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Game Of Thrones Season 8

Started by Dog Botherer, January 15, 2019, 06:13:03 AM

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I've been thinking about Bran's portrayal in the final season, and I think I am starting to like it. If I am not mistaken, he is the low-key villain of the show. After the Battle of Winterfell episode, everyone asked, 'But what does Bran actually DO?' Now that the season is over, I think we should be looking mostly at the things he DOESN'T do.

- Doesn't tell the court about Jaime's attempted murder of Bran. This allows the Kingslayer to be accepted by the other leaders, causing aggravation for Dany.
- Insists that Sam tell Jon about his true parentage, causing even more shit.
- Doesn't tell Dany about Euron's fleet and the scorpions.
- Obviously knows about Varys' scheming but allows it to reach the critical point.
- Also knows about the destruction of KL, because he had that vision of the dragon over KL. Does nothing to prevent it.
- Doesn't act anything like Brandon Strark.
- Doesn't implement any new policies.

Nothing about the ending indicates that Bran will be a good or benign king. In fact, his comment to the council is that they seem to be missing a master of war and a master of whispers. Basically, Three-Eyed Raven manipulated his way to the throne and is pursuing some unknown agenda that may be hostile to the human race.

Mobius

It's a confusing power though. Like when he said that Tyrion says "we'll draw up a list of suitable candidates" but presumably Bran already knows who will fill those positions and every decision they'll ever make?

They said he was the keeper of history, the Westeros Wikipedia ... but he also has visions of the future? Or can see the whole future? For example he must have known the Dothraki charge at the Army of Dead was pointless. Or was it? Does everything happen for a reason?

Presumably the 3 Eyed Raven knew Bran would be crippled by Jaime, and so Bran had to make Hodor Hold The Door, but Hodor went all funny before Bran was born/crippled/3eyedraven'd...

I don't understand how it works!


Gulftastic

You might be on to something. Maybe his line about seeing if he could find Drogon was a veiled threat?

phantom_power

Quote from: sevendaughters on May 22, 2019, 10:38:18 PM
Was trying to think who the last introduced good character was and when it was, not counting one-offs like Ian McShane.

Good point. Oberon maybe?

Cuellar

Bran is a terrifying figure to have on the throne, no question. Knows all but seems to care not a jot about any actual human being. Utterly dis/uninterested.

Like the Windsors if they were all psychic.

Gulftastic

Quote from: phantom_power on May 23, 2019, 09:57:26 AM
Good point. Oberon maybe?

That sand snake with the belting pair.

Custard


dallasman

Quote from: Default to the negative on May 23, 2019, 01:33:47 AM
I've been thinking about Bran's portrayal in the final season, and I think I am starting to like it. If I am not mistaken, he is the low-key villain of the show. After the Battle of Winterfell episode, everyone asked, 'But what does Bran actually DO?' Now that the season is over, I think we should be looking mostly at the things he DOESN'T do.

- Doesn't tell the court about Jaime's attempted murder of Bran. This allows the Kingslayer to be accepted by the other leaders, causing aggravation for Dany.
- Insists that Sam tell Jon about his true parentage, causing even more shit.
- Doesn't tell Dany about Euron's fleet and the scorpions.
- Obviously knows about Varys' scheming but allows it to reach the critical point.
- Also knows about the destruction of KL, because he had that vision of the dragon over KL. Does nothing to prevent it.
- Doesn't act anything like Brandon Strark.
- Doesn't implement any new policies.

Nothing about the ending indicates that Bran will be a good or benign king. In fact, his comment to the council is that they seem to be missing a master of war and a master of whispers. Basically, Three-Eyed Raven manipulated his way to the throne and is pursuing some unknown agenda that may be hostile to the human race.

All valid points, but I think it's simply too interesting an interpretation. True, Bran is mysterious, but all the magic, supernatural stuff has just been left unexplained, and it seems like no one - not the writers, nor any of the characters - quite knows if and how any of it works. Or is that arsed about it. Same with inexplicable behaviour like the examples you list. As presented by the show, Bran is simply a an unusual, and broken, person from a great house, who can do the odd magic trick. Not that exceptional, given the many resurrections we have witnessed, and the visions and prophecies of other, often minor characters. Jon was literally murdered and lay dead for days before being brought back. Melisandre, Thoros and Beric are dead, but their methods were clearly familiar to the Red Priestesses. And yet, no one seems very interested in learning more about these miracles. Given more time, the show could've developed these plot strands much further, but they've been consigned to cameos and random-seeming deus ex machina interventions when demanded by the plot. It's a world where magic actually exists to some extent, but even living witnesses to miracles sort of shrug it all off. The Faith Militant was a sham and a cult. Sons of the Harpy a religiously-tinged terrorist group. The Faceless Men were basically a criminal enterprise. But Melisandre performed wonders. People rose from the dead. Dany had magic powers. Valyrian steel and dragonglass are magical substances. Kinvara knew about the voice from the flames. The Night King and the White Walkers were real. Clearly, Sam should be all over this in the years ahead.

Anyway, wouldn't a Tree-Eyed Raven want to be near the Weirdwood, and become King in the North? Or are his powers now independent of the "net"? Literal ravens aren't that practical if the idea is for Bran to become the national CCTV grid or something, but he made a big deal of sending them out just to see where the Night King was, which gave them a couple of minutes forewarning at the most. Just based on the general shape of the show, and its haphazardly way with magic, my feeling was that Bran was going to search for Drogon, by going back to his chambers, rolling his eyes back and looking around somehow. And that Tyrion not only has the Small Council thing down to a fine art, but is also making wise priorities: Not setting up a network of spies and plotting revenge on Dany supporters, but rebuilding homes and feeding the people. We know this because all our friends are on the council: noble Brienne, folksy Davos, streetsmart Bronn, that son of a gun. And if that weren't enough, we have Citadel dropout and Grandmeister Sam Tarley, the nicest, wisest man in all the Six Kingdoms. They'll take care of the day-to-day, while Bran looks at history for guidance.

Of course, were there to be a 9th series, I'd have preferred your interpretation. Not to say it's going to be all smiles and sunshine, but I think Bran/3ER is basically a decent bunch of lads, and that any sinister intent would've been more clearly signposted. They might've consciously chosen to leave him as a possible "wild card", but if so, it's far too ambigous and vague. He says he doesn't really want anything, so that's probably what we're supposed to think. We've been told repeatedly that rulers who want things - very much including executive power -  inevitably end up causing death and destruction. If anything, the lesson learnt about "power residing where people believe it resides" is that Tyrion is basically going to be running things.

BTW: The idea that Tyrion isn't mentioned in that massive doorstop about all that's happened in the series, is the most laughably crowbarred-in "irony" I ever saw. He and his siblings are literally at the centre of all the major events. He was taken prisoner by Kat Stark, accused of plotting to murder Bran Stark, currently King Bran the Broken. He was accused of murdering King Goffrey Baratheon, and his trial by combat involved The Mountain killing Oberyn Martell in quite spectacular fashion. He did later murder his father, Tywin Lannister. Even if Tywin got all the credit for defeating Stannis at Blackwater, surely the meister would mention the fact that he was murdered by his own dwarf son with King Goffrey's crossbow? You have to figure that Dany and her dragons are mentioned in the book. Tyrion was her hand, and instrumental in her making alliances in Westeros. Still not worth a mention, despite the aforementioned and historically significant scandals? The book is clearly fresh from the printer, and some time has passed since a handcuffed Tyrion - last living Lannister, hand to the recently murdered Queen and brother to the previous Queen and her brother/lover - basically ad-libbed the new constitution of Westeros, nominated the new King and became his hand. Not mentioned, huh? So he gets to be the smartest man, the kingmaker, queenmaker and lawmaker, The Most Famous Dwarf In The World, and at the same time, we're supposed to think of him as the unsung hero? Gimme a fucking break.

Also, while we're nitpicking, there was apparently a water bottle by Sam's chair in the Dragon Pit scene, which rather adds to the almost surreal, table-read-like feeling of the whole thing.

But, it bears repeating, I stayed an enthusiastic viewer to the very end, and never felt I was "hate-watching". I try to stay level-headed about these things, but the speculation and analysis has become such a vital part of the overall GoT experience that you inevitably get into a whole other level of pedantry. Just as much of the criticism is easily answered, most of those answers can be picked apart or simply rejected on whatever grounds. It all goes round and round and we all have to draw the line somewhere, simply by dint of having other things going on in life. And I must say, even some of the really angry YouTubers I've skipped through seem pretty sane overall, though I suspect there are some real case studies among their viewership. Over a million people signed that petition. People did really name their babies after show characters. As much hubbub and hostililty as CaB can offer in some of its threads, it really feels like a happy medium when it comes to stuff like this. Solid nerddom, healthy scepticism toward mass culture.
So much for checking out of Westeros, I guess, but I finished rewatching the finale last night (having given up on my first attempt), and when I clicked the thread, I found I had a few more thoughts to squeeze out.

tl;dr: just emptying my head of GoT content.

Harpo Speaks

Quote from: Cuellar on May 23, 2019, 10:12:15 AM
Bran is a terrifying figure to have on the throne, no question. Knows all but seems to care not a jot about any actual human being. Utterly dis/uninterested.

I think if you were looking for an ideal ruler, you'd at least hope for someone who at least retained some degree of human empathy. It feels like they've effectively put an AI in charge of Westeros. I do like that Tyrion is the power behind the throne and hopefully provides a bit of balance, but still.

I wasn't furious about the choice, but I can't honestly say that I liked it. I think the main issue is that they haven't really done enough throughout the show to sell Bran as a compelling character to the audience. The fact that Isaac Hempstead Wright seems to be a pretty weak actor doesn't help the situation, as there's nothing there to latch on to or be engaged by. Speculation, but do I wonder if this led to a reduction of his screen time overall. Not ideal if you want to seed the idea of him as a major player in the game as the series moves towards its conclusion.

Started a rewatch last night. I think it will always be remembered as a great show overall by the majority, despite the missteps.

Piggyoioi

Quote from: Mobius on May 23, 2019, 04:48:12 AM
It's a confusing power though. Like when he said that Tyrion says "we'll draw up a list of suitable candidates" but presumably Bran already knows who will fill those positions and every decision they'll ever make?

They said he was the keeper of history, the Westeros Wikipedia ... but he also has visions of the future? Or can see the whole future? For example he must have known the Dothraki charge at the Army of Dead was pointless. Or was it? Does everything happen for a reason?

Presumably the 3 Eyed Raven knew Bran would be crippled by Jaime, and so Bran had to make Hodor Hold The Door, but Hodor went all funny before Bran was born/crippled/3eyedraven'd...

I don't understand how it works!

Non of it matters

sevendaughters


ZoyzaSorris

Not a bad ending. GOT started as 10/10 and ended about 7/10, good stats all in all. All the whining word wide web wankers incorrectly calling out plot holes and saying things like 'stick the landing' need to get in crypt, glad to see the common sense consensus conglomerating around this correct viewpoint.

good times

Quote from: AsparagusTrevor on May 21, 2019, 11:05:14 AM
Or Dany looks towards the door then cut to black.

This would have been awesome.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: phantom_power on May 21, 2019, 07:36:05 PM
She is going to undiscovered lands so it doesn't need to fit in with anything we know about Westeros

Likely to be absolutely and utterly rancid foetid unmitigated piles of total and fucking dog shit then.

Alberon

Quote from: ZoyzaSorris on May 23, 2019, 06:02:00 PM
Not a bad ending. GOT started as 10/10 and ended about 7/10, good stats all in all. All the whining word wide web wankers incorrectly calling out plot holes and saying things like 'stick the landing' need to get in crypt, glad to see the common sense consensus conglomerating around this correct viewpoint.

I'd say, looking back, the ending was 7/10 but the season dipped below 5/10 at points. And it was too fucking rushed.

Kryton

There's a theory floating round that Varys poisoned Dany with something to send her fucking mental. To prove a point.

In the beginning of the episode he was speaking to one of his little birds (spies) and mentioned something about her 'not eating her food' and 'the greater the risk the greater the reward' and 'go back to your kitchen'... The theory is that he poisoned Dany's food with something that wouldn't kill her, but instead send her mad, forcing her to burn King's Landing and thus make Jon kill her.

Probably bollocks, but that's now my head-canon.

(Also who the fuck was he sending those scrolls to that he was writing out?)

Alberon

I think that was just a straight forward attempt to poison her to death.

As to the letters, I thought he was getting the news of Jon Snow's real parentage out there, but that just didn't go anywhere at all. Too fucking rushed.

Custard

Decent video from Midnight's Edge on why two of the three planned spin-offs appear to now be on hold/cancelled

https://youtu.be/8rNIqzuT5h0

Kryton

Quote from: Shameless Custard on May 24, 2019, 01:03:53 AM
Decent video from Midnight's Edge on why two of the three planned spin-offs appear to now be on hold/cancelled

https://youtu.be/8rNIqzuT5h0

Can you summarise it please? (too late here to watch vids).

Custard

In short, the poor reaction the final season has received. Apparently HBO are pissed off too, as they feel D&D should have agreed to do more episodes/seasons to tell the story in a better way

The head of HBO is saying the only Thrones project currently being worked on is the pilot that's filming at the moment, with Naomi Watts and John Simm. Nothing else is going ahead, at the moment


phantom_power

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on May 23, 2019, 08:09:35 PM
Likely to be absolutely and utterly rancid foetid unmitigated piles of total and fucking dog shit then.

That's the spirit

Old Nehamkin

Quote from: Shameless Custard on May 24, 2019, 01:03:53 AM
Decent video from Midnight's Edge on why two of the three planned spin-offs appear to now be on hold/cancelled

https://youtu.be/8rNIqzuT5h0

Everything I've ever seen from that channel has been the worst kind of droning clickbait bullshit on Youtube. They rely on flimsy second-hand rumours and contrived conspiracy theories to create an impression of authoritative behind-the-scenes access. They've been confidently announcing the imminent cancellation of Star Trek Discovery (currently filming its third season) about twice a month since it premiered, because like GOT or Star Wars, there's plenty of money to be made from aggrieved fans who are hungry for affirmation, however credible the source.

The GOT finale was the highest-rated broadcast in HBO's history. It seems a little hard to believe that the network heads are feeling mad at Beinoff and Weiss right now.

Custard

It had massive viewing figures, yep, but the critical feedback it then got has (apparently) lead to them having cold feet about the audience being still there for multiple spin offs.

To be fair, I think that's the savvy business decision at the moment, as obviously these shows cost a fuckwad to make. Maybe the pilot for the one show that is going ahead will be so great and loved that more stuff will be greenlit in its wake, but for now I think this is the sensible option

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a27557268/game-of-thrones-unlikely-more-than-one-spin-off-hbo/

NoSleep

Makes sense regardless of the reaction to the finale; look into several possible spin offs and then pick one to go with.

Small Man Big Horse

Quote from: dallasman on May 23, 2019, 12:20:07 PM
tl;dr: just emptying my head of GoT content.

That was a really great read and I agree with you on all points, especially when it comes to Tyrion and not being in the book, given everything you mentioned it's just absurd.

Mister Six

Quote from: NoSleep on May 24, 2019, 10:50:50 AM
Makes sense regardless of the reaction to the finale; look into several possible spin offs and then pick one to go with.

Yeah, that would be a sensible way to do it, rather than investing three times the cash in three unconnected but otherwise largely similar medieval fantasy shows. Didn't they commission pre-production on five shows originally, to whittle then down? This looks like a continuation of that.

I do think that the very mixed (and in the media, largely negative) response to GoT probably dampened their ardour a bit, mind you. If it had ended to rapturous applause and cries for more right now then maybe two shows would be justified. Three definitely sounds like far too many though, especially for a network as diverse as HBO.

Anyway, what spin-offs would people like to see? I'd like to see the ongoing banter between Tyrion and the Small Council. You could call it Talk to The Hand.

Head Gardener


mothman

What's HBO's big draw going to be now, then? I see there's a trailer out for Westworld season 3 (it's got Aaron Paul in it) but it's not showing till next year...

beanheadmcginty

There's a bit in the last episode where Dany is looking at the Iron Throne just before Jon Snow turns up and the expression on her face is identical to the.real.sonic.

Mister Six

Hey, did Grey Worm always have a really weak chin? I mean, did they used to hide it better? I didn't notice it until the last couple of episodes. Was it symbolic of his morals withering away after his missus died?

Quote from: mothman on May 24, 2019, 10:51:01 PM
What's HBO's big draw going to be now, then? I see there's a trailer out for Westworld season 3 (it's got Aaron Paul in it) but it's not showing till next year...

Westworld lost a ton of viewers with its shit second season, didn't it?