Becoming more right wing as you age

[checkoutgirl]

Best thing to do is get all the people who are infertile and can't have kids and say "You wanna have a baby, Yeah? Yeah? Well get in the back of this van". They'll be so desperate for a baby they'll get in the back of the van. Pack them all in there and then drive it over the side of a cliff. I'd happily be the driver.

Now if that sounds a bit right wing then call me right wing. I don't want my money wasted on IVF when there are people dying of actual diseases. The health service costs a bomb. If you want a baby you pay for it.

[checkoutgirl]

that is cruel and pointless.

Only in a country where there is free healthcare for all sorts of stuff. I doubt most Americans would think it was cruel and pointless. Now there's a right wing country.

[Paul Calf]

At last someone's driven this stupid thread over the edge of a cliff.

[checkoutgirl]

Badly-paid people paying less tax is arguably a left wing opinion.

I know, and it only becomes right wing when the person becomes well paid, and we all have a different idea of what well paid is. I'm on 28k, but minimum wage is 20k. And 10 years ago I was on 31k. Fuck just gimme more money.

[checkoutgirl]

I hope you or your partner never have fertility problems.

Some people would love fertility problems, like a natural, free of charge birth control. Joking aside I agree that the population argument is a red herring. I'd argue that having children is a privilege afforded by a healthy reproductive system and hopefully enough money and time and care to raise the kid. If you're skint or barren then maybe focus your energy on something else. Secondly most countries don't have free IVF when you can't have a baby so expecting it and thinking the idea of not getting it is cruel seems like the weird thinking to me.

Maybe it's different when you grow up with the NHS and expect all types of healthcare for free as an absolute right. Where I live you go to A+E you get a bill, after a 12 hour wait for treatment. You go to the doctor and it's 50 quid before you've even clocked your prescription which you also have to pay for.  IVF? Maybe if you have the right healthcare cover otherwise you can whistle for it.

I'd much rather the GP visit was free than the IVF and I don't see that as cruel at all. Although I freely admit it's probably leaning to the side of right wing which is what the thread is about.

[Paul Calf]

I hope you or your partner never have fertility problems.

I've never wanted to have my own children, but have two fantastic stepchildren.

[Fonz]

IVF should absolutely not be allowed as long as a single orphanage remains open.

Fat people shouldn't  be allowed to eat food as long as there is a single malnourished person somewhere on the planet

[Konki]

This thread is very disappointing.

[Paul Calf]

It's disappointing because I said that your behaviour - while not reprehensible in any way - isn't an object model in socialism?

[Cuellar]

I think it's because I got Benjamin Button the wrong way round. I'm over it though. Don't care.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I generally try to be right on, not right wing. That said, it was suggested recently that my attitude toward the mentally ill might not be all that progressive. To be clear, I know that mental illness must be fucking awful and it's not something I would wish on anyone. I know that funding for mental health care is bloody shameful. I also know that dealing with a mentally ill person can be fucking awful and my sympathy tends to go more to the people who do so. I know it's wrong to tell the mentally ill to snap out of it, but it also seems wrong to tell everyone else to just put up with it.
I know that's not likely to be a popular sentiment in this of all places, but it did arise from experience. Not the most rounded of experiences, probably, but at least it's not some straw man type of thing.

I'm leaning slightly to the right because I work 5 days a week for a shit wage and I want more, I want more because I want more. Not because of some grand scheme or system of fairness. It's just selfishness.

It's getting old and feeble that's the problem. I'd be perfectly content with my shit wage, if I didn't know that sometime in the future I'd be reliant on my pension/savings to survive.

[Konki]

It's disappointing because I said that your behaviour - while not reprehensible in any way - isn't an object model in socialism?

I never considered our infertility in political terms, I had more important things to think about at the time, and now I do I don't consider the provision of fertility treatment to be particularly right wing.

This thread is disappointing because several posters I considered alright have come out with some pretty mad and ugly views. Still, that's the nature of a thread like this I guess.

[Twed]

I've never wanted to have my own children, but have two fantastic stepchildren.

Volunteer them for the cull.

[Paul Calf]

I never considered our infertility in political terms, I had more important things to think about at the time, and now I do I don't consider the provision of fertility treatment to be particularly right wing.

This thread is disappointing because several posters I considered alright have come out with some pretty mad and ugly views. Still, that's the nature of a thread like this I guess.

I really am sorry if I offended you; it certainly wasn't my intent. I think it's an interesting example of how we make compromises and choose paths that aren't necessarily in accordance with what we believe to be best for everyone. Everyone does it: I certainly have.

Anyway, sorry.

[bgmnts]

What's mad and ugly about hating humanity?

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Your face.

[kngen]

As an adoptive parent, while I can see the cold logic of saying 'Don't get IVF; adopt instead', it's really not that simple. Quite aside from raising the child in question, adoption comes with a lifelong commitment to numerous tricky negotiations and complexities, not least helping your child navigate their feelings of abandonment in regards to their birth parents (while you yourself deal with the very real fear that, at some point, they might reject you and seek out their birth parents instead when things get a bit teenage and angsty). It's incredibly rare that adoptive parents are presented with a new-born child; and, even if they are lucky enough to adopt - say - an 12 to 18-month old who will only ever remember them as their mum and dad, there is the very real possibility of numerous instances of trauma that can colour the rest of that child's life, even if they remember it or not. Happy families tend not to give up their kids for adoption, after all.

In regards to the OP, I'll never understand people who say 'You'll understand when you're a parent' after being challenged for spouting some reactionary pile of shite. Having a family has made me more left-wing than at any time in my idealistic youth - the fear of my child being abducted by a recidivist gang of swarthy ne'erdowells thumbing their noses at liberal bleeding hearts and their open-door policies for borders and prisons is somewhat dwarfed by fears that the apple of my eye will - by the time she's ready to enter into adult life - have already been failed by a hugely under-funded education system, will possibly be swimming in eye-watering amounts of student debt, and quite possibly be literally swimming around in some kind of perennial toxic sludge if her state-issued coracle (grudgingly doled out following the catastrophic floods of 2035) starts to fall apart.

[manticore]

What's mad and ugly about hating humanity?

So you hate yourself?

--------------------------------

Most people who become more conservative as they get older don't do it because of senility, they do it because they have to justify to themselves the compromises and accomodations they've had to make to survive or 'get on' in life arranged as a pyramid. It's hard to justify beliefs that are in contradiction to your actions in the world. And people are just worn down and tired out by the lives they're forced to live and it can be overwhelmingly tempting to look for easy answers and think reflexively rather than refectively.

'The system grinds you down' as people used to say more simply.

Younger people's leftism can be pretty superficial anyway, it often reflects the received ideas  of their peer group and a short-term need to rebel and long range readiness to conform that's been encouraged by popular culture since the idea of the 'teenager' was promoted in the 1950s to target new consumer markets.

[Twed]

You have to take lefty misanthropy with a grain of salt. I think it's implied that "hating humanity" from a left-wing perspective means hating the system that crushes innocent people under its boot and the people who maintain the status quo. That means you have to care about the innocent people, else there would be no reason to hate.

Conversely, it's very easy to claim to love the world when you lead a selfish life and everything is going your way. Ignore that shit, because it involves passively hating people who need help.

I think that's important. I think a lot of bright and breezy people have been getting away with minimising left leaning politics with their "just be nice"isms, and I think that's the attitude that the media and elites are most likely to latch on to for their positive PR. There's no such thing as a universal niceness. Painted smiles always have a victim because they invalidate grievances.

[Ferris]

This thread is disappointing because several posters I considered alright have come out with some pretty mad and ugly views. Still, that's the nature of a thread like this I guess.

Yes.

[Sin Agog]

You have to take lefty misanthropy with a grain of salt. I think it's implied that "hating humanity" from a left-wing perspective means hating the system that crushes innocent people under its boot and the people who maintain the status quo. That means you have to care about the innocent people, else there would be no reason to hate.

Conversely, it's very easy to claim to love the world when you lead a selfish life and everything is going your way. Ignore that shit, because it involves passively hating people who need help.

I think that's important. I think a lot of bright and breezy people have been getting away with minimising left leaning politics with their "just be nice"isms, and I think that's the attitude that the media and elites are most likely to latch on to for their positive PR. There's no such thing as a universal niceness. Painted smiles always have a victim because they invalidate grievances.

People often lament how cynical and misanthropic some people are, but in my experience those types usually start out as romantics full of hopes and ideals that are just bound to get spurned at some point.  So they, by degrees, become cynics. And maybe that quixotic spark of hope is still in them, but they've learnt that in order to not be whittled away altogether by a profligate society, they have to remain craggy, rigid mofos; but living all gnarled with untrusting suspicion for so many years can kill the last of that youthful optimism. The alternative is niceness, and niceness is a lukewarm climate where all manner of diseases can grow.

[Konki]

I really am sorry if I offended you; it certainly wasn't my intent. I think it's an interesting example of how we make compromises and choose paths that aren't necessarily in accordance with what we believe to be best for everyone. Everyone does it: I certainly have.

Anyway, sorry.

Thanks for the apology although there is really no need, I wouldn't say I was offended it's just obviously a very personal issue for me and I have come across similar views in the past.

There is a certain stigma associated with infertility and those experiencing it can suffer a whole raft of negative feelings including shame and self-loathing. We didn't tell friends and family what we were going through for a long time. Anyway your comments and others have allowed me to externalise a few things that I hadn't before so that's a positive right there.

With regards what's best for everyone I think it's impossible for anybody to be totally selfless and it's perfectly natural to put one's self and loved ones before the herd on occasion. It's getting the balance right that's key. I'll probably never get the balance right but I'll keep trying.

[Icehaven]

Possibly more as a result of living in an increasingly packed city where rents are among the fastest rising in the country thanks to being the second choice if you can't afford London, but I do often think more should be done to encourage people to spread out across the country a bit more. It only really becomes a right wing opinion if you suggest it should only or even mainly apply to immigrants and those in social housing but while I don't think that it's still a bit social engineering-ish. Although it's not so much about forcing people to live in certain places but more about making less popular areas more attractive, having more work opportunities, affordable housing and most crucially of all decent transport links. But all that would take huge amounts of long term investment and we don't seem to think long term anymore (if we ever did).The stupid  thing is at least half the population of most overcrowded areas don't even want to be there but due to work/family commitments etc. we're stuck.

[Schnapple]

I also think my definition of liberal values might clash with some of my fellow left winger around issues of free speech and how we treat and view our political enemies. For me, being liberal is about having empathy for everyone, not just the obvious victims and the vulnerable, but also every living person whose a victim of environment and circumstance. There's a conflict within me over how we tackle hate speech, etc, and I think as the years go by on this site, I find myself disagreeing with the vehement anger some people have towards people who fuck up, or are, on a superficial level, irredeemably shit. To me, that empathy is a core pillar of left wing philosophy, though, so I don't actually believe it's an example of me moving right, just a different interpretation of how he tackle the same issues.

I feel exactly like this, too. As only a very occasional contributor but a long-time reader here at CaB, since my teens in fact, it's interesting to think about how this forum really probably played a massive part in shaping my left-wing politics, But how I feel that, like almost everywhere else, the politics of the forum, as well as the tone have altered. I certainly haven't shifted anywhere closer to the right in my core beliefs or voting patterns, but I feel like that especially in regards to a certain kind of righteousness and over-zealousness in the otherwise well-meaning realm of identity politics, the understandably exhausting mire of intersectionality, even in the mainstream, and the complete loss of the media's ability to handle any narrative that isn't completely binary, the often very-online left has probably shifted away from me. I also was only ever left-wing as it made sense to me, in order to ensure people who technically didn't ask for any of this don't have a completely shit, useless time; unlike a lot of leftists I encounter, I didn't feel proud of being somewhat progressive. Obviously, being in my thirties, I was able to see the world with a lot more glibness when maturing, again, in no small part thanks to this forum.

So if I'm not left, and I'm not right, where does that leave me? Oh no.

Sincerely, I constantly reassess my beliefs, often to the point of driving myself completely mental, and I think as long as you act in good-faith and realise the world doesn't, and shouldn't revolve around you, you're alright to live with the occasional Daily Mail approved bloodlust fantasy.

[Theremin]

Possibly more as a result of living in an increasingly packed city where rents are among the fastest rising in the country thanks to being the second choice if you can't afford London

Hello, fellow Bristolian!

I agree, the urban sprawl is becoming Amsterdam levels of crazy. And sadly, shite infrastructure is often as much of a problem as lack of housing.

I would love to be able to live further out from the City Centre, but what are options? Buses are terminally shit and under-run, trains are eye-watering expensive and running a car would wipe out my budget.

[Sin Agog]

I feel exactly like this, too. As only a very occasional contributor but a long-time reader here at CaB, since my teens in fact, it's interesting to think about how this forum really probably played a massive part in shaping my left-wing politics, But how I feel that, like almost everywhere else, the politics of the forum, as well as the tone have altered. I certainly haven't shifted anywhere closer to the right in my core beliefs or voting patterns, but I feel like that especially in regards to a certain kind of righteousness and over-zealousness in the otherwise well-meaning realm of identity politics, the understandably exhausting mire of intersectionality, even in the mainstream, and the complete loss of the media's ability to handle any narrative that isn't completely binary, the often very-online left has probably shifted away from me. I also was only ever left-wing as it made sense to me, in order to ensure people who technically didn't ask for any of this don't have a completely shit, useless time; unlike a lot of leftists I encounter, I didn't feel proud of being somewhat progressive. Obviously, being in my thirties, I was able to see the world with a lot more glibness when maturing, again, in no small part thanks to this forum.

So if I'm not left, and I'm not right, where does that leave me? Oh no.

Sincerely, I constantly reassess my beliefs, often to the point of driving myself completely mental, and I think as long as you act in good-faith and realise the world doesn't, and shouldn't revolve around you, you're alright to live with the occasional Daily Mail approved bloodlust fantasy.

I was thinking today...y'know how, like, Judas...Judas Iscariot (Judas OF Iscariot?  No, just Judas Iscariot...of Judea?).  Well, Judas, one of the most villified villains in all of villainry, even Judas took his own life after he realised the full weight of what he did.  Maybe his betrayal was a natural, inevitable product of coming up in a den of iniquity, and the guilt and self-reproach that led to his suicide was braver than anything the other mimsy disciples ever did?  So it's probably a good exercise fleshing-out everyone we instinctively want to whittle down to just an offensive offender, rather than just encasing them in a giant block of ice in the fourth circle of hell for all eternity. Because of Judas.

[Twed]

People often lament how cynical and misanthropic some people are, but in my experience those types usually start out as romantics full of hopes and ideals that are just bound to get spurned at some point.  So they, by degrees, become cynics. And maybe that quixotic spark of hope is still in them, but they've learnt that in order to not be whittled away altogether by a profligate society, they have to remain craggy, rigid mofos; but living all gnarled with untrusting suspicion for so many years can kill the last of that youthful optimism. The alternative is niceness, and niceness is a lukewarm climate where all manner of diseases can grow.

This is good.

[phantom_power]

You have to take lefty misanthropy with a grain of salt. I think it's implied that "hating humanity" from a left-wing perspective means hating the system that crushes innocent people under its boot and the people who maintain the status quo. That means you have to care about the innocent people, else there would be no reason to hate.

Conversely, it's very easy to claim to love the world when you lead a selfish life and everything is going your way. Ignore that shit, because it involves passively hating people who need help.

I think that's important. I think a lot of bright and breezy people have been getting away with minimising left leaning politics with their "just be nice"isms, and I think that's the attitude that the media and elites are most likely to latch on to for their positive PR. There's no such thing as a universal niceness. Painted smiles always have a victim because they invalidate grievances.

That reminds me of millionaires on Twitter sniping about "kinder, gentler politics" when a Labour MP/supporter gets angry about injustice or inequality and calls a cunt a cunt

[phantom_power]

Yeah that too probably, and it's the bubble again isn't it? Online you can surround yourself only with exactly what you want when you want it, say what you like to who you like, and you're constantly being told every moment of your life and every thought you have really, truly matters. It was inevitable that such a hugely appealing and gratifying mindset would very quickly become how people actually think they should be able to live in the world. No wonder everyone's so pissed off.

I find it a bit the other way round. On the Internet the world seems full of rude people and arseholes but day to day the people I meet are generally alright

[Twed]

That reminds me of millionaires on Twitter sniping about "kinder, gentler politics" when a Labour MP/supporter gets angry about injustice or inequality and calls a cunt a cunt

That's exactly the "respectable" narrative you see from centre-right types, and I don't think it's an organic thing. It's an established trick at this point.