BREXIT GOES BACK AND FIFTH

[Buelligan]

The gilets jaunes thing has already been discussed here, I know some of them (and have known them well for years.  I am not pretending for a moment that that gives me an insight into their raison d'être, it does not, even the gilets don't know what it is because there is not one manifesto). 

Some of the gilets are rational intelligent socialists who believe (and I agree) that the state is isolated from the people (especially those that work at the bottom of the pyramid or those that have no work) and change needs to happen, some are far-right activists who are looking for ways to discredit Macron and the Centre, in anticipation of the next election and with a view to promoting an extreme right coup, some are people that are against any sort of tax or control or rule by the state and want to burn it down, some are people who are just angry about working and paying out and not having anything left at the end of each month or sinking into debt, some are (fill in your own idea here and you'll find a gilet jaune who ticks that box). 

Dressing it up as some sort of united focused movement is being busily done by everyone who wishes to co-opt the might of it and the fear it brings, for their own agenda.  It's fucking bullshit.

And it's also bullshit to complain endlessly about the EU interfering in the domestic life of sovereign states and then get pissy when they don't.

[biggytitbo]

Who's asking them to 'intervene', and how would they? But they're perfectly happy to mouth off about UK or Italian domestic politics when it suits them aren't they? And happy to look the other way and say nothing when it doesn't.


And their enthusiastic and very loud support for some bloke in Venezuela who thinks he's president whilst tacitly supporting the brutal outright fascist tactics against separatists in Spain is hideous double standards.

[Buelligan]

Do you think the Italian government is currently doing a good job and working for peace and stability in Italy and across Europe? 

If you have the right to an opinion, on this, on Venezuela, why shouldn't the EU? 

I don't always agree with every idea the EU promulgates or espouses but I agree more with them, far, far more, than I do cunts like Farage and Le Pen, the Northern League or Five Star Movement (all of whom broadcast their obnoxious ideas frequently).

And it was you who was asking them to "intervene", complaining about comments (interventions) on Venezuela and Italy and complaining about the lack of them on other EU countries.  So it was.

[Howj Begg]

There clearly needs to be a "problems with the EU" thread, or a Rolling EU thread, where we could discuss these issues without the disingenuous idea that they relate to Brexit, as they don't. Because I think that almost everyone here would find common ground on some of the politically suspect statements and actions by the EU.

This thread is about Brexit, so here's a reminder of the  reality about Brexit in a world where Britain trades with European countries, has borders with them, has common political goals with them, and where the world trades with the EU:

Jeremy Gilbert

I think you are right that there is a lack of internationalism to Labour's perspective and a complete lack of internationalist strategy. To my mind this is the fundamental problem with the 'Lexit' idea. Advocates of this position like to present themselves as hard-headed Marxists. In fact it seems to me that their position is entirely 'institutionalist'. They seem to think that leaving the EU will magically liberate us from the complex global configuration of power relations of which the current politics of the EU is merely one expression. It doesn't seem to occur to them for a moment that European finance capital will be just as powerful the day after we leave the EU as it was the day before; and will be just as hostile to Corbyn's domestic agenda. They constantly point out that the EU has certain neoliberal (or, at least, ordoliberal) features baked into its institutions and structure. But exactly the same is true of the institution of theBritish state; and yet they propose to build socialism in the UK by occupying those institutions. There is no argument against staying in the EU and fighting with our allies to transform its politics that cannot be levelled against the very idea of electoral political as a socialist strategy on any scale.

From my perspective the fundamental political question that will face any left-wing UK government is not 'Brexit or not Brexit; soft Brexit or hard Brexit'?. The question will be 'how do we pursue our agenda in the face of persistent neoliberal hegemony across Europe?'. And the only realistic answer will be 'we cant' – we must organise with allies in Europe to break that hegemony' . The question then is 'will leaving the EU make it easier or harder to do that?'. Nobody has presented a convincing case that the answer to what question is 'easier'.

All of the pro-Lexit  narratives that one encounters are basically fantasies of a UK government being able to implement social democracy without having to worry about neoliberal hegemony in Europe. It's not an accident that these almost all come from economists or people in the think-tank world. Those groups of people are always great at coming up with grand blueprints for what they would do in government, and generally are not very good at analysing the complex political sociology of the situation in which they would actually have to try to implement those plans. As far as I can see, Lexit is a version of what I always call ' the Fabian fantasy' – the belief that somehow a group of clever and well-intentioned policy-makers will be able to implement a plan for social reform, without having to mobilise a movement or challenge entrenched concentrations of power in the process.

I think this is simply refusing to face up to the political reality: that the biggest challenge facing the Left today is the fact that capital is an entirely transnational force, while our domestic political imaginaries remain entirely rooted in the 'national-popular'. This is a fact, but it is one that presents an obstacle to all political progress today, and so it must be over

[Buelligan]

There clearly needs to be a "problems with the EU" thread, or a Rolling EU thread, where we could discuss these issues without the disingenuous that they relate to Brexit, as they don't. Becuase I think that almost everyone here would find common ground on some of the politically suspect statements and actions by the EU.

This thread is about Brexit, so here's a reminder of the  reality about Brexit in a world where Britain trades with European countries, has borders with them, has common political goals with them, and where the world trades with the EU:

Jeremy Gilbert

Amen to that.

[biggytitbo]

Why do they not have an opinion about France and Spain then? How come they are silent as 12 Catalan leaders are current undergoing a show trial for 'sedition' for having the temerity to organise a democratic vote? I can only imagine how outraged the EU would be if that was happening in a country 4000 miles away that was none of their business.

[Nice Relaxing Poo]

Five Star Movement.

They lost it after that bloke asked them why they were so fucking crap on Going Live. These people need to get real.

[Buelligan]

I was waiting for that.  Thank you, Nice Relaxing Poo, you have fulfilled my expectations more quickly than my expectations had expected to be fulfilled.

Why do they not have an opinion about France and Spain then? How come they are silent as 12 Catalan leaders are current undergoing a show trial for 'sedition' for having the temerity to organise a democratic vote? I can only imagine how outraged the EU would be if that was happening in a country 4000 miles away that was none of their business.

I don't go on twitter, I'm not that sort of arsehole, however, a brief google of the search terms catalonia and eu provided a fair few results.  Have you tried it?

[biggytitbo]

There clearly needs to be a "problems with the EU" thread, or a Rolling EU thread, where we could discuss these issues without the disingenuous idea that they relate to Brexit, as they don't. Because I think that almost everyone here would find common ground on some of the politically suspect statements and actions by the EU.

That's fine, as long as we abandon the pretense that a major reason to remain is because the EU is a progressive internationalist institution compared to the UK and acknowledge that remain is actually almost entirely motivated by an awkward mix of neo-liberal market economics and middle class cosmopolitanism.

[Paul Calf]

That's fine, as long as we abandon the pretense that a major reason to remain is because the EU is a progressive internationalist institution compared to the UK and acknowledge that remain is actually almost entirely motivated by an awkward mix of neo-liberal market economics and middle class cosmopolitanism.

(Parklife)

We'll do no such thing. Sorry.

[jobotic]

Why do they not have an opinion about France and Spain then? How come they are silent as 12 Catalan leaders are current undergoing a show trial for 'sedition' for having the temerity to organise a democratic vote? I can only imagine how outraged the EU would be if that was happening in a country 4000 miles away that was none of their business.

Totally agree. How does Brexit help with this? What has Jeremy Hunt said about it? Or those you wish to sell our public services to?

[jobotic]

That's fine, as long as we abandon the pretense that a major reason to remain is because the EU is a progressive internationalist institution compared to the UK and acknowledge that remain is actually almost entirely motivated by an awkward mix of neo-liberal market economics and middle class cosmopolitanism.

Can you stop pretending that leave isn't motivated by racism and disaster capitalism then? Cheers

[NoSleep]

I agree that Rajoy's handling of it was appalling, but why do you think it was the place of the EU to be interfering in a member state's domestic affairs?

Just to point out that this is an example of the limits of how far the EU can interfere with a member state, another myth promoted by the pro-Brexiteers.

[Talulah, really!]

Guy Verhofstadt:
Calling another EU country degenerate for not supporting a CIA regime change operation. That's the same EU that remained silent when the French and Spanish state where using brutal fascist bully tactics against their own people isn't it. Really shows where their priorities lay.

Er, except they, if you mean Guy Verhofstadt, didn't as you can see in this Guardian article where he is talking of 'the use of disproportionate violence' which is a clearly critical remark.

Read further on in the article and you see that our lovely tory controlled Foreign Office worked themselves up to a furious outburst of '"The referendum is a matter for the Spanish government and people. We want to see Spanish law and the Spanish constitution respected and the rule of law upheld."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/01/catalan-referendum-eu-leaders-remain-muted-over-police-crackdown

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I agree with Madrid re: the Catalonia situation. No good will come of the dissolving of Spain into micro-states (inevitable once Catalonia goes first), and being entirely honest none of these states possess a national identity, they possess a distinct and important regional one, which Madrid is not stopping them expressing (which isn't to say they couldn't do better either), hence why you go around the country and see Galician flags, Catalonian flags, Asturias flags etc, hence the regional dialects, customs, culture they practise freely. Sometimes being an outsider helps judge situations better than those tangled within it, and from my view its clear the separatist movement is a consequence of the civil war and historic resentments. Yet those parties now seeking independence now were previously fighting for Spain and lost their lives defending Spain.

But yeah focus on some officials shoving and grabbing illegitimate ballot boxes off idiots.

[biggytitbo]

Just to point out that this is an example of the limits of how far the EU can interfere with a member state, another myth promoted by the pro-Brexiteers.

A myth in that it appears to have been made up by you, I don't recall anyone saying the 'EU' should go and physically intervene in France or Spain.

[biggytitbo]

Totally agree. How does Brexit help with this? What has Jeremy Hunt said about it?

Whataboutery.

[Paul Calf]

You don't know what that word means, do you?

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Whataboutery.

Sometimes whataboutery is the most adroit and effective method of exposing hypocrisy or double standards. Just because it's a recognised term for cowardly downplaying of issues doesn't make it a forever invalid technique. It depends how it is being used and what purpose it has. And anyway, you love it when it suits you, hypocrite Putin defender

[biggytitbo]

I agree with Madrid re: the Catalonia situation. No good will come of the dissolving of Spain into micro-states (inevitable once Catalonia goes first), and being entirely honest none of these states possess a national identity, they possess a distinct and important regional one, which Madrid is not stopping them expressing (which isn't to say they couldn't do better either), hence why you go around the country and see Galician flags, Catalonian flags, Asturias flags etc, hence the regional dialects, customs, culture they practise freely. Sometimes being an outsider helps judge situations better than those tangled within it, and from my view its clear the separatist movement is a consequence of the civil war and historic resentments. Yet those parties now seeking independence now were previously fighting for Spain and lost their lives defending Spain.

But yeah focus on some officials shoving and grabbing illegitimate ballot boxes off idiots.

The excessively violent suppression of a peaceful democratic vote isn't something to be supported really is it, regardless of what an outsider has decided is right or wrong.

[NoSleep]

You don't know what that word means, do you?

He doesn't need to know anything; he has a megaphone and shouts at the passing traffic from the kerb.

[Howj Begg]

Just to circle back, "middle class cosmopolitanism" actually = millions of human beings living in other countries currently, with their lives, families, jobs and futures inextricably bound up in those countries, and it is hateful Tory snobbery to define this as something only relevant to people above a certain income bracket or socioeconomic class. No one who says or thinks this is even remotely on the Left of anything or anyone.

Cheers.

[biggytitbo]

Sometimes whataboutery is the most adroit and effective method of exposing hypocrisy or double standards. Just because it's a recognised term for cowardly downplaying of issues doesn't make it a forever invalid technique. It depends how it is being used and what purpose it has. And anyway, you love it when it suits you, hypocrite Putin defender

My usage of the term is flippant (flippant in that its an absolutely bullshit word) and deployed purely for it's rhetorical 'taste of their own medicine' value. If it has a genuine, non fatuously glib usage I have yet to see it.

[Buelligan]

The excessively violent suppression of a peaceful democratic vote isn't something to be supported really is it, regardless of what an outsider has decided is right or wrong.

I thought you were criticising outsiders for not intervening.  Or is it only good if they intervene in ways you, personally, approve of?

What do you want them to do?  Say something, like tut! and then just ignore it.  I think you need to be more explicit if this is such an issue.  Lay down some proper rules on how and when others should express their opinions.

[Paul Calf]

No, I don't know what it means.

F.

[biggytitbo]

Just to circle back, "middle class cosmopolitanism" actually = millions of human beings living in other countries currently, with their lives, families, jobs and futures inextricably bound up in those countries, and it is hateful Tory snobbery to define this as something only relevant to people above a certain income bracket or socioeconomic class. No one who says or thinks this is even remotely on the Left of anything or anyone.

Cheers.

What about the millions of people who are doing shit out of the EU, who couldn't give a toss about the ability to ponce off to another european country whenever they like, or any of those little cherries the middle classes have been bribed with to support a political entity that constitutionally enshrines Thatcherite economics as the one and only way? I wonder if all those millions of people been crushed by the structural inequalities inherent in the European project are middle class cosmopolitans too? Or used to be, until they were curb stomped by the commision to prop up the euro and bankers so can't afford to be anymore? I wonder how cosmopolitan those people living behind the thousands of miles of Trump style 'fortress europe' border walls feel? Or the ones drowned in the med?

[katzenjammer]

[Buelligan]

What about the millions of people who are doing shit out of the EU, who couldn't give a toss about the ability to ponce off to another european country whenever they like, or any of those little cherries the middle classes have been bribed with to support a political entity that constitutionally enshrines Thatcherite economics as the one and only way? I wonder if all those millions of people been crushed by the structural inequalities inherent in the European project are middle class cosmopolitans too? Or used to be, until they were curb stomped by the commision to prop up the euro and bankers so can't afford to be anymore? I wonder how cosmopolitan those people living behind the thousands of miles of Trump style 'fortress europe' border walls feel? Or the ones drowned in the med?

What, you mean, people like me, whose lives and futures are being crushed and curb stomped by people who think that those in Barnsley should get to decide what my rights are? 

[im barry bethel]

Think you're confusing Brussels with Westminster there Biggy

What, you mean, people like me, whose lives and futures are being crushed and curb stomped by people who think that those in Barnsley should get to decide what my rights are? 

And Oz, and Neville, and Barry, Bomber,  not forgetting the electrician who died of the drugs either

[Talulah, really!]

What about the millions of people who are doing shit out of the EU, who couldn't give a toss about the ability to ponce off to another european country whenever they like, or any of those little cherries the middle classes have been bribed with to support a political entity that constitutionally enshrines Thatcherite economics as the one and only way?

Hang on, a couple of pages back the supposed problem of free movement was that we were hoovering* up poor people from other countries to 'pick our fruit and wipe old people's arses' yet now it seems to be only the middle classes who get to benefit.

I wonder how cosmopolitan those people living behind the thousands of miles of Trump style 'fortress europe' border walls feel? Or the ones drowned in the med?

So the leave vote was in favour of more freedom of movement?


*certainly not dysoning!