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Becoming more right wing as you age

Started by touchingcloth, January 06, 2019, 06:03:34 PM

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shh

All this 'true meaning of a word' stuff - is this thread a footnote to a JL Austin lecture. What you define as left or right wing has become the defining feature of whether you are left or right wing....

imitationleather

Back to the being a part-time carnist thing: My girlfriend just informed me that I haven't eaten any meat since Christmas. I'd not even fucking noticed. That is fucked up.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: shh on January 17, 2019, 10:26:52 PM
All this 'true meaning of a word' stuff - is this thread a footnote to a JL Austin lecture. What you define as left or right wing has become the defining feature of whether you are left or right wing....

That's not as clever as you think it is...

the guys on here who try to write like 19th century philosophers tend to be the dumbest posters on the board

Funcrusher

What on earth is 'cultural Marxism' other than a spurious catchphrase of some right wingers?

pancreas

Quote from: Funcrusher on January 17, 2019, 11:29:42 PM
What on earth is 'cultural Marxism' other than a spurious catchphrase of some right wingers?

The audiences in London theatres jumping on stage and doing the play themselves, I think.

Mister Six

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on January 17, 2019, 01:49:58 PM
btw i am more than happy to dismantle the nonsense you wrote up the page but I thought we'd agreed (on your request) that we weren't going discuss things further.

I think you're mistaking me for Cloud. I also think your grasp of reality is tenuous indeed.

bgmnts

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on January 17, 2019, 10:36:53 PM
the guys on here who try to write like 19th century philosophers tend to be the dumbest posters on the board

I haven't copped to this at all.


chveik



Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Funcrusher on January 17, 2019, 11:29:42 PM
What on earth is 'cultural Marxism' other than a spurious catchphrase of some right wingers?

My understanding is that it was an academic theory as to why the masses don't rise up. Just enough consumer goods to keep them docile, culture telling them everything is fine, that kind of thing. It's ironic that the alt right correctly identified culture being upstream of politics, yet completely missed the actual meaning of cultural marxism, instead co-opting it to mean the sneaking of marxist ideas into culture.

Autopsy Turvey

Doesn't it have something to do with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_march_through_the_institutions

Defined by Marcuse as "working against the established institutions while working within them, but not simply by 'boring from within', rather by 'doing the job', learning (how to program and read computers, how to teach at all levels of education, how to use the mass media, how to organize production, how to recognize and eschew planned obsolescence, how to design, et cetera), and at the same time preserving one's own consciousness in working with others."

Hard to deny something like this happened in Britain after the 1960s, given how many student Trotskyists there were in Blair's cabinet, including Blair.

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on January 17, 2019, 10:36:53 PM
the guys on here who try to write like 19th century philosophers

What, using a quill keyboard?

Paul Calf



TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mister Six on January 18, 2019, 12:21:55 AM
I think you're mistaking me for Cloud. I also think your grasp of reality is tenuous indeed.

Ah my mistake, sorry I've not really had time to properly read everything of late, but anyway "grasp of reality" oooooeerrr hark at her! : )

Quote from: Mister Six on January 16, 2019, 05:33:49 AM
1- That left-wing is a phrase that can only be applied to the economic left, and not to the social left. The notion that left-right spectrums exist in multiple aspects of society is one you have either rejected or cannot grasp;

Left-wing IS a phrase that can be applied to a wider notion and right-left spectrums do exist in multiple aspects of society.  Why you think that proves your point and not mine and PCs is bizarre, I don't think you have thought this through.  Just to take one familiar measure the Political Compass, you no doubt know that left and right make up horizontal axis whilst authoritarianism makes up the vertical.  It's a quadrant, the vertical axis is exclusive to the horizontal i.e.  the left-right economic measure is independent.......it is exists on "multiple planes" of authoritarianism and is not "dependent" or relational to authoritarianism.

The meme that is being pushed by the likes of Sargon, Peterson etc.. is that authoritarianism is baked in to left-wing economics.  It is a simple question of deduction to calculate that in a biaxial spectrum of left-right that if authoritarian versions exist across either half of the spectrum it isn't exclusive to either side*.

I'm arguing against this proposed exclusive relationship to the left and not that anyone that says they are left-wing or has sympathies, ideologies around the left-wing interests cannot be authoritarians, i'm saying that their left-wing views do not inform their authoritarianism.

*whilst due to it's economic basis (and ideological basis) right-wing views are more likely (though again not exclusive too) to influence people to behave badly towards other individuals and groups

Quote2- That communism means Marxism only, despite an entire century and a half of different schools of thought and practice by scholars and states alike;

No that is silly, I didn't say this and I wouldn't. My view is that communism in essence was around long before Marx gave it a title (personally I see it as much more of a social-human phenomena), for example David Ricardo was making statements like 'labour is entitled to all it produces' whilst Marx was in his infancy.

None of this is relevant however, I think the onus is on you to show the relationship between left-wing economics and what you are terming the "social left" (the right-wing meme is the authoritarian left which is used interchangeably with far-left or SWP) and this terms relationship to the bad behaviour you describe.

Quote3- That criticism of individuals on the left amounts to a criticism of the left as a whole, which in your particular instance - confusingly - means criticism of people you don't even consider to be leftists (yer archetypal purple-haired keyboard warriors) is a criticism of Marxism as a philosophy;

Again you decided to write something that was never said and don't believe.  Fascinating that you will write something you made up and then suggest I am being inconsistent with your made up position.

For clarity.  I do not think that criticisms of people on the left amounts to criticism of the left as a whole, much more the of the opposite in fact, that is, I think, want to criticise people on the left which the intention of criticising the left as a whole.  For example when people use the term "feminist" in a pejorative sense, are they criticising the idea of equality for women or someone that identifies as a feminist? You basically end up with something like the racist trope....you're an alright Muslim/Black person it's the others that are bad.  At the very least it is lazy, and my point is it is being used and pushed for right-wing interests to smear - this is obvious, its not people behaving badly that are feminists, it is feminists by their ideology that behave badly, it is an implication of cause and effect, without any real investigation.  On the other hand a right-wing racist murders a load of people and suddenly it is all about individual differences again.

Quote4- That it's literally impossible for someone who is a Marxist to display any form of prejudiced or problematic behaviour.

Come on now, this is a silly strawman, we are all humans......just explain how Marxism informs prejudice to anyone (other than the bourgeois/ruling classes).  You mention up there about how Marxism has lots of different schools of thoughts, yes it has been instrumental in civil rights, sexual equality, workers rights etc for a reason....(btw having schools of thought doesn't mean the core of its beliefs change).

QuoteUnfortunately, all of the above stands entirely at odds with actual consensus reality. Consequently, your arguments on this thread are not actually directed at me, Cloud or anyone else, but at dancing shadows flickering across the inside of your skull.

Mate. Cringe.



Blue Jam

Quote from: imitationleather on January 17, 2019, 10:30:49 PM
Back to the being a part-time carnist thing: My girlfriend just informed me that I haven't eaten any meat since Christmas. I'd not even fucking noticed. That is fucked up.

I had an accidental vegan shopping basket last week: tofu, almond milk, granola. Fucksake... I was tempted to chuck in some Fridge Raiders or some blue drink so I wouldn't look like a complete fucking hippy.

I have meat-free days without noticing too- today is another one as it happens. I don't eat much red meat anymore and not that much chicken either- now I think about it my diet is pescatarian most days. I stopped drinking cows' milk ages ago after I decided to try nut milk (FNAR) for health reasons and found the texture and taste to be much nicer, and I have never been keen on eggs. I could never give up cheese... but the label "carnist" doesn't feel right to me.

touchingcloth

The left need to learn this map and understand that it demonstrates how their entire political endeavours have become subservient to cabals they don't understand who are using them to promote an agenda of Cultural Marxism.


Twed

What is that agenda? Nobody ever defines it, because it boils down to "wanting people at the lower rungs of society not to be milked so that the rich can have more yachts and houses".

Cloud

As I brought up the Political Compass originally early in the thread, and as usual gave  up on the thought of people using it and reverted to the lazy "left" and "right" myself, it's nice to see others actually taking it seriously.  It's very rare - I'm way too used to hearing "nah mate that political compass site is a load of bollocks" (even though they have a Q&A section that addresses every criticism anyone can come up with)

shh

I suppose the obvious point is words only mean what people want them to (not including France where it's decided for them). It's noticeable that people are arguing more about simply categorising a particular stance than I can recall, which is always circular and self-defeating, like some Borgesian attempt at taxonomising the universe. Maybe if the currently fashionable obsession with identity politics were jettisoned, more right wingers would 'realise' they were actually left wing after all. Maybe not. Old school social democracy died and it's not coming back, and I suppose we're all waiting for what comes next. Enter Mr Corbyn stage left...

Will Self recently

QuoteI'm convinced by Deneen's take down of the contemporary academy, which does indeed seem to be sacrificing the genuine cultivation of the individual on an altar consecrated to identity politics and neoliberalism.

Convinced, because I witness this every day in the university where I work, as academics and students scrupulously avoid non-discriminatory social practices, while engaging with a system purpose-built to divide wealthy winners from destitute losers: "Let's all go for a coffee, so someone on a zero-hours contract can serve us while we discuss the baleful effects of heteronormativity!"

bgmnts

Can someone run that through the Will Self translator?

Cuellar


Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on January 17, 2019, 10:36:53 PM
the guys on here who try to write like 19th century philosophers tend to be the dumbest posters on the board

Twed

Leave Will Self alone, he's a fuckming diamond

he's rarely ever made an accurate prediction about anything

Sin Agog

Funny that a fellow named Will Self is criticising identity politics.

gotta say that i don't disagree with what Self says there, but im holding my tongue about the waffle intended to contextualise it