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Becoming more right wing as you age

Started by touchingcloth, January 06, 2019, 06:03:34 PM

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touchingcloth

I think there were some good people and some bad people involved I what happened in Charlottesville. On both sides.

dex

I had the joy of working with someone 20 odd years older than me who used to canvass for the BNP a few years back. I said as a joke once that they should fire up the ovens again over some news issue or other being reported on the radio. Without missing a beat, Gary (yep) said that would be a great idea.

I'd say as I've got older I haven't become more right wing, but marginally more sensible and a little less idealistic.

P.S One of my favourite pranks at that awful factory job was to change Gary's DAB radio tuning to Punjab or Gaydar when he went on his break and observe his enraged reaction on his return.   

Paul Calf

Quote from: Konki on January 07, 2019, 09:07:13 AM
I'd say that's a pretty extreme view.

I'm not sure it's extreme to consider seriously the implications of having children beforehand and to come to the conclusion that the world doesn't really need any more humans than it already has. Any methods of addressing this would necessarily be extreme and would obviously be worse the problem they attempt to solve, so all we can really do is mitigate the consequences.

Doe rabbits reabsorb their litters before birth when their warrens become overcrowded. Perhaps we should try that.

Buelligan

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 07, 2019, 08:26:49 AM
Are you denying that triage decisions have to be made when making decisions about healthcare funding? That doesn't automatically result in the dying being left outside for the vultures to peck at their livers, does it?

I know this happens, whether it has to be done or not is another thing - my (youngish) mother was allowed to lose her sight on the basis that she had a terminal illness (unrelated to the blindness) and I strongly suspect that her terminal illness became terminal before it was diagnosed because her health practitioners decided that she'd already had her share of treatments, my brother has MS - I know it happens, believe me.  And I do think that sometimes we're pretty close to the vulture scenario, it's just that the people who are offered up are unable to to make a fuss (that's why they're chosen) and, in the context of this conversation, I think all of that is pretty right wing and therefore not really my bag.

Cloud

Still the same as I've always been, a sceptical leftie.  I remember being sat in the "job club" thing when I was 19 feeling an affinity for the Guardian while also reading the Daily Mail and Torygraph to get a balanced view and settling on mostly listening to the Independent (This was long before it was clickbait trash)

That's not really changed.  36 now going on 37.  I spent half of last year feeling an affinity for SJWs while watching bits of Sargon and mostly listening to Jordan Peterson as that comfortable centrist dad type.  The latter fell by the wayside in the latter half of last year when clocking on to the biased influence of Youtube's recommendations and some of the tricks JP pulls to sound like more of an expert than he is.

My parents are still kind of leftie or at least hate the Tories and Brexit, but also think there's a lot of "PC Gone Mad" like any older person does.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Quote from: Sin Agog on January 07, 2019, 04:38:10 AM
Yeah, Civilisation's a good watch.

There's an argument to be made that not keeping abreast of the news is inherently a little conservative, so maybe in that regard, but otherwise I'm more of a crusty dreamer with a minimal carbon footprint than ever.  The world would live at least an extra nine-to-ten years if everyone floundered below the poverty line like me.

More or less going the same way. Everything from charity shops these days, books second hand, take public transport everywhere and have developed a snobby disdain for people who have their groceries home delivered. Of course, if everyone lived like me, the entire capitalist system would collapse. So swings and roundabouts.

Buelligan

Just to add, on the topic of healthcare rationing and public purses, as you almost certainly realise, here, in France, the state stumps up some of your care (emergency lifesaving care, basic basics), after that, you need insurance.  A fellow from my village had a femoral aneurysm almost burst on him last week.  Rushed into surgery, intensive care, very nearly died.  Now, at home because he has no insurance. I'm just going to go and check on the poor lad.  That should make you nice and left wing as you age if anything can.

Replies From View

Quote from: touchingcloth on January 06, 2019, 06:03:34 PM
Since turning 30, I've find myself a fair bit more in agreement with some ideas than the younger me could ever have contemplated, such as supply-side economics, low (perhaps even zero) out of work benefits, and a guaranteed homeland for the Aryan race.

Have any others of you noticed your own personal Overton windows sliding rightwards? If so, how?

No; I've found that with increased understanding and awareness I have moved more to the left.  I generally take the "becoming more right-wing as you age" adage to be a bit of a nod to senility rather than maturity.

Norton Canes

I get increasingly frequent attacks of right-wing mania. Like the other day, Fat Cat Day, first reaction was "Well what are they going to do, pluck the jobless off the streets and make them all executive directors? How are they going to know how to run companies? How's that going to work? HUH??"

I also find my arse has become more irritable as I've got older.

Norton Canes

Also,  I've given the OP the slot it deserves in the GUFFAW thread.

bgmnts

Quote from: icehaven on January 07, 2019, 09:16:39 AM
Is it right wing or just generally misanthropic to think there seems to have been a massive decrease in basic civility and manners, and that a lot more people seem aggressive, confrontational and quick to anger now? I definitely don't just mean young people either, in fact it's more noticeable in older folks as they're usually more polite and mild-mannered anyway but not anymore. Maybe it's just my perception as I grudgingly approach middle age and can feel cynicism and world-weariness growing by the day, but there just seems to be this ever present undercurrent of barely-suppressed fury at other people's very existence everywhere all the time. Maybe it's the papers and/or the general obvious shiteness of the world making us all suspicious of each other and permanently on guard or something but it's making me want to go and live in a hut in Canada.

I'd say the same, although I operate on the outskirts of social circles, so everything seems hostile or negative to me. I do feel like people are less able to be civil and kind though. Internet maybe?

checkoutgirl

I've leaned slightly to the right with age. Only slightly and only because I'm 40 and still on a crap wage and would have a very welcome few hundred quid extra a month if I paid less tax. Also when I was in my 20s I was mildly pro political correctness but there's a lot of nonsense on the internet that, taken out of context, or even taken in context, can easily convince me political correctness has gone mad. Overall political correctness has not gone mad but 15% of the time it definitely has. But people insisting they are referred to as "they" and people who call themselves "woke bae" is still worth the other 85% of good stuff that political correctness strives to provide, so I'm still quite left wing on that front.

Luckily I don't tend to dwell on these things too much because I have to make the dinner and get to work without a car and so forth. Last night I realised the bathroom tiles are covered with a thin film of black dirt that I hadn't noticed and the landlord really should have dealt with so I have to sort that out. These things distract me from being right wing rather than fuelling my desire to be right wing.

Also, fundamentally I agree with the poster who said right wing politics generally boil down to "I want all the birthday cake for myself and screw everyone else" at a birthday party. Because I can't escape the thought that that's exactly what it is. I'm leaning slightly to the right because I work 5 days a week for a shit wage and I want more, I want more because I want more. Not because of some grand scheme or system of fairness. It's just selfishness.

Replies From View

Quote from: touchingcloth on January 06, 2019, 06:52:45 PM
What's the best thing about fucking eighty one year old orphans?

They're so fertile.

The 81 Year Old Orphan is a direct-to-VHS sequel to The 40 Year Old Virgin.

Ferris

Quote from: Konki on January 07, 2019, 09:07:13 AM
I'd say that's a pretty extreme view.

Yes, it is ludicrous. I'm amazed anyone would try and advance it as an argument here.

Why on earth would you deny someone IVF if it is in the state's power to give? It's like denying people chemotherapy on the basis that there are too many people in the world (in your opinion) so sorry but you don't get what you want. Trying to tie it to left wing politics is bizarre.

It's either badly thought out, or monstrous. I can't see it any other way.

Icehaven

Quote from: bgmnts on January 07, 2019, 11:38:16 AM
I'd say the same, although I operate on the outskirts of social circles, so everything seems hostile or negative to me. I do feel like people are less able to be civil and kind though. Internet maybe?

Yeah that too probably, and it's the bubble again isn't it? Online you can surround yourself only with exactly what you want when you want it, say what you like to who you like, and you're constantly being told every moment of your life and every thought you have really, truly matters. It was inevitable that such a hugely appealing and gratifying mindset would very quickly become how people actually think they should be able to live in the world. No wonder everyone's so pissed off.

Ferris

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 07, 2019, 09:55:06 AM
I'm not sure it's extreme to consider seriously the implications of having children beforehand and to come to the conclusion that the world doesn't really need any more humans than it already has. Any methods of addressing this would necessarily be extreme and would obviously be worse the problem they attempt to solve, so all we can really do is mitigate the consequences.

Doe rabbits reabsorb their litters before birth when their warrens become overcrowded. Perhaps we should try that.

It is massively extreme. You can't genuinely be advancing this as an argument.

Are you just trying to be edgy?

touchingcloth

Quote from: Buelligan on January 07, 2019, 10:14:35 AM
MS

Well this is somewhat relevant. I was trying to find a thread I started a couple of years ago titled something like "gammy hand", which was a great bunch of lols about a finger of mine that refused to extend properly. It turns out that those lols were just a warm and cosy precursor to my entire hand turning off in October just gone, which became a diagnosis of MS after a bleak night in the hospital where I was all but certain than an MR scan I'd had pointed to a tumour in my spine.

That's kind of by the by - I'm basically fine and with a little bit of luck the diagnosis will mean a very minmal impact on my lifestyle - and more a way to say that it's one of many, many ways I've become more leftie the older I've got. Prior to my jaunt in hospital the only time I'd seen the NHS was to get sleeping tabs from the GP, but spending time as an inpatient I found that all of the things I'd paid loud lip servive to from a position of ignorance were actually true. The staff and the care I received were incredible - properly world class - and I wish nothing but pain, misery and ultra-MS on anyone who would try to cut it to the bone and profit from it.

I did briefly entertain a thought along the lines of "well at least I get a blue badge", and was minorly and briefly miffed when I found out that I don't. So that's right wing.

Paul Calf

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on January 07, 2019, 01:27:23 PM
It is massively extreme. You can't genuinely be advancing this as an argument.

Are you just trying to be edgy?

Advancing what? That people think twice about the implications of having children? That procreation shouldn't be held up as a universally and unalloyed glory that reflects gold onto all involved?

It's 'extreme' to think through the consequences of reproducing? What?

Kelvin

Definitely got more left wing as I've got older - largely because I've become more engaged with politics. In my teens, I was a vocal and passionate social liberal, but engaged so little with politics that I just backed whatever party felt most superficially progressive - Labour of Lib Dems, variably. I also supported the Iraq war in the stupidity of my teens (probably my biggest political regret), and at 17 told my college tutor that I would probably have voted Tory "because that's what my dad did". I shudder looking back on those last two.

Nowadays, I'm a blend of a socialist and a left leaning social democrat, but I have noticed that, like Chechoutgirl above, I increasingly find about "15%" of political correctness legitimately a bit silly, overly literal and lacking nuance, even if it mostly comes from a good place.

I also think my definition of liberal values might clash with some of my fellow left winger around issues of free speech and how we treat and view our political enemies. For me, being liberal is about having empathy for everyone, not just the obvious victims and the vulnerable, but also every living person whose a victim of environment and circumstance. There's a conflict within me over how we tackle hate speech, etc, and I think as the years go by on this site, I find myself disagreeing with the vehement anger some people have towards people who fuck up, or are, on a superficial level, irredeemably shit. To me, that empathy is a core pillar of left wing philosophy, though, so I don't actually believe it's an example of me moving right, just a different interpretation of how he tackle the same issues.

Twed

Quote from: checkoutgirl on January 07, 2019, 12:08:06 PM
I've leaned slightly to the right with age. Only slightly and only because I'm 40 and still on a crap wage and would have a very welcome few hundred quid extra a month if I paid less tax
Badly-paid people paying less tax is arguably a left wing opinion.

Ferris

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 07, 2019, 01:38:02 PM
Advancing what? That people think twice about the implications of having children? That procreation shouldn't be held up as a universally and unalloyed glory that reflects gold onto all involved?

It's 'extreme' to think through the consequences of reproducing? What?

No, people obviously think before having kids. I should know. That, of course, is not what I think is extreme.

What is extreme is denying IVF on the basis that it is "left wing" or that you reckon there are too many people in the world already so tough. Like I say, it is similar to denying someone an appendectomy or chemotherapy on the basis that you reckon the world is overpopulated already. I think Michael Caine's Scrooge advances a similar hypothesis in an attempt to be cartoonishly villainous which is why I can't believe anyone seriously believes that and must just be trying to be edgy. See also: your execrable argument comparing planet earth to a rabbit warren.

I hope you or your partner never have fertility problems.

Cloud

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 07, 2019, 01:38:02 PM
Advancing what? That people think twice about the implications of having children? That procreation shouldn't be held up as a universally and unalloyed glory that reflects gold onto all involved?

It's 'extreme' to think through the consequences of reproducing? What?

With you on this one in part.  I wouldn't advocate forcing anyone not to have kids or denying them IVF, but as it's probably the best thing one can do for the future of the planet (and humanity) right now not to have them, I'd maybe try to shift the social attitudes away from the sense of "you haven't lived unless you've had kids" that still clings on.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Social attitudes and biological urge.

Not to mention, as highlighted in the Veganuary threads, the fact that anyone taking an ethical stance is automatically rounded on by people who are too insecure to stop themselves feeling inferior and need to right this wrong by attacking the person probably doing something harmless/morally right.

Ferris

Quote from: Cloud on January 07, 2019, 01:48:38 PM
With you on this one in part.  I wouldn't advocate forcing anyone not to have kids or denying them IVF, but as it's probably the best thing one can do for the future of the planet (and humanity) right now not to have them, I'd maybe try to shift the social attitudes away from the sense of "you haven't lived unless you've had kids" that still clings on.

I agree kids aren't for everyone. I'm definitely not advocating that.

What I am saying is if someone wants kids, needs IVF, but the state won't provide for spurious reasons then that is cruel and pointless.

Paul Calf

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on January 07, 2019, 01:48:33 PM
No, people obviously think before having kids. I should know. That, of course, is not what I think is extreme.

What is extreme is denying IVF on the basis that it is "left wing" or that you reckon there are too many people in the world already so tough. Like I say, it is similar to denying someone an appendectomy or chemotherapy on the basis that you reckon the world is overpopulated already. I think Michael Caine's Scrooge advances a similar hypothesis in an attempt to be cartoonishly villainous which is why I can't believe anyone seriously believes that and must just be trying to be edgy. See also: your execrable argument comparing planet earth to a rabbit warren.

I hope you or your partner never have fertility problems.

If you'd read it properly and not gone off half-cocked you'd have noticed that I said nothing about 'denying' anyone anything, just that it's not something that's possible to justify on left-wing grounds and so is an example of opinions drifting to the right which is the subject of this thread.

QuoteWhat is extreme is denying IVF on the basis that it is "left wing"

Which didn't happen

QuoteLike I say, it is similar to denying someone an appendectomy or chemotherapy on the basis that you reckon the world is overpopulated already.

It really isn't though, is it?


Ferris


SpiderChrist

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on January 07, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
I can think of nothing more cancerous than simply insisting where you were born was an accident, and that therefore it has somehow had no impact on your upbringing or present worldview.

Well, I do insist that my place of birth was an accident, but do not think that it has had no impact on my upbringing or present worldview. So, 50% chance of getting cancer, then. That's nice.

Cuellar

If you subscribe to right-wing ideas, do you become older? I mean, in a purely linear time way of course you do because in the process of thinking about and then agreeing with right-wing ideas you will necessarily age.

But if you did loads in one go, would you start wizening before my very eyes? Was that what Benjamin Button was about? Or was he the other way round (looking younger as he got older? Maybe he was born a real Nazi and gradually dropped those ideas, I don't know)?

Paul Calf

The Lost Ark was full of right-wing ideas.


TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Paul Calf on January 07, 2019, 06:07:35 AM
IVF in itself is a way to help people preserve their genetic line at the emotional, physical and economic cost of children currently waiting for foster or adoptive parents.

Completely batshit crazy.  Sorry you have really lost the plot on this.