on January 04, 2019, 09:40:50 PM
If you're hoping for a change in the voting system at Westminster you'll be disappointed, we had a referendum in 2012 on this and the matter is considered settled.

2011, but yes, it's ironic that virtually no one gave a fuck about a referendum that could have effected genuine political change, yet five years later they threw their toys out of the pram over something that will do no such thing.

The problem with that referendum was that Proportional representation wasn't on the Ballet and instead had some stupid system with Alternative Votes.

Replies From View

Quote from: Delete Delete Delete on January 05, 2019, 01:12:22 AM
The problem with that referendum was that Proportional representation wasn't on the Ballet and instead had some stupid system with Alternative Votes.

But many people who wanted change were conned to vote for FPTP in the misguided belief that a referendum with proportional representation on the ballot would be offered at some later point.

Pisses me off to think of some of the conversations I had with people at that time.  "Hold your ground," they were saying.  "Don't let them fob us off with AV."  Yeah, okay; I'm sure the government are going to listen to your appeals after you've ticked FPTP.


Shoulders?-Stomach!

And the AV campaign was run by Nick Clegg almost directly after he had gone in with the Tories and betrayed Lib Dem voters over tuition fees.

buttgammon

Yuck, I forgot all about the AV referendum and the hideous 'no' campaign. A whole depressing charade indeed, although I remember thinking at the time that the association with the Lib Dems was at least as decisive as the fact that AV was a cop-out compared to actual PR (as Shoulders has just pointed out before I had time to post this). For what it's worth, I wanted (and still want) proportional representation as part of a bigger programme of political change that includes getting rid of the Lords and the monarchy; it's still a very flawed system but it may well be the only chance we will have ever had to change the voting system.

Britain really can't do referendums well, can it?

DrGreggles

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on January 05, 2019, 10:16:00 AM
And the AV campaign was run by Nick Clegg almost directly after he had gone in with the Tories and betrayed Lib Dem voters over tuition fees.

At least it didn't damage his political career in the long run.

Cuellar

People saying we might not have tomatoes in the event of No Deal, but I don't even like tomatoes that much so I can't see a problem really