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First Blood

Started by bgmnts, January 06, 2019, 01:04:59 AM

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Shit Good Nose

Quote from: beanheadmcginty on September 20, 2019, 11:29:24 AM
The Den of Geek review says that there is a European cut and an American cut, with the European cut having an extra scene at the beginning. I saw it last night and the scene they describe was nowhere to be seen. Does this mean we've Brexited already?

Previews were 100 minutes dead on if memory serves, and IMDB has it listed as 1hr 41mins, but pretty much everything else (including reviews - both American and British) has it as 89 minutes. 

BBFC says uncut at 89 minutes, so that's the running time for the version they would have received.

Wouldn't be surprised if ten minutes were cut by the studio or distributor to trim it to make it a lean 90 minute action film and to squeeze in more showings.

My mate said that there is what looks like a glaring cut sequence in the third act where Rambo gets the shit kicked out of him to near death, but then in the next scene he's magically all healed up.


Quote from: bgmnts on September 20, 2019, 11:33:02 AM
How can you be anti-gun and churn out Rambo films?

Because it's pure entertainment.  Stallone is generally known for action films and, as kidsick said above, he obviously knows his audience.  Fred Vogel doesn't go around murdering people and babies, or advocating it.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 20, 2019, 11:09:11 AM
The mate I mentioned above used to be a freelance film journalist in New York (was sent home/recalled with almost every other Brit a few days after 9/11) and he met and interviewed Stallone a few times.  A REALLY nice guy, straddles the political line between democrat and republican (he's always said if you want to work out his political views, watch F.I.S.T., which to this day remains one of his most underrated films in my opinion) but rarely gets involved on either side, surprisingly strong views about guns (the last time my mate interviewed him was shortly after Columbine, and back then he [Stallone] apparently wanted them effectively banned for personal ownership, not sure what he thinks these days but a quote on his Wiki page says he's "the most anti-gun person working in Hollywood today").  Famously finds Trump a source of entertainment and amusement (his "I love Trump" quote often taken out of context).

If anything he'd probably prefer to NOT talk politics.

This is why, Cobra* aside, none of Sly's films can be comfortably classed as right-wing propaganda. The Rambo sequels are deeply confused in terms of 'message'. They're basically saying, "War is Hell, please think about the victims, woohoo, look at this guy's intestines being blown out the top of his head!" They can't be taken seriously as any kind of comment on anything.

* I watched Cobra again recently, and it makes Dirty Harry look like Jeremy Corbyn mounting an anti-litter campaign. I know it was - ho-ho - hacked to pieces in the editing room, but Sly's message is loud and clear: fuck the courts, let's string the bastards up.

Blumf

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 20, 2019, 12:59:34 PM
but Sly's message is loud and clear: fuck the courts, let's string the bastards up.

And eating pizza with scissors.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

While living in an apartment overshadowed by a MASSIVE Pepsi sign.

Operty1

This isn't the Stallone sequel i wanted, why on earth haven't they produced a sequel to 'Over The Top'.

It's the story of a man trying to win back the love of his son and win the world arm-wrestling championship in Las Vegas.

What i want to know is, what is Lincoln Hawk doing now?

Shaky

There are a lot of ANGRY DUDES going apeshit over any criticism for this new Rambobo flick, perceiving it as an attack on their values blah blah blah.

It's the fifth entry in the world's most ridiculous franchise, for fuck's sake - 12 years after the almost accidentally decent last one. It was hardly going to be "good" per se.

kidsick5000

Quote from: Shaky on September 20, 2019, 03:02:00 PM
There are a lot of ANGRY DUDES going apeshit over any criticism for this new Rambobo flick, perceiving it as an attack on their values blah blah blah.

Oh yeah. The review I wrote for my paper went big as it was one of the first to go out (Time zones etc)
Cue e-mails about how I don't get it.
No death threats, not like the time I reviewed Johnny English Strikes Again.
But I did get one about how people like me won't ever understand Stallone/Rambo or the rock-band KISS !

Blumf

Rambo - Forth Blood is starting on Sony Movies now, if anyone cares.

McChesney Duntz

Quote from: kidsick5000 on September 20, 2019, 04:09:30 PM
No death threats, not like the time I reviewed Johnny English Strikes Again.

Wait, what now?

By the way, I don't care about this franchise, like, at all, but I hope they make at least one more, with him even older, so I can have a chance to sell my dream strapline:

HE WAS IN COUNTRY. NOW HE'S INCONTINENT.

Fabian Thomsett

LOL

Quote"I felt degraded and dehumanized after I left the theater," Morrell said, expanding on his thoughts on Rambo: Last Blood in an email to Newsweek.

"Instead of being soulful, this new movie lacks one," Morrell said. "I felt I was less a human being for having seen it, and today that's an unfortunate message."

https://www.newsweek.com/rambo-last-blood-review-david-morrell-sylvester-stallone-1460553

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

This film really does sound terrible. It's a shame, albeit a minor one, as it would've been quite nice if Stallone had bid adieu to Rambo on a relatively high note (he could've easily done that by not making any sequels to First Blood at all, eh readers?)

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 22, 2019, 05:21:12 PM
This film really does sound terrible. It's a shame, albeit a minor one, as it would've been quite nice if Stallone had bid adieu to Rambo on a relatively high note (he could've easily done that by not making any sequels to First Blood at all, eh readers?)

I still think that 4 is a decent film.  Yes, incredibly violent, but it's REALLY grim and nasty very sobering violence played over a very low-key and morose story.  It's a million miles away from the laughable smoking boots jingoism of 2 and 3.  And, going by the general consensus for 5, it sounds like old Sly should've left it there, closing John Rambo's journey returning to his father's place as a properly free and cleansed man.

I've just talked myself into wanting to watch Rambo 4 now...

kalowski

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 20, 2019, 12:59:34 PM

* I watched Cobra again recently, and it makes Dirty Harry look like Jeremy Corbyn mounting an anti-litter campaign. I know it was - ho-ho - hacked to pieces in the editing room, but Sly's message is loud and clear: fuck the courts, let's string the bastards up.
Hold on now. Dirty Harry is not some piece of right wing propoganda. The sequels are, but DH is much more nuanced

SavageHedgehog

I'd leave Magnum Force out of that, which questions the values of the first more than the first questions its own values. Both very good films, I also think The Enforcer is very entertaining, the other two less so.

As for Last Blood it's a pretty odd way to close a near forty year series of films, a rather tawdry and cheap film from a series that once racked up the then biggest budget of all time. It is true that for the most part the character could be any Stallone character from any lesser-tier Stallone vehicle rather than Rambo, outside of having a penchant for knives and arrows. Well he is still a Nam vet, we know as at one point he has a flashback consisting of newsreel footage with speeches from Johnson and Nixon playing on top. Not for me to say I suppose, but I'm not convinced this is how someone who was actually in Vietnam would remember it.

Still, it's no A Good Day to Die Hard, by which I mean its not completely worthless. There is some tacky fun to be had; one chap in the row in front of me was roaring at the finale. It is also the first sequel to consistently portray Rambo as damaged and disturbed since the first film, which does add something. Critics have criticised the violence as being exclusively cathartic or celebratory rather than disturbing, but I'm not so sure.

Probably should have stopped at 4 though.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

In about a year's time, Stallone will admit that this Rambo film was shit. He'll then attempt to make one final sequel.

Big Mclargehuge

First Blood is one of my all time favourite action films. In part because the direction and cine is great, in part because the actings top notch. But the heart. The absolute heart of this film is it's script. which portrays the "War is hell" side of Rambo's character and his mental health issues that have spawned from the trauma of war and the callousness of the people who don't understand and crucially don't really WANT to understand the horror they've subjected these men to.

it's a fantastic movie that I hold in very high regard (I genuinely think it's probably Stallones best serious work) I was so smitten with this film I immediately went out and picked up First blood: Part 2. And it proceeded to throw all the mental health and deeper plotlines clean out the window, it retconned what was effectively a broken man who was beginning his road to recovery, making out that Rambo was RIGHT to do what he did in the first film because had he not he wouldn't have been called up to serve his country this time. and then it pulped the original film into an all out action smoothie that was devoid of any talent or merit that endered me to the first one...it was really only downhill from there.

The Culture Bunker

Quote from: Big Mclargehuge on September 23, 2019, 11:18:02 AM
First Blood is one of my all time favourite action films. In part because the direction and cine is great, in part because the actings top notch. But the heart. The absolute heart of this film is it's script. which portrays the "War is hell" side of Rambo's character and his mental health issues that have spawned from the trauma of war and the callousness of the people who don't understand and crucially don't really WANT to understand the horror they've subjected these men to.
With this in mind, the original ending where Rambo punches his own card makes more sense.

But for some reason, my favourite moment in the film is when he hijacks the National Guard truck and tells the terrified driver "don't look at me, look at the road. That's how accidents happen".

Big Mclargehuge

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on September 23, 2019, 11:35:17 AM
With this in mind, the original ending where Rambo punches his own card makes more sense.

But for some reason, my favourite moment in the film is when he hijacks the National Guard truck and tells the terrified driver "don't look at me, look at the road. That's how accidents happen".

I love that bit to! though the bit where the standoff comes to a close when his original squad leader turns up really is the point to me where the film goes above and beyond your "Commando's" and your "Cobra's" and becomes something really special :)

The Culture Bunker

I do give credit to Stallone for Rambo's ending speech: it would have been easy for it to come across as absurd and/or silly (if, say, it had been Arnie saying the exact same words) but he manages to convey a man who has been through utter hell for his country, yet has been turned into a social outcast for it.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on September 23, 2019, 11:55:12 AM
I do give credit to Stallone for Rambo's ending speech: it would have been easy for it to come across as absurd and/or silly (if, say, it had been Arnie saying the exact same words) but he manages to convey a man who has been through utter hell for his country, yet has been turned into a social outcast for it.

He's got genuine actor chops, he just doesn't exercise them as much as he should.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: kalowski on September 22, 2019, 06:10:56 PM
Hold on now. Dirty Harry is not some piece of right wing propoganda. The sequels are, but DH is much more nuanced

Sorry, you're quite right, I should've been clearer - I was referring to the character of Harry as depicted in the sequels, not the great original film.

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 23, 2019, 02:36:21 PM
He's got genuine actor chops, he just doesn't exercise them as much as he should.

I naively assumed that this final (?) Rambo film would be an attempt to bring the franchise back to its more thoughtful, interesting roots, thus necessitating an actual acting performance from yer man. But it's not that at all, clearly.

I do hope that Sly has at least one more 'proper' performance in him. He was great in Rocky Balboa and the Creed films, but it would be nice to see him try another standalone character drama a la Copland. An understated little indie film, maybe. 

Gulftastic

Didn't he get cheesed off at the lack of serious acting noms for his turn in Cop Land? And then go back to making brainless commercial stuff in a fit of pique?

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: Gulftastic on September 23, 2019, 08:17:11 PM
Didn't he get cheesed off at the lack of serious acting noms for his turn in Cop Land? And then go back to making brainless commercial stuff in a fit of pique?

Wasn't it more that, despite receiving good reviews for his performance, the film itself didn't do particularly well at the box office? Stallone has said that, although he's proud of Cop Land, it hurt his career for years afterwards.

I've never really understood that, though. Surely if he'd carried on in the serious character actor vein, as opposed to making more shit action movies and thrillers, he could've carved out a whole new career for himself?


greenman

Quote from: SavageHedgehog on September 22, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
I'd leave Magnum Force out of that, which questions the values of the first more than the first questions its own values. Both very good films, I also think The Enforcer is very entertaining, the other two less so.

As for Last Blood it's a pretty odd way to close a near forty year series of films, a rather tawdry and cheap film from a series that once racked up the then biggest budget of all time. It is true that for the most part the character could be any Stallone character from any lesser-tier Stallone vehicle rather than Rambo, outside of having a penchant for knives and arrows. Well he is still a Nam vet, we know as at one point he has a flashback consisting of newsreel footage with speeches from Johnson and Nixon playing on top. Not for me to say I suppose, but I'm not convinced this is how someone who was actually in Vietnam would remember it.

Still, it's no A Good Day to Die Hard, by which I mean its not completely worthless. There is some tacky fun to be had; one chap in the row in front of me was roaring at the finale. It is also the first sequel to consistently portray Rambo as damaged and disturbed since the first film, which does add something. Critics have criticised the violence as being exclusively cathartic or celebratory rather than disturbing, but I'm not so sure.

Probably should have stopped at 4 though.

Saw it with a friend who still followers latter day Stallone and honestly I preferred it to the 4th film, maybe not as memorable action wise but as you say the first time since the original that the character has actually been played up as genuinely disturbed.

Honestly what it brings to mind most for me is at attempt to make a more mainstream version of You Were Never Really Here. I admit the 4th film whilst again whilst being more memorable action wise didn't it entirely well with me using such brutally real war crimes for a standard action story but here at least there is some attempt to do a bit more than that even if it obviously ends up far more clichéd and melodramatic than Ramseys film.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Here's Sly in conversation at the Zurich Film Festival in 2008.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFLMdzdYMvw

He's an intelligent, interesting man, an actual artiste if you will, who has nevertheless spent much of his career churning out boneheaded dogshit. He is, of course, fully aware of this. He's nothing if not charmingly self-deprecating when it comes to his artistic failures, and that's why he's such a fascinating paradox.

This is a man who was once touted as the new Brando. He was a critically-acclaimed actor, writer and director who eventually turned his back on artistic integrity and became a blockbusting cartoon of his own making. At sporadic points throughout his career he's sought to remind people that he can actually act, write and direct. And then he goes and spoils it all by making something stupid like [insert any number of films here].

I'm not for a moment suggesting that Stallone should've devoted his career to making gritty, serious dramas, as that would've denied us of some highly entertaining, well-made schlock, but his filmography should be more impressive than it is.

Sorry for the ramble, I haven't slept properly in days. I'm delirious. Stallone wrote and starred in Rocky, which is a masterpiece. That's more than I'll ever achieve.
     

greenman

The latest film does definitely feel like an effort to return somewhat to serious drama but ultimately it is limited by the mid level action/revenge film straitjacket in terms of style, politics and talent(besides himself) involved.

The strangest thing to me would be that having choosen to go the action blockbuster route Sly ended up in so many bad films relative to Arnie who managed to star in several of the best of such films and was for the most part in at least decent films until the market started to dry up in the mid 90's. Maybe the nature of the Rocky/Rambo franchises he was tied to was naturally primed to be shifted in a more jingoistic direction?

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: greenman on September 25, 2019, 05:15:07 PM
The latest film does definitely feel like an effort to return somewhat to serious drama but ultimately it is limited by the mid level action/revenge film straitjacket in terms of style, politics and talent(besides himself) involved.

I've lowered my expectations drastically, so whenever I get around to watching it I'll hopefully be mildly entertained!

Quote from: greenman on September 25, 2019, 05:15:07 PM
The strangest thing to me would be that having choosen to go the action blockbuster route Sly ended up in so many bad films relative to Arnie who managed to star in several of the best of such films and was for the most part in at least decent films until the market started to dry up in the mid 90's. Maybe the nature of the Rocky/Rambo franchises he was tied to was naturally primed to be shifted in a more jingoistic direction?

It looked like Sly was about to embrace the whole post-modern, ironic, satirical '90s action bandwagon with Demolition Man, but he then backed away from it for some reason. He's an objectively better actor that Arnie, he has great comic timing, but his attempts at out and out comedy in the early '90s were woeful.

Arnie could've probably sold Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot, but Sly just looked embarrassed to be there. Arnie was much more adept at sending himself up, possibly because, unlike Stallone, he's always been entirely at ease with being a charismatic popcorn turn. Stallone never quite managed to work out how to be an action hero and a serious auteur at the same time. 

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 25, 2019, 06:14:13 PM
his attempts at out and out comedy in the early '90s were woeful.

I won't have a bad word said about Oscar.  It's aged very well.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Oh, it's a nice enough film, quite charming really, but why did audiences turn against Sly when he tried something different? Arnie got away with starring in silly comedies. Was it because, as greenman says, he was too identified with AMERICA FUCK YEAH politics?

Arnie is a foreign lad, so maybe American audiences were happy to let him do whatever the fuck he wanted as long as it was fun. Sly? KILL THE FOREIGN LADS, SLY, WOOHOO!!

I may be generalising and simplifying wildly here.

The Culture Bunker

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on September 25, 2019, 06:51:03 PM
Oh, it's a nice enough film, quite charming really, but why did audiences turn against Sly when he tried something different? Arnie got away with starring in silly comedies. Was it because, as greenman says, he was too identified with AMERICA FUCK YEAH politics?

Arnie is a foreign lad, so maybe American audiences were happy to let him do whatever the fuck he wanted as long as it was fun. Sly? KILL THE FOREIGN LADS, SLY, WOOHOO!!

I may be generalising and simplifying wildly here.
There was always something silly about Arnie, due to his whole look/thick accent, so comedy was more of a natural fit.