Becoming more right wing as you age

[Blue Jam]

Give him some credit. He might have done something profound like inventing Cilit Bang.

That is NOT Barry Scott.

[Mister Six]

I'm not clear on what you are saying here?

The string em' up, hangin is too good for them is very much a right-wing trope for the peados. I don't believe you have identified the right tribe in the first place.

Not speaking to Cloud's other points here because I've lost the thread of conversation, but this is pretty universal. I've certainly encountered left-wing identity politics types who are of the "they're all monsters" philosophy, and were quick to turn on me when I suggested that it's best to differentiate between "paedophiles" and "child molesters", and that the former should be afforded counselling and not stigmatised, if we want to minimise risk to children. But I suspect they might have had nasty experiences of their own, so it's hard to hold a grudge.

[TrenterPercenter]

Not speaking to Cloud's other points here because I've lost the thread of conversation, but this is pretty universal. I've certainly encountered left-wing identity politics types who are of the "they're all monsters" philosophy, and were quick to turn on me when I suggested that it's best to differentiate between "paedophiles" and "child molesters", and that the former should be afforded counselling and not stigmatised, if we want to minimise risk to children. But I suspect they might have had nasty experiences of their own, so it's hard to hold a grudge.

Ok but the question is what is "left-wing" about them?  Please stop saying identity politics because you are missing the point "identity politics" in the modern ago would be your New Labour-American Democrats neither of which are left-wing.

I don't know how to explain this any clearer than I have already - left-wing economics evolves a culture that is collective and based on equality.  That is because of what Marx termed the super structure that creates the environment in which this reacts.  If the super structure is right-wing capitalism the identity politics created from this are not left-wing.  They are right-wing "versions" of them i.e. Contradictory bollocks.

This is more right-wing propaganda I.e.  It isn't the economics it is the bleedin lefty gay feminists.

It is such an obvious distraction but one that people seem to enjoy having their outrage buttons tickled by.

[Ferris]

So, those egg council creeps got to you too eh?

No it's not like that - you got it all wrong!

[Blue Jam]

O...look at people like Sargon a twat from nowhere can make a name and living for himself appealing to the egos of sexually frustrated white menchilds and channelling it into some hatred of lefties.  I am absolutely with Freud on this one it is massively about sex and women, and the fact that it is should tell you that "woman" as a property, that is proposed to be slipping the hand of these men, tells you we do not have anywhere near equality.

This reminds me: Mr Jam and I actually encountered two Alt-right types in the wild last week. We overheard one saying to his mate "There's this YouTuber I like, Sargon of Akkad..." and from then on they ticked all the boxes, from laughing about non-binary gender identity to accusing universities of "brainwashing" their students (while sat across from two academics) to quoting Jordan Peterson (or "JP" as they fondly referred to him). It's amazing that Alt-right types have the nerve to call left-wing people "NPCs" while they all seem to reel off a list of standard Alt-right opinions, the lack of self-awareness is astonishing. Also while I don't want to sneer at anyone's appearance these two guys fitted the stereotype to a tee, right down to their t-shirts referencing video games or anime or Rick and Morty or something.

It was like watching a slow car crash and entertaining in a way, but also scary to think these people are actually out there, thinking their hateful thoughts. They were probably looking over at us and thinking "Look at Stacey and Chad over there, she's a 4 at best, I bet he's paying the bill, total hypergamy". Never mind becoming more right wing as you get older, these two guys were young, and it was actually quite sad to see.

The best bit? When they started praising Trump and his plans for the wall, while sat in a Tex-Mex restaurant...

[Mister Six]

Ok but the question is what is "left-wing" about them?  Please stop saying identity politics because you are missing the point "identity politics" in the modern ago would be your New Labour-American Democrats neither of which are left-wing.

Well some of them said they were socialists, some Communists, and there were a couple of tankies too. Cross-pollination between them and the identity politics lot is a very real thing online.

Also, as pointed out above: there are left-wing (progressive) social politics as well as left-wing economic politics. There have been plenty of branches of communism that have struggled to get along with stuff like gay rights, so unless you want to be revisionist about their behaviour or redefine them as not actual left wingers according to your own personal beliefs or something similar, you might want to recognise this.

[TrenterPercenter]

Well some of them said they were socialists, some Communists, and there were a couple of tankies too. Cross-pollination between them and the identity politics lot is a very real thing online.

Also, as pointed out above: there are left-wing (progressive) social politics as well as left-wing economic politics. There have been plenty of branches of communism that have struggled to get along with stuff like gay rights, so unless you want to be revisionist about their behaviour or redefine them as not actual left wingers according to your own personal beliefs or something similar, you might want to recognise this.

Sorry we are getting crossed wires again.

Some were socialists........fine (sort of).........like some Christians don't go to church and don't actually love thy neighbour.

Some were communists......bit harder to believe.....what real communists? People that believe in a stateless society? but who would string up the child molesters?

Also what "branch" of communism struggles to get along with gay rights?

By the way I haven't been living in cave (sorry Buells) for the last 15 years I do understand that people on the internet can say and do stupid things.  There isn't anything wrong with identity politics or rather you could say there isn't anything wrong with standing up against people that wish to oppress, harm and subjugate people or protect societal constructs that allow people to do this.....

...but we are not really talking about that, we are talking are we, because you are not against that are you?

But anyway before you start concluding that I am revising behaviours to my own personal beliefs (oooh errr missus Hegel alert), perhaps just explain what it is about socialism that would be informing people that they should be intolerant to child molesters, and persuades them to try and get innocent people into trouble for questioning their views.


EDIT:  Also just for fun could you also explain what is was about the people that remained in CPGB after the 1956 USSR invasion of Hungary that makes them so hostile to child molesters and keen on identity politics, otherkins etc..

[Mister Six]

Some were socialists........fine (sort of).........like some Christians don't go to church and don't actually love thy neighbour.

Yes, this is the point that Cloud and I were making.

Some were communists......bit harder to believe.....what real communists? People that believe in a stateless society? but who would string up the child molesters?

Mobs, I assume. Individuals. I didn't ask them. They identified as Communists and I wasn't going to fire questions about Das Kapital at them for proof on the off-chance I'd end up having to justify an anecdote to someone about two years later.

Also what "branch" of communism struggles to get along with gay rights?

Well Mao wasn't exactly a great bunch of lads to the gays, and the state under Stalin could be an uncomfortable place for gay people too. Modern China - if you choose to view it as a communist state, which I wouldn't really - finally took homosexuality off the mental health roster somewhere in the 2000s but is getting very repressive these days. A glance through this Wikipedia page suggests that fair treatment for gay people under communism has been something of a mixed bag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_under_communism

There isn't anything wrong with identity politics or rather you could say there isn't anything wrong with standing up against people that wish to oppress, harm and subjugate people or protect societal constructs that allow people to do this.....

...but we are not really talking about that, we are talking are we, because you are not against that are you?

I'm not sure what you think it is that I'm against, and I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post because it looks like you're basically arguing with an imaginary version of me, and frankly one of me is more than enough.

[Cloud]

I'm not sure what you think it is that I'm against, and I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post because it looks like you're basically arguing with an imaginary version of me, and frankly one of me is more than enough.

They're still trying to argue with me, even though I've conceded and fucked off, or tried to.

Look, trenter et al, I apologise for questioning someone who was making slightly iffy, potentially libellous claims that an individual fucks 11 year olds (I don't like accusations like that, maybe they're right about this person maybe they're wrong but that's for authorities not vigilantes IMHO but whatever), mentioning purple hair which is being latched onto over and over like a fucking stuck record (I was in a bad mood about SJW stereotypes okay?), pinning callout culture on a particular "side" (even though it basically stems from #MeToo which I usually see associated with "the left" but yes of course on the specific pedo-suspect subject the right wing Daily Hate types love a good witch hunt as well), and misusing "left" and "right" in the way everybody else does that can be disingenuously 'mistaken' for referring to economic policies.

Better?  Or are we still going to do several paragraphs of "but why do purple haired people with reasonable views of child molesters want the redistribution of wealth and ownership of the means of production" over and over?

[TrenterPercenter]

Awww not if you don't want to hun.

(I was in a bad mood about SJW stereotypes okay?)

Fair play, and I mean that genuinely for admitting that.  I'm not having a go at you and I think it sounds like you are probably right to be annoyed.  I'm trying to draw attention to the subtle way in which ire is directed towards this stereotype of the left, it's a thing, it's a business.

It is same technique that has been employed in the recent anti-semitism smears, in that what is actually just a phenomena of people i.e. get enough of them in a room and invariably someone is going have a shitty opinion and be mad enough to voice it or the way black people are stereotyped by the drip drip drip of highlighting black crime as being more common.  It is a clear attempt to try and attach stigma to something I'm just drawing attention to it.

I mean ffs right-wing ideology and economics literally calls for hierarchies of classes to exist, welcomes racism, bigotry but we are reminded that it is the left.......you know the ones that fought and died over centuries for equality that need be constantly reminded that they are the ones that are the real bigots.  It's mad that is all - i'm not having a go at you.

[TrenterPercenter]

Yes, this is the point that Cloud and I were making.

Nope.

Mobs, I assume. Individuals. I didn't ask them. They identified as Communists and I wasn't going to fire questions about Das Kapital at them for proof on the off-chance I'd end up having to justify an anecdote to someone about two years later.

Right

Well Mao

Ah.

the state under Stalin

Oh.

Modern China - if you choose to view it as a communist state, which I wouldn't really

Hmm.

A glance through this Wikipedia page suggests that fair treatment for gay people under communism has been something of a mixed bag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_under_communism

And the wikipedia page for "Non-communist" countries histories on homosexuality.....

I'm not sure what you think it is that I'm against

I don't think you are against anything, i just don't think you know what Communism  as proposed by Marx is, why it obviously isn't what Stalin or Mao put into effect and  what the vast majority of contemporary socialists and socialist democrats today see "left politics" representing (or what a tankie is).

I assure you I have no interest in pursuing any further conversation either as someone talking about Stalin and Mao being communists without even the slightest critique of that thought isn't exactly new or compelling.

[chveik]

[Brundle-Fly]

,edit  Naah

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I haven't read this thread, but I've recently decided that getting annoyed at OAP's grumpily refusing to murmur even the slightest note of thanks when you politely hold a shop door open for them isn't a sign that I'm becoming more intolerant, it's a sign that they're all a bunch of sour-faced Brexit cunts who can't get in grave quick enough.

[DistressedArea]

Can confirm that this definitely happens to cheese.

[Autopsy Turvey]

This reminds me: Mr Jam and I actually encountered two Alt-right types in the wild last week. We overheard one saying to his mate "There's this YouTuber I like, Sargon of Akkad..." and from then on they ticked all the boxes, from laughing about non-binary gender identity to accusing universities of "brainwashing" their students (while sat across from two academics) to quoting Jordan Peterson (or "JP" as they fondly referred to him). It's amazing that Alt-right types have the nerve to call left-wing people "NPCs" while they all seem to reel off a list of standard Alt-right opinions, the lack of self-awareness is astonishing.

They laughed at something you don't find funny, they noticed that academia is overwhelmingly left-leaning, and they quoted someone you don't like.

scary to think these people are actually out there, thinking their hateful thoughts.

Scary to think these people are allowed freedom, and haven't been woken up in the small hours to be transported to some sort of work colony for people who think the wrong things.

[Icehaven]

Neil Hannon considers rewrite for the fans.

[Blue Jam]

They laughed at something you don't find funny, they noticed that academia is overwhelmingly left-leaning, and they quoted someone you don't like.

Scary to think these people are allowed freedom, and haven't been woken up in the small hours to be transported to some sort of work colony for people who think the wrong things.

Hello, thepuffpastryhangman!

[Blue Jam]

Neil Hannon considers rewrite for @glinner

FTFY

[TrenterPercenter]

They laughed at something you don't find funny, they noticed that academia is overwhelmingly left-leaning, and they quoted someone you don't like.

Yeah.  You commented about it.  Have a biscuit.

Scary to think these people are allowed freedom, and haven't been woken up in the small hours to be transported to some sort of work colony for people who think the wrong things.

Exactly, these days you say your English you'll be arrested and thrown in jail.

[Autopsy Turvey]

Exactly, these days you say your English you'll be arrested and thrown in jail.

Haha, but no no, it's not "scary to think that these people are actually out there". It may be scary to think that there actually are proper white supremacist neo-Nazis out there with stockpiles of weapons and copies of Mein Kampf with bits underlined and 'Fuck yes!' written in the margin. There aren't, and will never be, many of them, but who knows what they'll do if they're not prescribed the right medication. However, a couple of spods in Rick & Morty shirts who think there are two genders and political correctness has gone too far, no, that's not so scary. But if we shut them down at this stage and brand them as terrifying hateful alt-right trolls with shit, stupid, hateful opinions, will they be more likely to contemplate progressive rebuttals or harden their stance against the people who hate them?

[TrenterPercenter]

Haha, but no no, it's not "scary to think that these people are actually out there". It may be scary to think that there actually are proper white supremacist neo-Nazis out there with stockpiles of weapons and copies of Mein Kampf with bits underlined and 'Fuck yes!' written in the margin. There aren't, and will never be, many of them, but who knows what they'll do if they're not prescribed the right medication. However, a couple of spods in Rick & Morty shirts who think there are two genders and political correctness has gone too far, no, that's not so scary. But if we shut them down at this stage and brand them as terrifying hateful alt-right trolls with shit, stupid, hateful opinions, will they be more likely to contemplate progressive rebuttals or harden their stance against the people who hate them?

I don't think Blue Jam was being quite so literal or alarmist when she used the colloquial phrase "It's scary to think".

So lets take out terrifying.

Nobody said anything about shutting anyone down.

So we can lose the exaggerated "shut down" as well.

Sorry who is being an alarmist harridan again?  Anyway what have we got left, ah right, people shouldn't kick back or comment on people expressing hateful, shit or stupid opinions?

Is that what you are suggesting?  Try and be clear without exaggerating things to the point of banality if you could.  ta.

[Paul Calf]

I've got a Rick And Morty t-shirt

[Blue Jam]

Leave it aaaaaaaaht, Trenter, 'e aint werf it.

[Blue Jam]

I've got a Rick And Morty t-shirt

I'm sure you're aware of the obnoxious section of that show's fandom (I'm also sure you're not part of it).

[Autopsy Turvey]

The conclusion of 'alt-right' based on the given examples of fairly innocuous overheard conversation was a mighty alarmist exaggeration, indeed 'alt-right' is a phrase that effectively shuts down any further need to engage with a whole set of complex problems and ideas. Literal or not, it was a post about how disturbing it is that some people see the world differently, even though there's this phrase you can use that proves them all wrong.

people shouldn't kick back or comment on people expressing hateful, shit or stupid opinions?
Is that what you are suggesting?

No, that's what I'm doing!!

[Paul Calf]

I'm sure you're aware of the obnoxious section of that show's fandom (I'm also sure you're not part of it).

I wasn't really. My stepdaughter (who also isn't part of that section of its fandom) introduced me to it and also bought me the t-shirt as a birthday present. I had no idea of its reputation and I feel a little sullied now.

[Blue Jam]

I had no idea of its reputation and I feel a little sullied now.

I first heard about it via a friend who was a big fan from the start and who started to feel "a little sullied" around the time they did that deal with McDonald's, and he shared a few news stories about Rick and Morty fans threatening minimally-waged fast food staff over tiny packets of sauce. I heard about the alt-right stuff about relating to Rick and doxxing the show's female writers a bit later. Whatever that's all about, I can't understand people taking TV programmes this seriously- and that's coming from someone who's been a member of a comedy discussion forum for almost 20 years...

I've never watched the show but it's more because I don't think I'd get all the Back The The Future references.

[gib]

i watched the Rick & Morty's once and i seem to remember at the end of one episode they go and kick the shit out of a nazi skinhead

here you go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiL4kGE2-oQ

[Blue Jam]

^^^ Yes, I gather the writers aren't too happy about this stuff flying over the heads of certain fans.