Author Topic: Becoming more right wing as you age  (Read 14741 times)

Phoenix Lazarus

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2019, 10:34:23 PM »
I've actually got a lot of time for Ken Clarke.

And you are his sentencing judge next week?

touchingcloth

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2019, 10:43:13 PM »
Mom and Dad OPPOSITES occur simultaneously with a baby birth - with a potential for creating opposite burritoes - existing only as opposites & a zero value existence - that cancel to naught as an entity. See www.abovegod.com Santa & God debase women as if non-existing opposites. How boring unto their mothers. Singularity educators are boring bastards unfit to live on Earth, for they create boring students - totally ignorant of Time Cube.

Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2019, 10:47:17 PM »
Conversely, it could also be seen as left wing if objection is motivated by not wanting to increase population, thereby straining an already broken system, in which its always the poorest and most vulnerable suffer.

Yeah that was more or less the intended crux of my original comment, but admittedly I've not really given it loads of thought before now. Also, as mentioned, I haven't been in the position of desperately wanting my own biological child and not being able to, although I never intended to criticise anyone in that position anyway.

I guess it was more just a rumination on the fact that we're (rightly) encouraged to reduce our own damage to the environment, but choosing to create a new human where there wasn't one before, which as far as single actions go is likely to have a considerable impact on the environment, isn't really discussed in the same way. But as TrenterPercenter points out, it's hard to see a way of doing this without getting into horrible dystopian territory.

The stuff about children growing up in care/living with shitty parents is probably also partly about unplanned pregnancies, which is a different but related subject (but I do think that reconsidering the notion that having children is 'just what you do' has a part to play here, although that is changing).

Anyway, I just realised while writing this that I've sort of inadvertently helped bring a child into the world in a roundabout way (suggested hotel vouchers as a wedding present for a colleague last year as they couldn't afford a honeymoon... turns out that night was when their son was conceived), so I'm a hypocrite and I'm going to shut up now.

pancreas

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2019, 10:54:21 PM »
I've actually got a lot of time for Ken Clarke.

Now that he's a vocal dissenter from government policy to the left of Jacob Rees-Mogg, I guess it's easy to think he might be a decent Tory. But bear in mind that as health minister he introduced the internal market into the NHS. Hardly a great legacy. They're all cunts, these people, deep down.

touchingcloth

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2019, 10:58:25 PM »
I do genuinely think that you need to be a cunt to be a card carrying lifelong Tory. Or a card carrying lifelong Labourite.

Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2019, 11:01:08 PM »
I avoid this whole issue by not ageing.

Lisa Jesusandmarychain

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2019, 11:04:28 PM »
To be honest, I just think folk are weird. Half the time I just leave them to their weirdness, and hope they'll leave me to mine.

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2019, 11:04:31 PM »
People who think Ken Clarke is a good Tory forget that behind the easy smile, pro-EU stance, hush puppies and so on remains very much a small c conservative, status quo one nation Tory who let's not forget was bought and paid for by British American Tobacco during his time as chancellor.

The fact he isn't as bad as Rees Mogg is a relief but he fundamentally comes out to bat for the fucking Conservative party and spent 2010-2015 defending austerity for George Osborne.

If you "have a lot of time" for that, then make time in your busy time-having to also go and fuck off.

Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2019, 11:06:02 PM »
One I can agree with. I don’t know if it’s right wing as such, but one of my most provocative and genuine opinions is that things like IVF shouldn’t be allowed. There’s too many of us for the planet as it is, and there are kids who need adopting, so bollocks to anyone desperate to spread their own worthless seed. Also, all of you fuckers should house a rescue dog immediately.

I don't have a problem with the human race continuing to breed per se - at the moment we produce enough food to feed ourselves twice over, yet still people are starving.  Climate change is driven by the West, where the birth rate is declining.

I think the West needs to undergo a massive decrease in what could be superficially be called 'living standards' but really is people expecting everything to be done for them - i.e. entitled, out-of-control consumerism that seems to put the population in a mass psychosis that means we don't even feel a pang of guilt about walking past a homeless person on the way to having a spending spree in TopShop. .  It boggles my mind to see cut up bits of fruit sold in single serving plastic containers in the supermarket, too.

canadagoose

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2019, 11:06:26 PM »
Jim Morrison considers rewrite.

You know, I was thinking of sticking that in my post. You must be a mind-reader.

manticore

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2019, 11:12:54 PM »
I've actually got a lot of time for Ken Clarke.

Despite that he's more vaguely civilised than a lot of Conservatives I always found Ken Clarke one of the most obnoxious of the lot, because his whole manner of speech exudes a 'ha ha none of this is really important is it, it's all a bit of a laugh, it's just a game really, don't you think?' feeling. He's one of the most complacent seeming politicians I've ever seen, it's like all political discussion is a cosy ritual or comfortable chat by the fire in a gentlemen's club to him.

gib

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2019, 11:22:14 PM »
agreed, fuck him

if you want the world population to stop spiralling out of control, hmm tricky one. Allowing girls access to education seems to put them right off firing out sprogs, so they say.

pancreas

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2019, 11:23:41 PM »
My sister left school at 16 and she has two children, QED.

Johnny Yesno

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2019, 12:19:10 AM »
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That's enough about your arse, thank you very much.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2019, 01:14:24 AM »
I've definitely come to see national identity as an important thing. I take offence at professors and commentators encouraging young people to forget their heritage and get on board with some bogus presumption of cultural neutrality. It's fine and in fact desirable to take influences from other cultures, but pretending your engagement with other cultures happens from a context-free position of objective rationalism is absurd. We should notice and take solace in the fact we live in such a creative, liberal, adventurous country, and actively seek to develop its precepts and institutions. I can think of nothing more cancerous than simply insisting where you were born was an accident, and that therefore it has somehow had no impact on your upbringing or present worldview. At the very least we should all be making frequent use of our museums, and understanding at least some of our great writers, artists and scientists who've made living here for many a desirable aim.

FerriswheelBueller

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2019, 02:32:26 AM »
I wish some people would give up on pretending their desire for the deaths of 7.7 billion 'irredemable' human beings was terribly daring or outré. It's not, it's about as MOR and mainstream a worldview as could possibly be in 2019.

Yes. Complaining about an upcoming resource war is an effective way of saying “I don’t like my chances in a resource war”. If I hear someone say it, I size them up and make a note of where they will likely stash their fresh water and ammunition. I also think denying people IVF is a monstrous suggestion.

Re: the thread, I’m just as pleasant and liberal as I ever was though I imagine the mainstream liberal consensus has shifted quite a bit (as a matter of necessity, radical thought has to be more radical than the previous generation), so I imagine I appear more right wing than people on university campuses who drive this kind of liberal consensus.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 02:44:34 AM by FerriswheelBueller »

Johnny Yesno

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2019, 02:42:58 AM »
I've definitely come to see national identity as an important thing. I take offence at professors and commentators encouraging young people to forget their heritage and get on board with some bogus presumption of cultural neutrality. It's fine and in fact desirable to take influences from other cultures, but pretending your engagement with other cultures happens from a context-free position of objective rationalism is absurd. We should notice and take solace in the fact we live in such a creative, liberal, adventurous country, and actively seek to develop its precepts and institutions. I can think of nothing more cancerous than simply insisting where you were born was an accident, and that therefore it has somehow had no impact on your upbringing or present worldview. At the very least we should all be making frequent use of our museums, and understanding at least some of our great writers, artists and scientists who've made living here for many a desirable aim.

No one's going to fall for this. You lack the subtlety of touchingcloth.

Twed

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2019, 03:50:18 AM »
You're all making me feel sad.

Sin Agog

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2019, 04:38:10 AM »
I've actually got a lot of time for Ken Clarke.

Yeah, Civilisation's a good watch.

There's an argument to be made that not keeping abreast of the news is inherently a little conservative, so maybe in that regard, but otherwise I'm more of a crusty dreamer with a minimal carbon footprint than ever.  The world would live at least an extra nine-to-ten years if everyone floundered below the poverty line like me.

Paul Calf

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2019, 06:07:35 AM »
I don’t think there are left-wing reasons to justify IVF whether paid for from the public purse or privately. IVF in itself is a way to help people preserve their genetic line at the emotional, physical and economic cost of children currently waiting for foster or adoptive parents. To pay for this out of public money is to declare a preference for individualistic reproduction over the needs of those who suffer it greatest. To allow people to pay privately carries all the baggage usually associated with private medicine but in addition it puts the perpetuation of genetic material more firmly in the hands of the wealthy.

Argue as much as you like for IVF but constantly increasing birth rate mainly benefits the constantly resource-hungry expansion of f consumer capitalism and can’t realky be justified from a collectivist point of view.

Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2019, 07:42:01 AM »
I have neither the time nor will to get into a discussion over this (and Trenter has already covered a lot of these population/resource arguments up thread) but I have to say this in particular is utter horseshit which assumes a binary choice that simply does not exist:

IVF in itself is a way to help people preserve their genetic line at the emotional, physical and economic cost of children currently waiting for foster or adoptive parents.

Again saying one should just adopt doesn't come close to dealing with all the factors associated with infertility (and infertility does not automatically make one responsibile for the problems surrounding adoption and fostering, they are clearly separate issues). I sincerely hope no one here has to go through what my wife and I have.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 07:54:12 AM by Konki »

Buelligan

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #81 on: January 07, 2019, 08:01:20 AM »
I don’t think there are left-wing reasons to justify IVF whether paid for from the public purse or privately. IVF in itself is a way to help people preserve their genetic line at the emotional, physical and economic cost of children currently waiting for foster or adoptive parents. To pay for this out of public money is to declare a preference for individualistic reproduction over the needs of those who suffer it greatest. To allow people to pay privately carries all the baggage usually associated with private medicine but in addition it puts the perpetuation of genetic material more firmly in the hands of the wealthy.

Argue as much as you like for IVF but constantly increasing birth rate mainly benefits the constantly resource-hungry expansion of f consumer capitalism and can’t realky be justified from a collectivist point of view.

I can see the logic in this.  Take it further though and you have to withdraw lifesaving interventions  for people who would be a drain on the public purse and are not "productive".

Zetetic

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #82 on: January 07, 2019, 08:07:27 AM »
We have already justified putting in new interventions (with new spending) on the basis that they would improve productivity (by reducing sickness) and so 'pay for themselves'. Didn't work, for a few reasons, but still.

I think that's hard to escape once you're trying to look at the efficiency of interventions (which I think is inescapable once you have finite resources - whether it's people's time, beds or cash).

That still leaves open how you choose to value different types of social impact (and practically how you've decided to cut up responsibility across the state).

Paul Calf

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #83 on: January 07, 2019, 08:24:11 AM »
I have neither the time nor will to get into a discussion over this (and Trenter has already covered a lot of these population/resource arguments up thread) but I have to say this in particular is utter horseshit which assumes a binary choice that simply does not exist:


No, but it's a use of resources that creates an opportunity cost elsewhere.

Quote
Again saying one should just adopt doesn't come close to dealing with all the factors associated with infertility (and infertility does not automatically make one responsibile for the problems surrounding adoption and fostering, they are clearly separate issues). I sincerely hope no one here has to go through what my wife and I have.

And so do I, and it's good, a happy ending that you have come through that. There are many justifications for IVF, many reasons that it should exist but no real way of justifying it from a left-wing stance.

Perhaps this is why we become more right wing as we grow older: we encounter personal dilemmas that just can't be resolved with collectivist solutions.

Paul Calf

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #84 on: January 07, 2019, 08:26:49 AM »
I can see the logic in this.  Take it further though and you have to withdraw lifesaving interventions  for people who would be a drain on the public purse and are not "productive".

Are you denying that triage decisions have to be made when making decisions about healthcare funding? That doesn't automatically result in the dying being left outside for the vultures to peck at their livers, does it?

Paul Calf

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #85 on: January 07, 2019, 08:36:12 AM »
No, but it's a use of resources that creates an opportunity cost elsewhere.

And so do I, and it's good, a happy ending that you have come through that. There are many justifications for IVF, many reasons that it should exist but no real way of justifying it from a left-wing stance.

Perhaps this is why we become more right wing as we grow older: we encounter personal dilemmas that just can't be resolved with collectivist solutions.

I mean, to be clear, I don't think anyone should be making new babies until we've dealt with the ones we've got and can't home.

Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #86 on: January 07, 2019, 08:51:59 AM »
Fostering and Adopting are long and emotionally arduous processes, rigourous ones at that. Those processes would need to change markedly in order to 'speed up' the process of children getting allocated to new parents. There's also not much publicity around the option of adopting, that's certainly the case for a couple who may find out they are infertile or are reluctant to try again for a natural birth after infant loss or a difficulty in becoming  pregnant.

Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #87 on: January 07, 2019, 09:07:13 AM »
I mean, to be clear, I don't think anyone should be making new babies until we've dealt with the ones we've got and can't home.

I'd say that's a pretty extreme view.

touchingcloth

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #88 on: January 07, 2019, 09:14:54 AM »
I can see the logic in this.  Take it further though and you have to withdraw lifesaving interventions  for people who would be a drain on the public purse and are not "productive".

This. Also there should be automatic DNRs on blacks, Irish and dogs until they can prove themselves white and human.

icehaven

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Re: Becoming more right wing as you age
« Reply #89 on: January 07, 2019, 09:16:39 AM »
Is it right wing or just generally misanthropic to think there seems to have been a massive decrease in basic civility and manners, and that a lot more people seem aggressive, confrontational and quick to anger now? I definitely don't just mean young people either, in fact it's more noticeable in older folks as they're usually more polite and mild-mannered anyway but not anymore. Maybe it's just my perception as I grudgingly approach middle age and can feel cynicism and world-weariness growing by the day, but there just seems to be this ever present undercurrent of barely-suppressed fury at other people's very existence everywhere all the time. Maybe it's the papers and/or the general obvious shiteness of the world making us all suspicious of each other and permanently on guard or something but it's making me want to go and live in a hut in Canada.