Becoming more right wing as you age

[Cloud]

This was an obvious reference to people who do "Meat-Free Monday", and I just thought that it was a bit of a dick move to attack and belittle people who are at least trying to cut down on their meat consumption. What is that supposed to achieve, apart from making vegetarians, vegans, and other people who are more meat-free than thou feel smug? It's not a contest, and treating people like they're the losers isn't going to motivate them- in fact it might be counterproductive and get them reaching for the steak as a "fuck you".

Totally agree with this, and see that "oh so you don't murder on certain days" argument on Reddit a lot (basically any cute animal post gets brigaded in the comments and turns into a veganism debate)

I do think that in many cases it makes the hardened omnivores double down on the steak in much the same way extreme attitudes on "the left" in general can push people to "the right".

Unfortunately trying to bring this up usually leads to the "oh so you're saying it's MY fault that people eat meat / vote for Trump / etc you evil centrist" conclusion jumping and the call to be welcoming and encouraging towards others gets promptly stomped on.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

Although, being honest, you know I work in a restaurant, well... when I see those lovely ladies in their special frocks and perfume and those smiling civilised men suited and booted, tucking into a corpse and grinning, it really does creep me out.  When I open the fridges and see the blood.  The chest freezer that looks like a prop from American Psycho.  The little legs and hands and faces in the bin.  Sometimes whole bodies, lives, wasted.  I know for a certainty, if I wasn't so desperate, I wouldn't take the money, not for any money.  It's disgusting once you see it and I wish I didn't every day.

For me, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with scoring one against the meat-eaters, maybe it does for others, for me it's just stomach-turning and very dark.

And I hate the smell of it on my clothes and in my hair.

That's why I've always harboured the strongly-held view that as sentient creatures we must be more than just flesh and bone. If we weren't, we'd find nothing at all weird or macabre about tucking into another animals - it's no more or less than what we've evolved to do over thousands of generations. That fact that we/some of us find it weird and macabre seems to suggest we're in this world but in some sense still very much not of it.

[Blue Jam]

On the childfree stuff - and I'm strongly on the side of "you should not be made to feel bad not to have kids, it's a valid life", I think those who are nasty incel-like people about it are probably just that way because of their own insecurities, with a bit of misanthropy thrown in.

This is one thing that almost put me off Reddit- the way it seems mostly comprised of little tribes who congregate to "other" and sneer at everyone outside their little group, often by making insulting assumptions about them and giving them insulting labels. Incels sneering at "Chads" and "Staceys", vegans sneering at "carnists" (gawd I hate that term), self-proclaimed "introverts" deciding everyone else is a dumb "extrovert" so they can sneer at them, people deciding their Myers-Briggs type is better than the other 15 other types, and absolutely anyone using the term "normies" to describe anyone they don't like and feel is inferior. Don't get me started on the Reddit atheists... There's also a weird obsession with intelligence (as defined by the flawed concept of IQ) and an ongoing competition over which little tribe is the cleverest.

I found it a bit fascinating for a while but it's like reading the comments under news articles- after a while it's just depressing and you have to pull yourself away... so it's just cute dog pictures for me now.

[Neville Chamberlain]

...vegans sneering at "carnists" (gawd I hate that term)...

Why? It's not insulting at all, just a newly coined word to describe a concept for which there was no word before.

We don't see meat eating as we do vegetarianism – as a choice, based on a set of assumptions about animals, our world, and ourselves. Rather, we see it as a given, the "natural" thing to do, the way things have always been and the way things will always be. We eat animals without thinking about what we are doing and why, because the belief system that underlies this behavior is invisible. This invisible belief system is what I call carnism.

Mind you, I can see how meat-eaters might be uncomfortable with having that explicitly highlighted with a special word.

[Cloud]

This is one thing that almost put me off Reddit- the way it seems mostly comprised of little tribes who congregate to "other" and sneer at everyone outside their little group, often by making insulting assumptions about them and giving them insulting labels. Incels sneering at "Chads" and "Staceys", vegans sneering at "carnists" (gawd I hate that term), self-proclaimed "introverts" deciding everyone else is a dumb "extrovert" so they can sneer at them, people deciding their Myers-Briggs type is better than the other 15 other types, and absolutely anyone using the term "normies" to describe anyone they don't like and feel is inferior. Don't get me started on the Reddit atheists... There's also a weird obsession with intelligence (as defined by the flawed concept of IQ) and an ongoing competition over which little tribe is the cleverest.

I found it a bit fascinating for a while but it's like reading the comments under news articles- after a while it's just depressing and you have to pull yourself away... so it's just cute dog pictures for me now.

Yeah I used to love Reddit as it seemed very level-headed when I joined (or I was just lucky with what subs I chose) but it does seem a bit toxic now.  You also get some subs who auto ban anyone who posts in certain other subs (regardless of intent) which is the classic tribal stuff.

I can't deal with /r/worldnews any more - everything in the comments is about how the world is literally ending

Like Twitter I suppose, it can be good but you have to put some time into curating who and what you follow and trying to train yourself not to read "the comments" when you have a fair idea of how they're going to go...

Must admit, I've used the term 'normie', outside of reddit.  I tend to use it in a very lighthearted manner among bronies to mean normal people who don't understand (and sometimes hate) our magical world... maybe it would be less problematic to start using the word 'muggles' instead :)

[Neville Chamberlain]

I know it's 2019, but what the heck is reddit?!?!?

[Buelligan]

It's like twitter only they put an r/ at the beginning.

[Cloud]

I know it's 2019, but what the heck is reddit?!?!?

Like a giant discussion board where people post either text entries, images or links and people discuss them.  There are an absolute fuckton of "subreddits" like /r/pics, /r/funny, /r/catpictures, /r/worldnews, /r/showerthoughts, /r/vegan etc

/r/chrismorris exists too

https://www.reddit.com/

The /r/.... is the URL for the other various boards (subreddits)

It can be very interesting if you find some good subs.  There are also shit ones like /r/the_donald

[Funcrusher]

So it's okay to object to being called a 'carnist' but not okay to object to being called 'cis'?

<Puts on hard hat>

[Blue Jam]

There's nothing insulting about "cis" and "trans":

I do think that in many cases it makes the hardened omnivores double down on the steak in much the same way extreme attitudes on "the left" in general can push people to "the right".

That's it right there Nev- "omnivore". No need for "carnist", with its implication that all non-vegans spend their days washing down slabs of bleeding-rare veal with pints of kitten blood (plus there's the way it sounds conveniently close to "carnal", but maybe that's just me). Most of us also eat fruit and veg- and some of us (including me) even eat tofu and drink almond milk.... and again, I think calling someone who does Meat-Free Monday a "carnist" would be a dick move.

Totally agree with this, and see that "oh so you don't murder on certain days" argument on Reddit a lot (basically any cute animal post gets brigaded in the comments and turns into a veganism debate)

My vegan ex-Facebook friend has a diet which doesn't harm animals, but he also happens to work for a company that does real and direct harm to the people who consume its products. He is aware of this and often rants about how evil they are and how he really should get a new job, but he's been saying this for ten years now... meanwhile, I'm an omnivore whose job involves using 3D cell culture to develop in vitro models for drug testing as an alternative to testing those drugs on animals...

We're all bundles of hypocrisy and contradictions and I think behaving as if we're in a Who's The Most Virtuous contest would be pointless and unhelpful.

[Neville Chamberlain]

That's it right there Nev- "omnivore". No need for "carnist", with its implication that all non-vegans spend their days washing down slabs of bleeding-rare veal with pints of kitten blood (plus there's the way it sounds conveniently close to "carnal", but maybe that's just me). Most of us also eat fruit and veg- and some of us (including me) even eat tofu and drink almond milk.... and again, I think calling someone who does Meat-Free Monday a "carnist" would be a dick move.

"Carnism" is a term that refers to more than just what we eat, but instead about humans' generally exploitative and frequently contradictory relationship towards animals, including for their consumption, and how this is normalised through tradition and in everyday culture.

"Omnivore" is just an animal that has a gut that can process plants and meat, which makes me an omnivore, too.

[Blue Jam]

Whatever, someone calling me a "carnist" isn't going to win me over...

[Neville Chamberlain]

We're all bundles of hypocrisy and contradictions and I think behaving as if we're in a Who's The Most Virtuous contest would be pointless and unhelpful.

Oh, I completely agree about this. I guess the difference between some people and other's is the extent to which we're willing to accept those hypocrisies and contradictions within ourselves. I don't see them as inevitable parts of ourselves, inextricably embedded through tradition and culture, but things that can be addressed and changed.

All the best in developing those in vitro models, by the way. Genuinely exciting stuff!

[Icehaven]

I think 'carnist' might be one of those words that might be intended as an insult by those dishing it out, but isn't really going to be taken as one by those on the receiving end. Like 'lesbian' and 'Belieber.'

[Neville Chamberlain]

I think 'carnist' might be one of those words that might be intended as an insult by those dishing it out, but isn't really going to be taken as one by those on the receiving end.

Don't you mean that the other way round...? ;-)

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

Although, being honest, you know I work in a restaurant, well... when I see those lovely ladies in their special frocks and perfume and those smiling civilised men suited and booted, tucking into a corpse and grinning, it really does creep me out.  When I open the fridges and see the blood.  The chest freezer that looks like a prop from American Psycho.  The little legs and hands and faces in the bin.  Sometimes whole bodies, lives, wasted.  I know for a certainty, if I wasn't so desperate, I wouldn't take the money, not for any money.  It's disgusting once you see it and I wish I didn't every day.

For me, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with scoring one against the meat-eaters, maybe it does for others, for me it's just stomach-turning and very dark.

And I hate the smell of it on my clothes and in my hair.

Actual hands? Do you work in a restaurant that serves up human beings as food, like in that film what the Comic Strip lot made ? Or mayhaps monkeymeat ?
Weighing in to this vital topic with a solid gold contribution, 'ere.

[Blue Jam]

Hands and faces. And arses and things.

All the best in developing those in vitro models, by the way. Genuinely exciting stuff!

Cheers! My job involves replicating a particular human tissue in vitro and testing drugs to (hopefully) help find a treatment for a very nasty age-related disease which kills millions of people per year and will only become more of a problem as the population ages. My job also uses a vast amount of electricity, releases some very toxic substances into the environment and generates a frankly obscene amount of plastic waste.

One could argue that it would be better for the planet if we abandoned this wasteful research and just accepted the ageing process and its associated diseases as something natural which we shouldn't try to fight, but that brings us back to the examples of right-wing arguments about ageing populations and wasting resources that were discussed near the beginning of the thread...

If you take all efforts to minimise our impact on the planet and its inhabitants to their logical conclusion you'll end up thinking that it would be best if we all just killed ourselves, or that it would be better to have never been born- and then we're back to those anti-natalist/voluntary human extinction arguments...

...anyway, I'm not a fan of treating these things as a competition. None of us are perfectly virtuous, but as long as people are making some effort I think that's fine, and not to be sneered at.

[dr beat]

Quote from: icehaven on Today at 01:42:20 PM
I think 'carnist' might be one of those words that might be intended as an insult by those dishing it out, but isn't really going to be taken as one by those on the receiving end.

Don't you mean that the other way round...? ;-)

I suppose labels, whatever their intention, can be reclaimed by the label-ees as a defusing or even empowering move. Swings and roundabouts.

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

Hands and faces. And arses and things.

Chas and Dave in 1970 reconsider name of band they were in at the time.
( Second Top Contribution ! )

[Icehaven]

Don't you mean that the other way round...? ;-)

No!

[Neville Chamberlain]

I'm confused now!

[Blue Jam]

I suppose labels, whatever their intention, can be reclaimed by the label-ees as a defusing or even empowering move. Swings and roundabouts.

http://www.PeTA.org

[Icehaven]

I'm confused now!

I mean sometimes words/terms that are intended by the user to be insulting aren't taken as such by the person they're attempting to insult, because they don't think the term/name is necessarily a bad thing to be. A few years ago I had quite short hair for a spell and not having particularly girly dress sense, I occasionally had 'lesbian!!' roared at me from passing cars/dickheads. I'm not gay, but I didn't really care if anyone thought I was* so calling me a lesbian was a bit like calling me a tea drinker or a trapeze artist, I'm not those things either but it's hardly offensive to be called such. Now I'm not being totally disingenuous, I know there was offence intended, but it wasn't taken. Similarly 'carnist', wether intended to be insulting or not (and I appreciate it sometimes isn't meant to be), isn't really as it's largely true. I certainly don't find it insulting.

*Apart from men I fancied, obviously

[Mister Six]

Regarding the commercialisation of animal's bodies, the females of the species generally draw the short straw - especially in the dairy industry.

I dunno, the bulls get slaughtered and eaten...

[Blue Jam]

While you're here Nev, ever used this stuff?

http://www.orgran.com/products/no-egg-egg-replacer/

...and is it any good? We've just got back from a trip to Seville during which many slices of tortilla were eaten and I'd like to make some myself, but I usually avoid eggs and I'd like to make a version which doesn't contain a fuckload of cholesterol.

[Mister Six]

(plus there's the way it sounds conveniently close to "carnal", but maybe that's just me)

That's why I like it. It sounds sexy and maybe a bit dangerous, ie. The exact opposite of me.

[Twed]

While you're here Nev, ever used this stuff?

http://www.orgran.com/products/no-egg-egg-replacer/

...and is it any good? We've just got back from a trip to Seville during which many slices of tortilla were eaten and I'd like to make some myself, but I usually avoid eggs and I'd like to make a version which doesn't contain a fuckload of cholesterol.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/panel-suggests-stop-warning-about-cholesterol-in-food-201502127713

Just as eating fat doesn't make it clog up in your arteries, cholesterol that you eat doesn't go and live in your blood.

[phantom_power]

I think 'carnist' might be one of those words that might be intended as an insult by those dishing it out, but isn't really going to be taken as one by those on the receiving end. Like 'lesbian' and 'Belieber.'

I think the only problem I would have with someone calling me a carnist would be keeping a straight face

[Blue Jam]

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/panel-suggests-stop-warning-about-cholesterol-in-food-201502127713

Just as eating fat doesn't make it clog up in your arteries, cholesterol that you eat doesn't go and live in your blood.

Fair enough, but I still find eggs a bit disgusting and would like to try something else. Also got a vegan friend who was asking about "veganising" a recipe for Jaffa cakes.

[Buelligan]

Actual hands? Do you work in a restaurant that serves up human beings as food, like in that film what the Comic Strip lot made ? Or mayhaps monkeymeat ?
Weighing in to this vital topic with a solid gold contribution, 'ere.

The little things at the ends of their limbs that they use to build their homes or nurture their young or move shit with, you can call them claws or hooves if it makes you feel better.