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Twenty years ago today, a guy walked into a psychiatrist's office...

Started by Keebleman, January 10, 2019, 06:51:17 PM

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colacentral

Quote from: Rev+ on January 24, 2019, 12:24:12 AM
The tunnel scene was a different ending that was considered as a death sequence a couple of series before the thing ended.  Chase has stated that Tony doesn't die at the end of the series as it eventually manifested:  https://www.vox.com/2014/8/27/6006139/did-tony-die-at-the-end-of-the-sopranos

But the phrasing there was probably down to his mood on the day.  The day after he'd have maybe said he died.  The answer is there's no answer, which is why it's as ambiguous as it is.  The ending we got is a fantasy - it's Tony imagining what might happen in that restaurant before he's seated at a table he looks over at, or it's literal and the religious imagery is really happening.  Neither option works, because they're not supposed to.  We're not supposed to be able to settle on one side or the other.

Why would it be a fantasy? Because he sees the table before it cuts to him sitting at it? It follows two scenes where the same thing happens - visiting Janice and visiting Junior.

The black is clearly meant to evoke death - that much is certain. So why? Maybe it's symbolic and the idea that, whatever happens, he's fucked: either he dies or goes to prison, hence him hammering the point about his indictment home to Carmela in that scene. He had multiple chances to change, more or less told by the universe "this is your last chance," and he couldn't do it.

But if you look at the early part of season 6 (as in 6A), and particularly the first episode: death is all over it. The opening montage is set to "Seven Souls." Bobby's scene in the montage is foreshadowing The Blue Comet. Several characters die; Tony first appears digging a hole; he's shot at the end of it by a Junior who thinks he's someone who's already long-dead, Carmela sees Adriana in her dream,  etc.

Remember that 6A was meant to be the actual final season when it entered production - my theory is that each episode would have been about a death: Hesh's wife and Tony's disregard for it; Kennedy & Heidi; Vito; The Blue Comet, etc. If not for the Vito padding and break between 6A and 6B I think that death theme would have lent less ambiguity to the finale.

I also think it's worth pointing out the idea of the final scene being a microcosm of America: Tony begins the season having visions of monks, eating sushi, seeing the inter-connectedness of things (him sat by the pool, staring at the trees, cut to Paulie underneath similar trees kicking the shit out of someone; what Twin Peaks 3 also explores); and it ends with "Made in America", an episode where there's a close-up of the Ford logo as a car crushes a skull; AJ's brief fling with being socially conscious is interrupted by him being gifted a classically American job as a clueless Hollywood producer; and Tony gorges on American junk food while listening to American junk music. So, what's to be read into that is ambiguous, I suppose, but I see it as both an ironic criticism of American popular culture's affect on the psyche / morality; and as a symbol of Tony's ultimate, final rejection of change. He wants the easy junk food life, and he'll pay for it.

I don't think it was left ambiguous to be ambiguous, i.e. read into this what you want; I think the foreshadowing, themes and symbolism make it plain. What I do accept though is that the death may not be intended literally. But then, there's too much plot pointing to that conclusion for me. I think the circumstances of Phil's death and the prominence of Patsy in the finale are a bit too on the nose to be denied really. Meadow not managing to sit at the table is meant to be the most painful thing - he didn't get that big happy final memory with his family before his death. I think the Junior scene sets that up too - he's not going out like The Godfather, he's a sad old man with no visitors and no memory.

I also wonder if the fate of Janice is a cruel joke by Chase - crocodile tears but she's got a massive house and a nice payout for Bobby. She's sorted.

Custard

If Tony did die at the end, and I certainly think he did, as everything in that final season clearly points to him doing so, then I doubt Janice actually got that promised payout from New York. She was also sending the kids away to boarding school, and probably wouldn't be able to keep the big house anymore either. So she was pretty fucked too, I'd say. She ended up as her mother. Alone, bitter, and with just a hanky.

Everyone in it ends up in a miserable place. Except maybe Artie and Charmaine. But then they're quite nice people. For all Carmella's bragging and posturing, her kids have ended up as relative disapointments to her, whereas Charmaine's kids seemed to be thriving by the end. Hence the awkward final scene between the two couples in the restaurant. Artie and Charmaine lived a decent life, and ended up winning. Bet Artie still has a wank bank shuffle over the memory of Adriana, mind

lipsink

Quote from: Shameless Custard on January 24, 2019, 11:42:36 AM
Bet Artie still has a wank bank shuffle over the memory of Adriana, mind

And every other woman who worked at the restaurant that he thought he was in with a chance with.

Custard

True!

"If only I still had my hair..."

Never fails to make me laff

jobotic

Quote from: lebowskibukowski on January 23, 2019, 01:46:33 PM
FWIW, Romanzo Criminale, The Wire and Engrenages in that order. Have not yet watched The Sopranos (am planning a bit of a binge with the missus when she finally gets through The Gilmore Fucking Girls) and didn't get past the first episode of Breaking Bad. I know that you are meant to give series like these time to breathe but it just didn't grab me.

Romanzo Criminale? I really enjoyed it when it was on and would like to watch it again but it was a bit silly, particularly when the Lebanese got really coked up.

lebowskibukowski

Quote from: jobotic on January 24, 2019, 04:17:21 PM
Romanzo Criminale? I really enjoyed it when it was on and would like to watch it again but it was a bit silly, particularly when the Lebanese got really coked up.

I loved it. I think a lot of these type shows could benefit from having a shorter run, 2 or 3 seasons. Certainly issue with the likes of Game Of Thrones that just becomes bloated and repeats the same storyline when you reach 6,7,8 seasons.
Romanzo did occasionally stray into caricature but I could watch Dandi lording it up on a loop, and I think the last episode might just be my favourite single episode of a show ever. That, or when Ringo wins a Holiday in 'Never The Twain'...

holyzombiejesus

I finally got the bluray boxset and am going to watch my first ever episode of the Sopranos tonight. Excited and slightly worried I've wasted £35.

Lost Oliver

Stick with it and you'll end up watching the best thing EVER. These characters will become your mates. Albeit mates that you wouldn't really want to hang out with in real life. Not for long anyway. Would probably go for a meal with them. And they'd pay!

Blinder Data

Quote from: Lost Oliver on February 27, 2019, 07:43:32 AM
Stick with it and you'll end up watching the best thing EVER. These characters will become your mates. Albeit mates that you wouldn't really want to hang out with in real life. Not for long anyway. Would probably go for a meal with them. And they'd pay!

Yeah, no programme has cultivated such likeable bastards. To have a conversation about which character is your favourite is to remind you there are too many to choose from. I love Chrissie, I love Junior, I love Artie, I love Hesh, I love Johnny Sacks, I love Tony, Adriana, Little Carmine. Paulie was always a bit too mental for me but Christ, they're my pals and I don't know where I'd be without them.

Chollis

Who would you say was the least irredeemable piece of shit bastard in the Soprano crew? Probably Bobby right? Great bunch of lads though

gatchamandave

Quote from: holyzombiejesus on February 26, 2019, 09:01:08 PM
I finally got the bluray boxset and am going to watch my first ever episode of the Sopranos tonight. Excited and slightly worried I've wasted £35.

Probably best if you avoid this thread for a ti!e because you've got a lot of good times ahead that we might spoil for you.

Bazooka

Quote from: holyzombiejesus on February 26, 2019, 09:01:08 PM
I finally got the bluray boxset and am going to watch my first ever episode of the Sopranos tonight. Excited and slightly worried I've wasted £35.

I mean you've wasted your time in a modern sense, because you can watch it all for free, however you own good quality versions of the greatest piece of television.

And to each the above comment, you have six seasons to watch.

paruses

Quote from: Chollis on February 27, 2019, 12:11:20 PM
Who would you say was the least irredeemable piece of shit bastard in the Soprano crew? Probably Bobby right? Great bunch of lads though

Yes, Bobby. There is literally no other choice.