Game Of Thrones Season 8

[Alberon]

I don't think GRRM will decisively end the story, he is just not that corny.

Plus after he gets The Winds of Winter completed this year or next he'll spend the rest of his life on A Dream of Spring and never actually finish it no matter how long he lives.

[greenman]

Something I'm struggling with is the redditinternet tendency to turn someone from hero to villain in an instant. So we now all think that Dan and David are awful terrible talentless hacks, even though we've loved the show for five or six seasons. The point that the show is weaker without the source material is fairly undeniable, but I'm not on board with the way it's being generally accepted that this means they're retroactively a pair of shit idiots whose mediocre work was propped up by the books. To me that shows an intentional disregard for how TV works, in the name of perpetuating an easy narrative out of frustration with this season. They delivered season after season of brilliant, compelling television, which everyone loved, they corralled together a stellar cast, really nailed the setting and characters on-screen, they translated the story into a different medium brilliantly, found and created beautiful ways to bring the settings to life visually, they wrote and structured and directed hugely compelling seasons of television; they did a fucking great job. It's not as easy as just 'book is good so dum-dum showrunners make good show'. But the current narrative seems to push that.

I do think some issues are likely the same reasons Martin is taking so long to deliver the books, your shifting from an ever expanding narrative into one that's needing to be collapsed down plus the merger of the political and the fantasy plotlines. Added to that I think the show has taken the decision that the characters were in danger of becoming stale(Jamie's plots in season 5/6 being good examples) and has moved towards a quick conclusion.

That said I don't think the shows faults over the last two seasons are nearly as extreme as a lot of the talk makes them. The nature of the show has always been rather pulpy, the kind of thing where if your viewing it with a negative eye your likely to find plenty to scoff at IMHO.

I would say as well that the nature of the show really shifted after the 4th season, from that point onwards I think there was a greater desire to make things "cinematic", rather than the previously very dialog heavy style there was a shift towards trying to sell things visually.

[phantom_power]

I don't know why people think Dany's heel turn was rushed. She has been barely kept from carnage since the series began, usually talked down by wiser, calmer advisers. Now they are all either dead or she no longer trusts them there is no-one left to curb her more aggressive instincts. Missandei was the last truly loyal confidante and losing her so soon after Jorah could believably tip her over the edge, especially with the smell of war, victory and seared flesh in her nose

[Dr Sanchez]

I don't know why people think Dany's heel turn was rushed. She has been barely kept from carnage since the series began, usually talked down by wiser, calmer advisers. Now they are all either dead or she no longer trusts them there is no-one left to curb her more aggressive instincts. Missandei was the last truly loyal confidante and losing her so soon after Jorah could believably tip her over the edge, especially with the smell of war, victory and seared flesh in her nose

She has been harping on about saving civilians since the show started. It's pretty much her mission statement since day one and through to this season.

I would have understood her ruining the red keep and burning Cersei alive but to turn tens of thousands of innocent people to crisps because she was upset?

Nah not having that.

[Chollis]

By the way I know this was mentioned yesterday but I've just read two more articles on Thrones published today with the phrase "stick the landing" in them, having never heard the phrase before The Bells

What's going on here?

[Utter Shit]

Is this show shit now then? After that episode that every went mental about a few weeks ago I'd just about decided to start watching from the beginning, but if it's going to end up a pile of old fucking rubbish like The Walking Dead I don't know if I can be bothered. I was reliably informed that Game of Thrones was consistently excellent all the way through.

[Chollis]

Nah it only really dramatically nosedives in season 7, s1-s4 are fantastic, and even now at peak silliness it's still better than most other things on telly. The Walking Dead was a festering dog shit after what, one and a half seasons?

[NoSleep]

It's pretty damn good for the first 4 seasons and there's even some good stuff after that. Some of the best stuff is up there in the "holy fuck!" unmissable category. So I'd recommend you to start from the beginning and wait for some shark or other to be jumped somewhere along the line.

[græskar]

I only started getting disillusioned during series 6. I'd say it's still worth watching for the amazing first few series, just make sure to avoid spoilers.

[Dr Sanchez]

By the way I know this was mentioned yesterday but I've just read two more articles on Thrones published today with the phrase "stick the landing" in them, having never heard the phrase before The Bells

What's going on here?

I first noticed it's use in a few articles regarding the last season of Breaking Bad 4-5 years ago and have seen it used sporadically since.

[phantom_power]

She has been harping on about saving civilians since the show started. It's pretty much her mission statement since day one and through to this season.

I would have understood her ruining the red keep and burning Cersei alive but to turn tens of thousands of innocent people to crisps because she was upset?

Nah not having that.

She has always been a bit "ends justifies the means" but with calmer minds guiding her away from the nuclear option. Previously the ends were freedom of slaves but now it is getting her arse on the throne. And she no longer has the calmer minds to stop her

[Dr Sanchez]

She has always been a bit "ends justifies the means" but with calmer minds guiding her away from the nuclear option. Previously the ends were freedom of slaves but now it is getting her arse on the throne. And she no longer has the calmer minds to stop her

But the bells were ringing and she had won. Why torch the innocents when she had not shown previous intent to do so?

I think at least a few minutes of dialogue between the bells ringing and her breakdown would have gone a long way to explaining her decision rather than just seeing her facial expression going a bit crazy and the ensuing slaughter.

I don't have a problem with her character going down that route but I just hoped for a more fleshed out descent into madness.

[Dex Sawash]

By the way I know this was mentioned yesterday but I've just read two more articles on Thrones published today with the phrase "stick the landing" in them, having never heard the phrase before The Bells

What's going on here?

Ubiquitous in US gymnastics  TV coverage for at least 25 years, so very popular phrase with paedophiles.

[kngen]

The show has definitely lost some of its charm and wit in the last couple of seasons, but it's nowhere near as bad as the denizens of Reddit are making out. Even at its worst, it's a fucking masterclass in characterisation, dialogue and structure compared to The Walking Dead. The fact that TWD ended not long before this most recent season started makes it an easy comparison, and by christ the transition was like being allowed to read Tolstoy after six months of Peppa Pig books.

[Dex Sawash]

But the bells were ringing and she had won. Why torch the innocents when she had not shown previous intent to do so?

I think at least a few minutes of dialogue between the bells ringing and her breakdown would have gone a long way to explaining her decision rather than just seeing her facial expression going a bit crazy and the ensuing slaughter.

I don't have a problem with her character going down that route but I just hoped for a more fleshed out descent into madness.

Probably deleted  scenes due to shitness

[sevendaughters]

"going down that route" BITCH she felt nothing when her brother got goldheaded in S1, she has always tip-toed the edges of the black pit of madness, saved only by advisors or that people under her command her escaping something worse or sworn by ancient rite.

[Cuellar]

It was clearly Missandei's beboncing that tipped her over.

Now, whether or not you think that is enough to make someone who'd previously made a massive point of not harming civilians decide to roast thousands of them alive is another question.

[phantom_power]

It should also be noted that in the past the civilians were "her" civilians. The citizens of King's Landing are not that and she may well see them as loyal to and enablers of Cersei. It goes back to her talking to Jon about having to rule by fear because she has no-one this side of the water who loves or trusts her

[Dr Sanchez]

"going down that route" BITCH she felt nothing when her brother got goldheaded in S1, she has always tip-toed the edges of the black pit of madness, saved only by advisors or that people under her command her escaping something worse or sworn by ancient rite.

The same brother who sold her off and said that he'd happily watch a thousand men and their horses rape her.

I can't believe she wasn't really sad when he died. Good point.

[Gregory Torso]

I don't know why people think Dany's heel turn was rushed. She has been barely kept from carnage since the series began, usually talked down by wiser, calmer advisers. Now they are all either dead or she no longer trusts them there is no-one left to curb her more aggressive instincts. Missandei was the last truly loyal confidante and losing her so soon after Jorah could believably tip her over the edge, especially with the smell of war, victory and seared flesh in her nose

She also just lost another of her dragons, and seeing as she can't have kids thanks to a witch cursed womb, that's be like losing a child.

[greenman]

I don't know why people think Dany's heel turn was rushed. She has been barely kept from carnage since the series began, usually talked down by wiser, calmer advisers. Now they are all either dead or she no longer trusts them there is no-one left to curb her more aggressive instincts. Missandei was the last truly loyal confidante and losing her so soon after Jorah could believably tip her over the edge, especially with the smell of war, victory and seared flesh in her nose

Pretty much, she's just about the only character who hasn't had significant comeuppance for morally questionable actions, since the end of the first season anyway.

Add to that two of her closest friends dying, losing another dragon and being rejected by Jon and I don't see the final turn(which started off with killing Lannister solders and then progressed in to just killing) as being that hard to buy. The same with cersei, I mean it was mentioned here days before that episode that she was too weak to be a "big bad" and that's exactly what we saw when her plans came crashing down.

[phantom_power]

People are saying things like "Dany went mad because Jon rejected her. Sexism!" which I think misses the point a bit. Jon was her point of human connection so potentially losing him wasn't just "woman goes mad after man doesn't kiss her" but more "human who has lost their last connection to their humanity thinks "fuck humanity"" or words to that effect. Jon is the straw that broke the camel's back, not the main reason

[NoSleep]

Woman goes mad because her nephew rejects her.

[Alberon]

The seeds of her going bad are there in the books and the show, but like most things it has been rushed. She always expected to be welcomed as a saviour in Westeros even after she was advised otherwise. But with the rush to wrap things up so the showrunners can push off to a galaxy far far away she looks like she's pissed off at being coldshouldered at the Winterfell party.

[MiddleRabbit]

She torched Kings Landing because, as was explicitly stated earlier in the same episode (and had been alluded to from the opening scene of this season) the citizens of Westeros don't like her and, if she can't have their admiration, love and respect, she'll have to make do with their fear.

That, added to Jorah and Missandei's deaths, Varys going right off her because he'd managed to work out what she was like (and likely to do), Tyrion making some ordinary decisions that she went along with but regretted, meant that she had nobody to mitigate her pyromaniacal tendencies which she has always had.  As pointed out previously (the witch who quadraspazzed Drogo, the Tarlys, one of the masters in Meereen, the owner of the unsullied, etc, etc).

Maybe you wouldn't have done it, but maybe your parents weren't brother and sister, whose parents came from a long line of inbreeding with a tendency towards insanity, centred around burning people.


Other than that, the issues that GRRM has evidently had in terms of working out what he's going to do with it all suggest that what he's good at is world creation.  His characters?  Some of them are interesting but plenty aren't.  As far as his plots go, he has good ideas but his way of progressing them always involves complicating them.  Adding intrigue if you like.  Which is great - intruguing even - up to the point when it needs to end.  And he writes long descriptions of food and clothes.  Oh, Tyrion had better lines when he wrote them.

D&D haven't ballsed it up.  They've created a visually interesting world with some interesting characters.  The plotting isn't fantastic but maybe that's not really their fault.  They've done a pretty good job bearing in mind the source material's limitations.

It's alright, GOT.  I don't see how it could have been much better, all things considered.

[mothman]

^ Good post.

[ZoyzaSorris]

Yes, thats the sort of post (and kgen's & greenman's too) Id like to have made if I didnt tragically amuse myself by being an aggressive dickhead. I was just slightly riffing on the ridiculous hyperbole about how dreadful this non-stick landing is by being way over the top myself.

[colacentral]

Pretty much, she's just about the only character who hasn't had significant comeuppance for morally questionable actions, since the end of the first season anyway.

Add to that two of her closest friends dying, losing another dragon and being rejected by Jon and I don't see the final turn(which started off with killing Lannister solders and then progressed in to just killing) as being that hard to buy. The same with cersei, I mean it was mentioned here days before that episode that she was too weak to be a "big bad" and that's exactly what we saw when her plans came crashing down.

That's all correct and I have been cognisant of what the writers have been attempting to convey during the episodes, but within the context of the individual scenes the execution of the heel turn is sloppy and would have been easily fixable. Wasn't the point of Cersei bringing the civilians in that they'd be essentially a human shield? If there had been some gradual escalation - e.g. scorpions launched from within civilian areas that made the killing of children unavoidable, then eventually into "fuck it, I've started, now I'll finish" - then I don't think there'd be an issue. It's essentially a Vietnam allegory at that point, dragon fire in for napalm, Cersei as Ho Chi Minh. But as it is, with the battle cleanly won, you wonder what the whole point of Cersei's plan was if all the military were laid out for Dany to cleanly sweep aside. There would be another kind of story to tell in terms of Cersei's failed plans and hubris, but that doesn't intersect well with the Dany heel turn. Again, it's just a tweak of the plotting required to make a big difference.

[sevendaughters]

The same brother who sold her off and said that he'd happily watch a thousand men and their horses rape her.

I can't believe she wasn't really sad when he died. Good point.

The guy who did it was ACTUALLY raping her!

[MiddleRabbit]

That's all correct and I have been cognisant of what the writers have been attempting to convey during the episodes, but within the context of the individual scenes the execution of the heel turn is sloppy and would have been easily fixable. Wasn't the point of Cersei bringing the civilians in that they'd be essentially a human shield? If there had been some gradual escalation - e.g. scorpions launched from within civilian areas that made the killing of children unavoidable, then eventually into "fuck it, I've started, now I'll finish" - then I don't think there'd be an issue. It's essentially a Vietnam allegory at that point, dragon fire in for napalm, Cersei as Ho Chi Minh. But as it is, with the battle cleanly won, you wonder what the whole point of Cersei's plan was if all the military were laid out for Dany to cleanly sweep aside. There would be another kind of story to tell in terms of Cersei's failed plans and hubris, but that doesn't intersect well with the Dany heel turn. Again, it's just a tweak of the plotting required to make a big difference.

Cersei's point was what you say it was.  She was working on the assumption that Danaerys wouldn't torch a load of civilians because then everybody'd hate her.  She was mistaken.  That's a bit weird, bearing in mind Cersei also torched a load of KL residents with no apparent issue in maintaining her rule.  Cersei also didn't know Danaerys had reached the end of her tether with the lack of appreciation for everything she'd done at great personal cost.  You might call it hubris on Cersei's part because she didn't appear to really have any other plans, hence her doing nothing but standing and watching it all go to shit.  Like Danaery would have at Winterfell, except she had dragons.  People have moaned about that as well.  'Why didn't she do something?'  Like what?  Maybe the Golden Company was another ploy, but as they rapidly became the Golden Brown Company, that didn't work either.

The best laid plans of mice and men and all that...

I don't get the problems, myself.  People seemed to like Ned getting his head lopped off because they didn't expect it because they assumed he'd be a major player when he turned out not to be.  He got executed because he thought the Goldcloaks would defend him and that everybody would just accept Robert's last will and testament.  Now Cersei's (probably) dead due to an entirely believable and banal event (falling masonry from an aerial bombardment) because she thought Danaerys wouldn't burn her human shields or work out how to avoid Scorpion bolts.

Cersei's end came as a result of underestimating the depths that her enemy would stoop to, just the same as Ned.  You could call it ironic, you could call it poetic.  You could call it a heel turn by Danaery, but that'd involve ignoring eight seasons worth of her talk and actions.  Yeah, she liberated the slave city, but as she said, they liberated themselves.  The Kings Landing people didn't so, yeah, fuck'em, she thought.  They don't like me, they won't help themselves, I deserve to be the boss, if they don't love me, they can fear me.

You might not like it, but there was nothing wrong with it: it's been very well signposted.  Literally, by crucified toffs in Essos.