Author Topic: US coup in Venezuela  (Read 7717 times)

dr beat

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2019, 10:49:58 PM »
I find it interesting that Juan Guaido went to George Washington University.

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2019, 10:59:38 PM »
not democratically at all mate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election

Fucking hell, articles like that are exactly why it's so difficult to have a sensible debate about issues in places like Venezuela (where the governments of Chávez and Maduro have contributed plenty to their own problems but so little is said about the external actors deliberately exerting such massive pressure on them).

Literally the first quote i randomly scrolled to when looking up evidence of why the election was unfair, i landed on this:

Quote from: Wikipedia
On 1 May, in Cojedes state, Maduro threatened taking action against supermarkets and food centers nationwide if they increased the prices of products in the following days, declaring that after the 20 May election "I'll be president anyway...by hook or by crook"".[87][88]

Christ, he said that? He's just openly admitting he's rigging the election! I mean, sure there's an ellipsis in that quote, but i'm sure it's only omitting irrelevant details. Let's just have a look at the sources anyway. Huh, they use the same ellipsis, they don't seem to have the original quote. And when i google, that ellipsis is showing up in all the top results. Oh hey, i've found the original! Let's have a look at Maduro openly incriminating himself:

Quote from: Nicolás Maduro
"Después del 20 de mayo yo voy a ser presidente igual. Si ustedes siguen aumentándole los precios a lo loco al pueblo se van a ver la cara conmigo y voy a hacer justicia. Les doy la última oportunidad, sino la operación Manos de Papel irá más allá", dijo Maduro.

"O es por las buenas o es por las malas. Pero las mafias económicas que están robando al pueblo y cada vez que yo apruebo un bono, el aumento de salario, el cestaticket, le roban al pueblo."

The Wikipedia quote just included the bold parts and cut everything else out. My rough translation of the whole thing (others' input appreciated) would be:

Quote
"After May 20th, i'll still be president. If you [supermarkets] keep increasing prices like mad, you're taking me for a fool and i'll deliver justice. I'm giving you one more chance, or Operation Paper Hands [government programme which it claims is for fighting corruption] will do the rest."

"Either we can play nice or we can play nasty. But the economic mafias are robbing the people, and every time i approve an increase in benefits and the minimum wage increase, they rob from the people."

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2019, 10:59:48 PM »
Little Venezuela laying down the gauntlet.

https://youtu.be/UlS3ppI_KL0

Blumf

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2019, 11:02:28 PM »
For the historically challenged in US involvement with Central and Southern American politics, Banana Republic isn't just a clothing store

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

biggytitbo

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2019, 11:05:37 PM »
The social media arm of the American empire is doing their bit

Quote
BREAKING: Facebook and Instagram have removed Venezuelan Dictator Nicolás Maduro’s verification sign.

How will he manage? Also, he's a full on dictator now, watch the entire media now singing from the exact same hymn sheet.

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2019, 11:10:08 PM »
It's amazing. After Iraq, Libya and Syria etc you'd think it would play out differently but nope. The slow and dependable march into madness will continue.


Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2019, 11:55:14 PM »
For the historically challenged in US involvement with Central and Southern American politics, Banana Republic isn't just a clothing store

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic

A re-read of The Trial of Henry Kissinger is well overdue.

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2019, 12:27:33 AM »
Just done a browse of the most vocal mainstream anti-Trump media outlets. Prett much all (CNN excluded) are running with story of Maduro forcing 72 US diplomats to leave and Maduro’s wish to break US relationships.

It’s certainly a sympathetic spin to Trump’s words here.

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2019, 03:58:36 AM »
Yeah. The first thing I thought of when I heard about this is that it’s Trump’s critics who are at fault for not criticising him enough. Bizarro world logic.

Not really, if Trump ends up taking action it will be in an environment that exists because most of the democrats and attendant media have done their part in creating it for many years. If this was a party political issue with a very strong divide rather than just one side being a bit more hawkish than the other then it would be far harder to sell.

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2019, 04:02:50 AM »
Looking at the twitter feeds of the favs to represent the Dems in 2020 and alarmingly quiet. Ro Khanna on the ball as usual to be fair.

I am curious to see how the neocons approach this, Kristol and Boot must both have serious horns at the thought of regime change, but have now marketed themselves as the "moderate" Republicans.

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2019, 05:08:01 AM »
https://twitter.com/AndrewGillum/status/1088151991761715201

Thought this guy was meant to be a progressive Dem?

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2019, 05:40:03 AM »
It looked like Ukraine in 1933 in the video i saw the other day, i hate Maudro, im conflicted, all the images of emmaciated  starving people freaked me out.Pictures of children eating out of bins. Was this even  the case in Iraq.
The murder rate is almost as bad a Syria it's insane.
However the continent does not belong to the US, I want a more multi polar world. Latin America is not the middle East,  I hated Saddam and I hate Maduro, I'm conflicted.

KennyMonster

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2019, 05:57:44 AM »
The problem might be nuanced but the solution is simple. As flawed as it is go through the UN. Have supervised elections and confirm legitimacy of either candidate.



They did this in recent years, even ex US president Jimmy Carter declared that their elections were fair,

It didn't stop W Bush's, Obama's and Trump's governments imposing trade sanctions and trying to destabilise Chavez and Maduro and get wealthy puppet presidents in power.

If I was in Maduro's position I might be inclined to batten down the hatches a little bit too.

Paul Calf

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2019, 06:32:34 AM »
I dunno, when the world's biggest superpower induces a state of emergency in a other country and then gets the most powerful and compliant media establishment in the world to blame it all on the government they're actively trying to destroy nuance tends to become indistinguishable from the lower end of propoganda doesn't it? That's part of the problem I guess.


The best position is in fact the least nuanced - the US should fuck off.

Are we talking about Brexit again?

biggytitbo

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2019, 06:54:01 AM »
https://twitter.com/AndrewGillum/status/1088151991761715201

Thought this guy was meant to be a progressive Dem?


However progressive these people claim to be, stuff like this  tends to expose that across the 'spectrum' they are all devotees of the empire.

biggytitbo

  • WHAT ABOUT THE GODDAM JAFFA CAKES ASSWIPE
    • theunredacted
Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2019, 07:05:05 AM »
Either the US improbably care about poverty and democracy or...

Quote
Venezuela published the price of its oil and fuel in Chinese currency on Friday in what it called an effort to free the socialist-run country from the "tyranny of the dollar," echoing a plan recently announced by President Nicolas Maduro
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1BQ2D1

Have we had a peep from AOC or Bernie that this is bad yet, or are they going to abstain?

Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2019, 07:39:18 AM »
They did this in recent years, even ex US president Jimmy Carter declared that their elections were fair,

It didn't stop W Bush's, Obama's and Trump's governments imposing trade sanctions and trying to destabilise Chavez and Maduro and get wealthy puppet presidents in power.

If I was in Maduro's position I might be inclined to batten down the hatches a little bit too.
From what I understand the opposition did not want there to be UN supervisors last time. So this time to get some legitimacy.

Also Truedeau sucking Trump's asshole, some great progressive saviour.

Paul Calf

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2019, 07:55:18 AM »
Fuck. Joke showbiz plutocrat President fucking Latin America, two new Ghostbusters films, evil despotic psychopath woman in Number 10...all we need is another Rambo and it’ll basically be the 1980s again.

ZoyzaSorris

  • if you can smell me it's too late
Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2019, 07:56:05 AM »
the wealthier ones weren't in the street protesting (and sometimes being killed) because of the lack of food and medecine.

everything's nuanced these days.

Yes, most protests have been right wingers from the middle and upper classes (some of the continent’s most feral and unpleasant, and that is saying something if you know anything about the region). There have been massive counter protests from pro-government sectors of the population.

Funny how these sort of things always happen in any latin american country that isnt wholeheartedly a US client. Could be coincidence of course.

ZoyzaSorris

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2019, 07:59:57 AM »

However progressive these people claim to be, stuff like this  tends to expose that across the 'spectrum' they are all devotees of the empire.

Yep, things like this and Syria show the alt-centrists are as big a problem as the likes of Trump. And because they pass themselves of as superficially reasonable probably more dangerous.

ZoyzaSorris

  • if you can smell me it's too late
Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2019, 08:06:25 AM »
It looked like Ukraine in 1933 in the video i saw the other day, i hate Maudro, im conflicted, all the images of emmaciated  starving people freaked me out.Pictures of children eating out of bins. Was this even  the case in Iraq.
The murder rate is almost as bad a Syria it's insane.
However the continent does not belong to the US, I want a more multi polar world. Latin America is not the middle East,  I hated Saddam and I hate Maduro, I'm conflicted.

Amazes me after everything we’ve seen unfold in front of our eyes, from Iraq and Libya to Syria and Yemen, from Chile and Nicaragua and Honduras to Paraguay and Brazil, that people take whatever is said about enemies of the US at face value. Quite terrifying really.

biggytitbo

  • WHAT ABOUT THE GODDAM JAFFA CAKES ASSWIPE
    • theunredacted
Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2019, 08:51:37 AM »
The EU, conspicuously silent about the brutal tactics used to oppress protests and democracy in Catalonia and France, falling over themselves to support Trump's coup 5000 miles away -


biggytitbo

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2019, 09:00:30 AM »
Another EU official cheerleading another CIA coup in South America.


Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2019, 09:08:56 AM »
Has the UK government recognised the US' new government yet? I bet Boris has.


pigamus

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2019, 09:10:30 AM »
Have you seen the Venezuela story on the front page of BBC News this morning?

I mean, I've seen some candidates for Up the Arse Corner in my time, but really...

KennyMonster

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2019, 10:01:46 AM »
Have you seen the Venezuela story on the front page of BBC News this morning?

I mean, I've seen some candidates for Up the Arse Corner in my time, but really...

No because I'm boycotting The BBC, the cuntess Bruce was the last straw.

KennyMonster

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2019, 10:03:49 AM »
The Guardian has mentioned that RUSSIA are standing alongside Maduro now, so its goodbye to rational debate now.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 10:51:19 AM by KennyMonster »

biggytitbo

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2019, 12:31:46 PM »
Indeed:


Petey Pate

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2019, 01:01:10 PM »
Has there ever been an coup in modern history where the new leader is formally recognised before the old leader is officially ousted? This seems quite extraordinary that the US government (and by extension, Canada, the EU, etc) is already declaring Juan Guaido as the president of Venezuela with barely any pretense for his legitimacy.

I spent some time studying coup d'états carried out by Britain in the Middle East during the 1960s and recall seeing one Foreign Office document proposing plans to replace the ruler of Abu Dhabi (Sheikh Shakhbut, who was eventually removed in 1966). One idea that was proposed but swiftly rejected was the idea of withdrawing recognition and immediately granting it to his appointed successor. And this was in an autocratic monarchy, where the legitimacy of rule is not as tangible as it is in a democratic country like Venezuela. It just seems bizarre that they would be openly brazenly about it in this way.

Flouncer

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Re: US coup in Venezuela
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2019, 01:05:47 PM »
Has there ever been an coup in modern history where the new leader is formally recognised before the old leader is officially ousted? This seems quite extraordinary that the US government (and by extension, Canada, the EU, etc) is already declaring Juan Guaido as the president of Venezuela with barely any pretense for his legitimacy.

It does seem as though the Americans are trying to assert an alternative version of reality and if enough people buy into it, it will effectively become the case.