Charity stream hosted to spite transphobic tosser Graham Linehan [split topic]

[Mango Chimes]

That's a bit of a bold statement, even if qualified by

Yeah, fair enough, the 'pretty much' is perhaps doing too much heavy lifting. I was just thinking if you came to that article cold, he doesn't sound like the git he does on Twitter.

Susie Green, the CEO of Mermaids took her 16-year-old to Thailand to have sexual restructuring surgery done (castration basically). A major plank in trans-activism ideology is that childhood is the best place to address the problem as then you are doing it pre-puberty and avoid all the trauma that brings for those individuals.

Okay. But specifically, is anyone with power and influence is telling (implicitly non-trans) gender non-conforming kids that they are 'in the wrong body'? Because disagree with the above actions or not, and taking it on trust they're true, they aren't the same thing.

[Funcrusher]

Mermaids does appear to advocate much more active interventions like puberty blockers rather than watchful waiting which seems to be the NHS position. Susie Green has certainly been much more active in the case of her own child. Is it possible to distinguish with certainty between trans kids and non-trans gender non-conforming kids?

[jamiefairlie]

Okay. But specifically, is anyone with power and influence is telling (implicitly non-trans) gender non-conforming kids that they are 'in the wrong body'?

How does anyone know if a gender non-conforming kid is trans or non-trans?

[Thursday]

Mermaids does appear to advocate much more active interventions like puberty blockers

Apologies for linking to a twitter thread, but this is related

https://twitter.com/InnuendoStudios/status/1087384496163483648

[Funcrusher]

That person does say that they haven't researched the subject thoroughly, then go on to say authoritatively say that everything Linehan says is wrong. And they start off by talking about puberty blockers, then are talking about HRT. My understanding is that the effects and side effects of puberty blockers are not minor, and that where they've been prescribed to kids who have some medical condition that requires them it's not a decision that's made lightly. Also they prevent the development of sexual organs which makes subsequent surgery more difficult. But likewise I haven't researched the subject thoroughly either.

[Mango Chimes]

Is it possible to distinguish with certainty between trans kids and non-trans gender non-conforming kids?

How does anyone know if a gender non-conforming kid is trans or non-trans?

The one – perhaps only – thing anyone can say is that 100% of trans people identify as trans. And non-trans people don't. (By identify, I mean feel and understand themselves to be.)

What Linehan is saying is this:
"There are lots of gender non-conforming children who may not be trans and may grow up to be gay adults, but who are being told by an extreme, misogynist ideology, that they were born in the wrong body, and anyone who disagrees with that diagnosis is a bigot."

Which is where my Citation Needed question comes in. Is anyone with power and influence telling gender non-conforming kids [who do not identify as trans] that they are 'in the wrong body'?

[jamiefairlie]

The one – perhaps only – thing anyone can say is that 100% of trans people identify as trans. And non-trans people don't. (By identify, I mean feel and understand themselves to be.)

Sure, and for adults I get that (although how you separate out the effects of other mental illness conditions I'm not sure) but how can kids decide that? Kids brains are not developed enough to truly know with any certainty that they are or are not trans and that they will not change their minds as the develop, that's the concern I think.

[Jockice]

Can we please stop feeding utterly mediocre idiots?

Well that's me off then.

[Funcrusher]

The statistic I've seen cited is that something like 80% of children who are gender non-conforming grow up to identify as cis adults, many of them gay or lesbian. This does seem to suggest that some of the enthusiastic parents who think that their 5 year old is trans should perhaps wait a while. Mermaids do seem to lean more towards affirming trans identity rather than watchful waiting.

[Chiefgango]

I'm 99% sure Linehan is either closeted trans or has a massive trans fetish he's ashamed of. Nothing else can possibly explain this level of obsession, and the sadistic nature of the IT crowd clip linked upthread.

[Chiefgango]

The statistic I've seen cited is that something like 80% of children who are gender non-conforming grow up to identify as cis adults, many of them gay or lesbian. This does seem to suggest that some of the enthusiastic parents who think that their 5 year old is trans should perhaps wait a while. Mermaids do seem to lean more towards affirming trans identity rather than watchful waiting.

I want to see this study and the methodology because, as a gender non conforming child, I "resolved" my dysphoria through puberty by denying it, only to have a mental breakdown later in life after which I had to transition.

Living in a transphobic society, it becomes ever clearer as a teenager that being trans is something to be ashamed of, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the subjects of this study simply returned to the closet and repressed their identities - hardly resolving their dysphoria.

[phantom_power]

Mermaids do seem to lean more towards affirming trans identity rather than watchful waiting.

What makes you think that?

[idunnosomename]

I'm 99% sure Linehan is either closeted trans or has a massive trans fetish he's ashamed of. Nothing else can possibly explain this level of obsession, and the sadistic nature of the IT crowd clip linked upthread.

Hope he rips his dick off live on Discord

[Thursday]

That person does say that they haven't researched the subject thoroughly, then go on to say authoritatively say that everything Linehan says is wrong. And they start off by talking about puberty blockers, then are talking about HRT. My understanding is that the effects and side effects of puberty blockers are not minor, and that where they've been prescribed to kids who have some medical condition that requires them it's not a decision that's made lightly. Also they prevent the development of sexual organs which makes subsequent surgery more difficult. But likewise I haven't researched the subject thoroughly either.

It was more related to them not giving them out though, in response to your comment about Mermaids advocating them. Which though they might, it's doesn't seem to be as simple a process of getting hold of them as critics of mermaid might want to suggest.

[Mango Chimes]

Sorry to keep lumping you both together, but I'm a slow thinker/typer.

The statistic I've seen cited is that something like 80% of children who are gender non-conforming grow up to identify as cis adults, many of them gay or lesbian.

Kids brains are not developed enough to truly know with any certainty that they are or are not trans and that they will not change their minds as the develop, that's the concern I think.

That may be a concern, but valid or otherwise it's different to the one Linehan articulated. The 80% figure seems extremely low to me, as I'd expect almost the entirety of gender non-conforming people to not be trans. Depending how you define it, most people could be said to be gender non-conforming one way or the other. There aren't many trans people.

If we're talking about Mermaids (or others) affirming trans identity – whether that's true or a concern or reckless or measured or not – we're already in a very different conversation to the one Linehan's arguing.

[Funcrusher]

It was more related to them not giving them out though, in response to your comment about Mermaids advocating them. Which though they might, it's doesn't seem to be as simple a process of getting hold of them as critics of mermaid might want to suggest.

The quote from a Mermaids source in this article, for example, advocates pretty strongly for speeding up the process:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/03/tavistock-centre-gender-identity-clinic-accused-fast-tracking-young-adults

"The reality we hear from our service users is quite the opposite of the suggestion that services are rushed," said Lui Asquith of the transgender support charity Mermaids. "In most cases, after the initial assessments and because of the rigorous approach to assessment the Tavi implements, there will be a further long period of 'watchful waiting', which can lead to trans children not getting timely support.

"At Mermaids, we see that a delay in necessary, developmentally appropriate or age-specified medical intervention can have a negative effect on the wellbeing of a trans child – an inability to concentrate at school, to engage with their peers, to excel in their hobbies – because they are not getting the support they need in time."

[Funcrusher]

Sorry to keep lumping you both together, but I'm a slow thinker/typer.

That may be a concern, but valid or otherwise it's different to the one Linehan articulated. The 80% figure seems extremely low to me, as I'd expect almost the entirety of gender non-conforming people to not be trans. Depending how you define it, most people could be said to be gender non-conforming one way or the other. There aren't many trans people.

If we're talking about Mermaids (or others) affirming trans identity – whether that's true or a concern or reckless or measured or not – we're already in a very different conversation to the one Linehan's arguing.

Are you contrasting this with Linehan saying that children are 'being told they're in the wrong body', or whatever he's saying? His arguments are more than a little bull in a chinashop, which is why he's now in a bit of a mess.

[Mango Chimes]

Yes, I'm reigning in my comments to be about what he's specifically saying. I don't have the brain space for lots of different arguments and am wary that, as you note, if you're not careful to separate them out you can end up surrounded by smashed crockery. And an amusing amount of Donkey Kong memes.

[Z]

I've seen it positied on here before that Lineham's current stance derives entirely from responding to negative criticism of this episode, and choosing that hill to die on rather than accept he wrote one poorly handled comedy storyline about a trans character (as did many other people) back in the 00s when general ignorance about trans issues was much higher. Unfortunately as ridiculous as it should seem I can believe that this is the case. Or are there any other motivations that led him to his current crusade?

I'm pretty sure he shoehorned a very awkward Guided by Voices reference into one episode after he was surprised so many people approved when he mentioned liking some GBV song on his thread.


Linehan is a pretty good example of what would happen to tons of people if they very gradually gained a large online following, I think. Years upon years of being able to keep yourself in a bubble of people adoring you but the second something happens that forces you to confront people outside that, you lose it all and go fucking nuts.

[Funcrusher]

Didn't he have a bit of a reputation before this for being arsey about any criticism of his writing from fans?

[Z]

Yep, if you said anything that could be construed as negative towards him, his policy was to block you. Definitely a few times he'd send a "maybe you'll write something better" type response first.

[Seagullsim]

I've been following Linehan for a while now (started because of the comedy, stayed for the ongoing drama), and have literally no idea where he stands on this. Some tweets seem to be totally anti-trans, yet others are more focused on the surgery element. He claims to be supporting LGBT rights, yet is overtly critical of both gays and lesbians (both trans and non-trans). I've tried to read the comments to get a better understanding, but there's an equal amount of militant campaigners and woke knobheads to confuse things.

I think it's gone far further than he ever realised now, and he can't find a way to pull back from it all.

[Mango Chimes]

I've been following Linehan for a while now (started because of the comedy, stayed for the ongoing drama), and have literally no idea where he stands on this. Some tweets seem to be totally anti-trans, yet others are more focused on the surgery element. He claims to be supporting LGBT rights, yet is overtly critical of both gays and lesbians (both trans and non-trans).

Well, it's complicated. See, he goes after women online because he's so against harassing women online. He dislikes men lecturing people on feminism so much that he, a man, is latterly devoting his life lecturing people about it. He's a huge advocate of listening for women, except those who disagree with him. He stands up for lesbians, like when he barracked the lesbian editor of Britain's largest lesbian magazine. He's supportive of trans people, but against amending the GRA to allow self-identification because he doesn't think people should be allowed to call themselves women if they still have a penis, or men if they menstruate, and at the same time he's against gender affirmation surgery which he calls mutilation. He thinks it's wonderful that trans people are finding more acceptance lately and will mock people for highlighting their chosen pronouns. He's very much against people selectively highlighting stories to demonise a minority, which is why he constantly selectively etc.

He probably thinks spending too much time on Twitter is a bad thing.

[ToneLa]

Linehan just stinks of an old dude having a go at youth.

I await his next sitcom

[bigfatheart]

Didn't he have a bit of a reputation before this for being arsey about any criticism of his writing from fans?

And yet weirdly, if your only exposure to him was from the Father Ted commentaries you'd think he was an overly self-critical perfectionist. He really is a mass of contradictions.

[Jockice]

Here's the programme he was on in Ireland last night. He's about 23 minutes in. https://www.rte.ie/player/series/prime-time/SI0000000825?epguid=IH000368163

Posted without comment. But I wish he'd get involved in disability campaigns. Because of course people who have never personally experienced such a thing are always much more qualified to speak about it than those who have.

[ajsmith2]

And yet weirdly, if your only exposure to him was from the Father Ted commentaries you'd think he was an overly self-critical perfectionist. He really is a mass of contradictions.

Yeah, as far as I recall on the FT commentaries he spends ages self flagellating about how many regrets and misgivings  he has about episodes I always thought were flawless classics until he took them apart. But any outside criticism of his work and it's block, snark pile on, as sure as night follows day. It's mental: I think he's the most extreme example of Twitter really bringing out the very worst in someone. Facebook might be the worst for data stealing etc but I think twitter is the very worst of social media for the insidiously wicked things it can do to a human consciousness, and human interactions in general.

[Jerzy Bondov]

I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like to be trans. Yes I hate my body but it's a lot more complicated than that isn't it? I think I'm pretty imaginative but really I don't know what it's like at all. Wish I could help in some way really. Good thing we've got Graham Linehan so we don't need to listen to people who are actually trans and try to get them the help they're asking for.

[jobotic]

His "traitors" tweet is astonishing.

Wonder what he'd think of a white person calling a black person an Uncle Tom.

[Mango Chimes]

Wonder what he'd think of a white person calling a black person an Uncle Tom.

He calls women who disagree with him handmaidens and Aunt Lydia, so naturally I'd imagine he'd be outraged. He is vocally against men using misogynistic slurs.